And death is the separation of body and spirit.
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26)
The brain is part of the body, a spirit without a body and brain is non-functional. A no-brainer.
Are there Saints In Heaven? Poll Question
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And death is the separation of body and spirit.
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26)
The brain is part of the body, a spirit without a body and brain is non-functional. A no-brainer.
Jesus said he is not.
God's Truth
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So then Abraham must be alive.
Alive, but not conscious. He sleeps in peace.
God's Truth
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How do you get that means his Spirit stopped existing, or would you rather I say that his Spirit stopped having consciousness?
Tell me how Jesus raised himself from the dead if he no longer had consciousness.
God's Truth
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popsthebuilder
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Job: 10. 9. Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again? 10. Hast thou not poured me out as milk, and curdled me like cheese? 11. Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews. 12. Thou hast granted me life and favour, and thy visitation hath preserved my spirit. 20. Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little, 21. Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death; 22. A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.
(really busy right now, or I would respond much more thoroughly.
peace
God's Truth
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How do you ever get that passage says we do not live in consciousness after the death of our physical body?
I don't think you understand what Job is saying. Job says he shall not return. Tell me, don't you know that we will all return at the resurrection?
Soul sleep believers try to use scripture from Ecclesiastes to support their false beliefs that our spirits do not live on after the death of our bodies, but the part of Ecclesiastes they use is about a message of if there were no God. Ecclesiastes also says the dead have no more reward (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Do you believe that the dead have no more reward? The Old Testament believers believed in a resurrection (Job 19:25-27; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; and others), so why would Solomon say the dead have no more reward if not to imagine a life without God.
Rosenritter
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popsthebuilder
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Why are you skipping to something I am not speaking about at this time? Job shows all die. If all die then we do not stay conscious. I'm not siding with anyone and am only trying to learn.
How do you get that the dead remain alive and conscious from scripture. Please do show the scripture that actually supports the supposition that all remain conscious even in death. Please show that all to not experience death other than Enoch and those who are taken by GOD in the end times.
Rosenritter
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The only way the blood of sprinkling applies to Jesus is through metaphor. Christ's blood wasn't literally sprinkled. The blood of goats and bulls were sprinkled.
Exo 24:6-8 KJV
(6) And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
(7) And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
(8) And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.
Heb 9:18-21 KJV
(18) Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
(19) For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
(20) Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
(21) Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
You asked for it to be proven that the passage was using metaphor, rather than that we literally are "gone to heaven" when we accept Christ. That's sufficiently proven. Yes, it's about Christ, but as Christ's blood was never literally sprinkled as a sacrifice, it's only applicable through metaphor.
That sounded so bizarre that I didn't take your accusation seriously. No, I am not Evil Eye: his writing style and thought process (and content) is completely different regardless. Do you want to ask if I am Lon or Ask Mr. Religion or anyone else, or are you satisfied with that?
Back to the point: we are not literally "ascended to heaven" when we accept Christ. It's weird that anyone should be asked to rebut that.
popsthebuilder
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Ecclesiastes: 9. 5. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes: 9. 10. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Rosenritter
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Abraham will be raised, thus God is the God of the Living.
If, on the other hand, you claim that Abraham is alive already without the resurrection, then why would Jesus attempt to use that to prove the necessity of the resurrection to the Sadducees?
Rosenritter
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GT, would you do us a favor and read the passage that you're attempting to use as reference? If Abraham was alive then Christ's rebuke did nothing to prove the resurrection. Yet he said that it was to prove the resurrection of the dead, that they rise. Far from rebuking Jamie, Jesus's answer actually rebukes your attempt to prove that the dead are alive while they are dead.
God's Truth
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What? I am talking about life after the death of the body. Why do you say you are not talking about that when of course that is what we are talking about?
You used what Job said to try to prove that but you have proven that you did not understand what Job said.
You keep asking that and I keep showing you.
I will show you again.
The scripture about a cloud of witness and the witnesses are those who have died. If they are witnesses then they are conscious.
The scripture about the spirits in prison/hell. If Jesus is preaching to the spirits then they are conscious.
See Hebrews 11 and 12.
See also 1 Peter 3:19.
Why aren't you trying harder to pay attention when I post to you? Where have I ever said no one experiences death?
If you want to reply to a poster here who wants to discuss, then be honest and truly read what they are saying instead of merely pretending that you have.
Rosenritter
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He placed his miracle on a timer? Even little old me can figure out a way to hit myself on the head with a baseball after I'm unconscious. Toss it up really high, knock myself out, and whack! it falls down and hits me. Surely something like raising the dead is as simple for God as me throwing a ball into the air.
Or as an alternative, perhaps Jesus, being God, refers to God in heaven as himself in this sense. You would be fond of that answer I should think.
God's Truth
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What a bizarre question. I have no idea what you are talking about.
What a strange thing to say. So according to you Jesus raised himself from the dead while he was unconscious.
You would have to keep in mind that there are three. You would also have to keep in mind that the Spirit does not die.
Rosenritter
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Technically, according to me Jesus could have raised himself from the dead while he was unconscious. I'm more inclined to think that when Jesus was dead and unconscious on earth, as God he was always conscious in heaven (sans the human experience at that point.) Whether God used a timer or required a manual "I give the word now" isn't said. Neither is contradicted by anything specific, so I see either as a valid option.
... by the way, I've noticed that the conversation has lightened a bit. Thanks.
popsthebuilder
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Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. ...
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
The dead do not praise the*Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.
The*Lord*preserves all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy.
But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. ...
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.
Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.
And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”
After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died,
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Precious in the sight of the*Lord*is the death of his saints.
But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.*
Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”
(as must have been the case for Enoch)
And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.”
And come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.
But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.
Oh that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.