And Rolf accused me of throwing a fit??? 
ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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:kookoo:
Rolf Ernst
New member
Knight--What response can OVers or arminians give to 2Sam 24:1-24?
Would one of them like to explain these verses, or should I? I would be happy to see one of them explain them if they can. If not, I will drop a few hints.
Would one of them like to explain these verses, or should I? I would be happy to see one of them explain them if they can. If not, I will drop a few hints.
Rolf Ernst
New member
Knight, #561--Sorry if I upset you, friend. I was just trying to be forceful with my points. They are worthy of being made clearly. Some things in them are not often contemplated by us, and we ALL need to realize what we are in ourselves without him. That can quieten any complaints we may be inclined to make against the high and holy one who inhabits eternity.
Your arrogance is appalling.
Please enlighten all us dullards with you wisdom and grant us the privilege of your Biblical understanding. Anything we said would I'm sure miss the entire point anyway, right?
Resting in Him,
Clete
P.S. I’ll bet that you cannot contrive an interpretation of this chapter of Scripture that is in conflict with both the Open View and Armenianism.
Rolf,
I guess the conclusion that I must draw from your answer is that you think that God will act outside the boundaries of His own character.
You have already agreed to the facts that the Father and Son have identical characters. You have already agreed to the fact that their characters are based in selflessness. You have already agreed to the definitions of selfishness and selflessness. Those things have already been established. Are you backing away from those agreed upon facts? If not then you have to face where those facts lead you when you say that God ordained sin, that He would ordain a rape, that He would ordain that a person get cancer.
If you would not like to go where the facts lead you then you must somehow destroy the basis of those facts. You must somehow demonstrate that the Father and Son do not have identical characters, that their characters are not based in selflessness, that harming a person in order to make yourself look good is not selfishness.
That is where a reasonable argument lies, not in the approach that you have taken. However, you know as well as I do that I have drawn a very logical conclusion from the facts that were established. That you do not like that conclusion does not take away from its truthfulness.
I guess the conclusion that I must draw from your answer is that you think that God will act outside the boundaries of His own character.
You have already agreed to the facts that the Father and Son have identical characters. You have already agreed to the fact that their characters are based in selflessness. You have already agreed to the definitions of selfishness and selflessness. Those things have already been established. Are you backing away from those agreed upon facts? If not then you have to face where those facts lead you when you say that God ordained sin, that He would ordain a rape, that He would ordain that a person get cancer.
If you would not like to go where the facts lead you then you must somehow destroy the basis of those facts. You must somehow demonstrate that the Father and Son do not have identical characters, that their characters are not based in selflessness, that harming a person in order to make yourself look good is not selfishness.
That is where a reasonable argument lies, not in the approach that you have taken. However, you know as well as I do that I have drawn a very logical conclusion from the facts that were established. That you do not like that conclusion does not take away from its truthfulness.
Rolf Ernst
New member
I'll just leave it up to you then, Clete, to show how you are without any difficulty by these verses.
You say my arrogance is appalling--at least I do not castigate others like OVers and Arminians do as they ridicule (without justification) the Reformed faith and those who hold it. How many times have OVers scoffed at one of us when our point was valid, but our wording or meanings were just unclear. Have you people ever failed to use any opening to misunderstand what we have intended?
I understand why you think that is necessary--God reigns, and those who argue against that reign are behind a very large 8 ball. You have to take ever chance you get. You very desperately need a bank shot.
You say my arrogance is appalling--at least I do not castigate others like OVers and Arminians do as they ridicule (without justification) the Reformed faith and those who hold it. How many times have OVers scoffed at one of us when our point was valid, but our wording or meanings were just unclear. Have you people ever failed to use any opening to misunderstand what we have intended?
I understand why you think that is necessary--God reigns, and those who argue against that reign are behind a very large 8 ball. You have to take ever chance you get. You very desperately need a bank shot.
drbrumley
Well-known member
Z Man, do you actually listen to yourself?
Z Man, do you actually listen to yourself?
ZMan,
I only have one question to this.
Everything means everything, right?
That includes thoughts, actions, etc...
Then wouldnt it be reasonable to include thoughts along with the "everything?"
I mean everything is everything, right?
DRB
Z Man, do you actually listen to yourself?
ZMan,
I only have one question to this.
Everything means everything, right?
That includes thoughts, actions, etc...
Then wouldnt it be reasonable to include thoughts along with the "everything?"
I mean everything is everything, right?
DRB
Z Man
New member
Re: Z Man, do you actually listen to yourself?
Re: Z Man, do you actually listen to yourself?
But I believe that God does decree everything, and our thoughts are not included. God does not decree our very thoughts Himself, but He does influence them.
If God decreed our very thoughts, then we would not exist. Only God would exist in this world. As the saying goes, "I think, therefore I am"...
Re: Z Man, do you actually listen to yourself?
When you ask "does God decrees everything" and mean it to include that He thinks our thoughts for us, then no, He does not decree everything as you would say.
