ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Originally posted by Z Man

Clete,

You just said that 'no one here would be foolish to say that God does wrong', but then go on to say that the Calvinists represent a God who does wrong. Do you honestly think any of us who believe in 'Calvinism' believe God does wrong? Of course we don't.

My question to you is what in the Calvinistic belief makes you believe that God does 'wrong'?
Well Z Man... you claim that when God does morally wrong things they are not morally wrong because it was God who did them.

Right?

And if this weren't strange enough you also believe God decree's all actions and therefore..... how can any action being morally wrong if God is responsible for all things?

Which leads us back the questions I asked you several pages back...

1. Z Man is there such a thing as evil?
And if so how do you define it?

2. Has any evil or bad thing ever happened in the history of creation that was not directly orchestrated (decreed) by God?
And if so, can you give me an example?
 

Big Finn

New member
P.S. Who ever said that God doesn’t reign?

I see you noticed that straw man too, Clete.

I think we all agree that God reigns. The question before us is not does God reign, but in what manner does God reign. How does He act? How does He treat His subjects. The concept of sovereignty does not require God to keep absolute control over each and every action of each and every person within His realm or His sovereignty is lost. That is a fallacy.
 

1Way

+OL remote satellite affiliate
What you are about to experience might seem like a tall tale that no one would believe, but, the strange truth is that strange things happen all the time, consider this somewhat typical Cal-minian as the story unfolds...

do di do du

do di do du

do di do du

do di do du

Z Man's post 575 is morally unintelligible. They walk both sides of the fence and strive to not clarify one way or another.
  • Z Man

    has ambiguously turned himself into

    Ambivalent Man.
God decrees everything
  • God does not decree our thoughts
  • God is sovereign over everything
  • Man is responsible even though God makes it all happen
They rip bible passages that say that God does evil, and then claim that He does not do evil, then claim that He does all things...

Z Man even admitted that he can not make rational sense of his views, yet because he believes this irrationality is (somehow) biblical, he believes it.

God does all things, He does not control the mind, He does evil, He does not do evil, He decrees everything, why must our thoughts be included in everything(?).

do di do du

do di do du

do di do du

do di do du
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by Knight

Well Z Man... you claim that when God does morally wrong things they are not morally wrong because it was God who did them.
When did I ever claim that God does morally wrong things? What can God do that is morally wrong? What have I said God does which makes Him responsible for being 'wrong'?
Wrong.
And if this weren't strange enough you also believe God decree's all actions and therefore..... how can any action being morally wrong if God is responsible for all things?
If we do the act, it's wrong. God using us and decreeing that we do the act is not wrong - how can it be? How can He be wrong?
Which leads us back the questions I asked you several pages back...

1. Z Man is there such a thing as evil?
And if so how do you define it?
What Christian DOES NOT believe in evil? Evil is anything that does not or was not intended to glorify God.
2. Has any evil or bad thing ever happened in the history of creation that was not directly orchestrated (decreed) by God?
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.


There's your answer...
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by 1Way

What you are about to experience might seem like a tall tale that no one would believe, but, the strange truth is that strange things happen all the time, consider this somewhat typical Cal-minian as the story unfolds...

do di do du

do di do du

do di do du

do di do du

Z Man's post 575 is morally unintelligible. They walk both sides of the fence and strive to not clarify one way or another.
  • Z Man

    has ambiguously turned himself into

    Ambivalent Man.
God decrees everything
  • God does not decree our thoughts
  • God is sovereign over everything
  • Man is responsible even though God makes it all happen
They rip bible passages that say that God does evil, and then claim that He does not do evil, then claim that He does all things...

Z Man even admitted that he can not make rational sense of his views, yet because he believes this irrationality is (somehow) biblical, he believes it.

God does all things, He does not control the mind, He does evil, He does not do evil, He decrees everything, why must our thoughts be included in everything(?).

do di do du

do di do du

do di do du

do di do du
Mock all you want, but the TRUTH still stands.

And by the way, no one here that I know of has said that God does evil. That's a strawman you OV'ers built against the 'Calvinistic' view...
 

1Way

+OL remote satellite affiliate
Z Man - What, now God is a "nobody"? You folks have quoted God saying that He does evil DESPITE the fact that is a bad translation in order to propagate this confused immorality ambiguity stuff.

Z Man, I have quoted you agreeing with me after many posts where you agreed with all I had said which was a summary of our previous like 2 dozen posts, ,,, and now I find you reverting back to the same sloppy and errant thinking again. So, what I have learned from you is, that if you say you agree, that is code for sqaut.

If you will not move to clarify these several and huge conflicts, I do not need to mock you, you are simply presenting nonsense.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Originally posted by Z Man

Clete,

You just said that 'no one here would be foolish to say that God does wrong', but then go on to say that the Calvinists represent a God who does wrong. Do you honestly think any of us who believe in 'Calvinism' believe God does wrong? Of course we don't.

My question to you is what in the Calvinistic belief makes you believe that God does 'wrong'?

If I make my daughter go outside and stay until 11:00pm and then punish her because she wasn't in bed by 8:30pm like she's knows she's supposed to be, then I am guilty of child abuse, and I am most likely insane. No one would deny that I was guilty of wrong doing, yet this is precisely what Calvinism says that God does with us.
Calvinism teaches that God is arbitrary, that He has created people specifically and only for the purpose of being punished. Punished not for what they have done but punished because they exist to be punished. Indeed, they have only done what they have been programmed to do from before time began. Their existence in Hell is just the final step in the preprogrammed (predestined) existence.
The same is also true of those who don't go to Hell. Those who love God don't do so because they chose to do so of their own volition. On the contrary, their belief was simply the next item on God's predestined, arbitrary agenda.
The point is that both love and justice CANNOT be arbitrary. Love is simply meaningless without the ability to choose for one's self who you will and will not love. And justice (that is punishment and reward) that is handed down in an arbitrary manner is not justice at all; indeed it is injustice by definition.
Thus, if God is as the Calvinist say, then He is unjust and most likely insane. And since we all know for certain that God is not unjust or insane we can say with equal certainty that Calvinism is wrong.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Hilston

Active member
Hall of Fame
To all,

Please forgive the delayed reply. I started a thread to answer the question of what is the difference between "decree" and "will" (same forum).

Jim
 

Rolf Ernst

New member
Arminians and OVers spend half their time insisting on their right to their free will, BUT when it comes to the evils which come from within man, from the lusts of their own hearts, suddenly they have a brain seizure and amnesia. Now they SUDDENLY don't have free will. NOW it is--GOD MADE ME DO IT, SO GOD IS EVIL. GOD ORDAINED IT, SO I HAD NO CHANCE--ALL GOD'S FAULT.

Now they can no longer remember that they have free will. Now they are obsessed with the false accusation against God that He "forced" them. Strange how one minute they insist on a will so free that God's will must give way to THEIR will, but in the next moment they commit iniquity, and SUDDENLY they are creatures without the free will they shortly before insisted upon. They believe the will of the eternal, immutable God must give way to the vain, momentary will of creatures whose life is nothing more than a vapor.

They dare think that God's OWN will and His immutable decree must be suspended upon their SUPERIOR RIGHT to be, shall we say, SUPRAwilling creatures? Therefore, they think, (ha, ha!!) the future must be open. How vain! They actually believe God has empowered them to stand at the helm of history, and that He, the God of history, must stand back when they demand that He do so. The future of all must be open--left to be determined by their vain frolics. Really now! They have had too many trips to Disney World.

The truth is, God has ordained (decreed) WHATSOEVER COMES TO PASS. If He has not decreed it, it shall not--will never--come to pass. If He has decreed it, it shall, without fail, come to pass; and it will do so--in accord with His providential rule--precisely at the appointed time.


It is true that we all have free will, but our free will is without power against His decree. Against the brass mountains of His decree and providences, any will of man that is not in accord with His decree from everlasting is crushed to powder--"The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing. He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect. The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of His heart to all generations. He frustrates the devices of the crafty so that their hands cannot carry out their plans. He catches the wise in their own craftiness, and the counsel of the cunning comes quickly upon them." (Ps.33:10,11).

Many times, the devices of the crafty which He frustrates involve the evil that they would otherwise do. Then there are times when His common grace, and longsuffering are at an end and, as judgement, He gives them up (Rom. 1:24,26,28; Ps 81:10,11) to walk according to "the lusts of their hearts" (Ro.1:24)

If men got what they deserved, there would never at any time be a restraint upon their wickedness, and life on earth would become a veritable hell. God could have been just to decree that He would never exercise common grace to restrain the evils in the hearts of men. Grace is His to dispense as He pleases. It is a gift, and FALLEN, GUILTY CREATURES have no claim on it.


If He HAD decreed that sinful fallen creatures be allowed to walk forever in the lusts of their hearts, as their wicked state deserved, they would have no right to complain against Him. He would then have given them free will to the utmost, and He could have gotten glory to Himself by demonstrating His just wrath against every one of their transgressions; but He is gracious and longsuffering and therefore often delivers men from the evils of their own nature.

Let every OVer and Arminian understand this: "let no man say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by god", for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full grown, brings forth death." Jas.1:13-15

The fact that He has decreed that wicked men shall at times be given up to walk in the lusts of their own hearts DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE IN ANYWAY SHARES THEIR GUILT. That would mean that EVERY guilt of man is also His guilt.

You want free will? You got it!! Don't charge OTHERS with the wickedness of the deeds you CHOOSE to do with that free will!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"God has made all things for Himself--even the wicked for the day of evil."

"Even the wrath of man shall praise you, and the remainder of wrath you will restrain."
 