But I believe that God does decree everything, and our thoughts are not included. God does not decree our very thoughts Himself, but He does influence them.
If God decreed our very thoughts, then we would not exist. Only God would exist in this world. As the saying goes, "I think, therefore I am"...
Zman
- Or -
God makes sure the rapist wants to rape.
- Or -
God only directs our steps when we do good things.
So if a rapist changes their mind, and wills not to rape, but God directs his steps and he rapes, then is God or the rapist responsible for the rape?
- Or -
God makes sure the rapist wants to rape.
- Or -
God only directs our steps when we do good things.
drbrumley
Well-known member
I know the popular opinion is the interpretation that God had David moved to number Isreal. And because David did this, David sinned. But is this really the case?
If this is your view Rolf, then can you expound on this? 2 Samual doesnt say what David's sin was and also doesn't say why God was upset with Isreal. Maybe I'm missing something, but I just don't see it.
DRB
Rolf Ernst
New member
DrBrumley, post #573--remember Moses in Egypt and the Scripture saying there that both God and Pharoah hardened pharoah's heart.
Then turn to 1 Chr. 21:1-30 to compare it with 2 Sam. 24. I don't want to say more, because with these two comparisons, you can figure it out for yourself, and I think you will enjoy scripture more if I speak less and you discover answers for yourself. You will find that just a hint rather than an explanation will be good for your own heart and make your studies more enjoyable. What you see in Romans one will also help explain God's ways in regard to wickedness.
There are other places like these in Scripture, and by them we can gain an insight into the way God's wisdom is so far above and beyond satan's ability to overcome, and how He fulfills all His purpose in spite of His strongest enemies--all the while NOT BEING GUILTY OF SELFISHNESS, SIN OR ANY OTHER VILE CHARGE MEN WANT TO MAKE AGAINST HIM.
Then turn to 1 Chr. 21:1-30 to compare it with 2 Sam. 24. I don't want to say more, because with these two comparisons, you can figure it out for yourself, and I think you will enjoy scripture more if I speak less and you discover answers for yourself. You will find that just a hint rather than an explanation will be good for your own heart and make your studies more enjoyable. What you see in Romans one will also help explain God's ways in regard to wickedness.
There are other places like these in Scripture, and by them we can gain an insight into the way God's wisdom is so far above and beyond satan's ability to overcome, and how He fulfills all His purpose in spite of His strongest enemies--all the while NOT BEING GUILTY OF SELFISHNESS, SIN OR ANY OTHER VILE CHARGE MEN WANT TO MAKE AGAINST HIM.
Z Man
New member
You cannot charge God with evil, no matter what He does.
Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things.
The rapist is still responsible. There are numerous things that I will not to do, but I do them anyways. And there are things that I wish to do, and yet, I don't do them.
Romans 7:15
For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
Oh this is just brilliant! You want me to (or expect that I will) build a case against myself! Now I think I've seen it all!
The way I explain how this passage gives me (an Open Theist, not an Arminian) no difficulty, is that it means exactly what it says. EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS!!!
Here let me say it again,
IT MEANS EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS!!!
Just read it. A third grader could understand it.
And by the way, I do not castigate people without cause. I gave Z Man a hard time in one post because he seemed to be saying that everyone before Noah's flood had free will. When it was clear that he was not saying that, I left it alone. When he gave a pitifully poor answer as to why he was saved, I pursued it because I think that to be a more important issue than whether or not God gave some woman I don't know cancer. As long as he responded I continued, when he stopped responding, I let it drop.
This is my normal mode of operation on this board as anyone here can attest. Generally I attack ideas not people and when I attack someone personally I'm generally quick to repent (unless they're a homo).
What you need to get into your head is that this is a debate and the only way we have of communicating our points is by what we can see on this computer screen, most of which is words. So while I agree that an effort should be made to remain on the same page as the one who wrote the post we are reading, it is incumbent upon the messenger to convey the message in such a why as those receiving that message understand what is being said. It is not up to me to read your or Z Man's mind. All I have to work with is what you guys type up for me to read. If I or someone else misunderstands something then clarify and get over it. All this whining about being misunderstood is sickening!
And one last point. You do understand that we (Knight, myself and others) are not ACTUALLY accusing God of wrong doing, right?
No one here would be that foolish. God does not, cannot do wrong. Indeed, this is our whole point! It is our position that if God does what Calvinism teaches then God has done wrong and that therefore Calvinism cannot be teaching correctly. The immutability of God's righteous character is what makes Calvinism impossible.
Resting in Him,
Clete
P.S. Who ever said that God doesn’t reign?
Sometimes a smilie is worth a thousand words.
Z Man
New member
Clete,
You just said that 'no one here would be foolish to say that God does wrong', but then go on to say that the Calvinists represent a God who does wrong. Do you honestly think any of us who believe in 'Calvinism' believe God does wrong? Of course we don't.
My question to you is what in the Calvinistic belief makes you believe that God does 'wrong'?