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Rolf Ernst

New member
Clete--what if you don't MAKE make your daughter go outside? What if you give her free will and she chooses to walk, contrary to your counsels, "in the lusts of her own heart?" What THEN Clete?? What then, Cletie???????????????????????????
 
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Rolf Ernst

New member
Clete, #587--I guess some people are just incapable of understanding. He decrees that his daughter have free will, then when she goes outside (of her own free will) against His counsel, he thinks her MADE her go outside. Poor soul!

How is your family doing, Clete??
 

Rolf Ernst

New member
What's the matter Cletie, can't you frame an argument against God's sovereignty without misrepresenting it??

Do you think god will let you escape judgement for bearing false witness against His word???????????????????????????????????
 

Rolf Ernst

New member
God's eternal purpose is according to His will, and He has ruled (decreed) that it shall come to pass. Some people speak of God's
decrees (plural) with the view that each event He has purposed is one of many decrees, but in truth ALL that God has purposed, He established by ONE all-encompassing decree.
 
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Rolf Ernst

New member
Clete presumes that he has authority to say what Calvinism teaches--he has no idea. He lies--bears false witness--against God and His word.
 

God_Is_Truth

New member
Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

Clete presumes that he has authority to say what Calvinism teaches--he has no idea. He lies--bears false witness--against God and His word.

Clete used to be a calvinist. he knows what he is talking about.
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Calvinism teaches that God is arbitrary, that He has created people specifically and only for the purpose of being punished.
Wrong. We believe that God punishes people specifically and only for the purpose of His glory. In fact, that's the only reason He has created anything, both the wicked and the good. No one believes that God punishes people specifically just to punish them, as if He likes doing it.
Punished not for what they have done but punished because they exist to be punished.
Your assumption that God only 'punishes' the 'bad' people is elementary logic. Surely Job was a righteous man in the eyes of God; David's firstborn son was killed by God, although his son had done nothing wrong; God hated Esau before he was born; God has killed several women and children that lived in nations and cities that opposed Israel; Jesus Himself was an innocent man, yet ordained by God to be 'slained' for His glory.
Indeed, they have only done what they have been programmed to do from before time began. Their existence in Hell is just the final step in the preprogrammed (predestined) existence.
So what if they are? It doesn't mean that they aren't responsible for thier sins. Jesus told Peter that he was going to deny Him three times that night, and sure enough, that's what Peter did. Afterwards, Peter wept bitterly. He knew he was guilty. He didn't say, "Well Lord, You did forknow that I was going to sin, thus it was going to happen and I had no free will, so I can't be responsible for denying you". Of course he didn't; Peter wept. He was grieved and sorry for his own wrong doing.

You scoff at the idea that man is held responsible if everything is decreed by God, but Paul reminds us that we are mere mortals. Who are we to talk back to God? Clete, you're just a man. And even though all of your actions were foreknown and ordained by God, you are still responsible for them. Being just a man, you look foolish declaring that it is unfair of God to do such a thing. Who do you think you are to judge God?

Romans 9:18-20
So you see, God shows mercy to some just because he wants to, and he chooses to make some people refuse to listen. Well then, you might say, "Why does God blame people for not listening? Haven't they simply done what he made them do?" No, don't say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to criticize God?
Thus, if God is as the Calvinist say, then He is unjust and most likely insane. And since we all know for certain that God is not unjust or insane we can say with equal certainty that Calvinism is wrong.
You declare God unjust for doing as He pleases? Can He not create people for destruction, if He so wills to? Can He not save whomever He wishes, in order to show the world through them that He is love and merciful and glorious? Can He not create the wicked for the day of punishment, to show the world His judgement and hatred against all that oppose Him, and in turn, to display His glory?

Again, who are you to render accusations against God for His sovereign choices? Who are you to judge God?
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Rolf Ernst,

You are a raving lunatic and a hypocrite.
You are NEVER again to speak to me about unfounded personal attacks.

You have completely misunderstood my post or intentionally misrepresented it, I can’t tell which. For example, I have never said and do not believe that “GOD MADE ME DO IT, SO GOD IS EVIL. GOD ORDAINED IT, SO I HAD NO CHANCE--ALL GOD'S FAULT.” Where in the world did you get that from anyway? That is precisely what I am debating AGAINST you idiot! In any case you’re proving to be too emotionally unstable to be capable of meaningful debate. However, I’ve decided to be gracious and give you an opportunity to continue this discussion. We can continue only under the following conditions.

1. You apologize and openly admit that your attacks where not only unfounded but that they were intended to do nothing but malicious harm to both me and my family.

2. You reread my post and respond to what I actually said in a very calm, thoughtful, and coherent way.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Turbo

Caped Crusader
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Rolf, you responded to Clete 5 times in less than a half an hour, and you act like he's avoiding you. Clete wasn't even online when you made all of those posts. (Small wonder that a Christian isn't on the internet at noon on a Sunday.) How about having a little patience?

Of course it would also be good if you didn't completely miss his points, too.
 
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