Are there Saints In Heaven? Poll Question

[Rosenritter]

I think it's stupid to claim the Most High was ever lower than created beings.

It's simply blasphemy and disrespect.
You should be :banned:

Gospel of John. First chapter. Did John, the disciple whom Jesus loved, blaspheme God and Christ? It's not hard to understand, it says it clearly.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Jesus is God the Father come in the flesh as a Son of Man.

You believe a mere man became God.

Men cannot become God, but God can do anything that He wants and He chose to come as a Man.

No.

God sent His Son, not Himself.

It was necessary that God raise up a man to effect the atonement, that it be legal to overturn the sin of man and destroy the devil.

Jesus is our King, a man made like us.

Jesus was raised up a righteous man, full of grace and truth.---

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

I do believe that Jesus died in one sense, fully and literally, but in another sense it is impossible for him to die. Regardless of which shade of meaning is chosen, I do believe it is possible for God to die in the even most extreme sense and to raise himself up.

If Jesus says that he would raise himself, and Paul says God raised Jesus, then I believe they are both right. I know you don't like this answer, but the simplest explanation that avoids contradictions is that Jesus is God and God is Jesus.

You have come to the the wrong conclusion.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

LA

 

[jamie]

2. "Judgment begins at the house of God" is not a biblical term I am familiar with.

"For it is time for judgment to begin, starting with the house of God." (1 Peter 4:17 NET)

A house is a dwelling place. Where does God live?

Paul taught we should judge ourselves.

"But if we examined ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned with the world."
(1 Corinthians 11:31-32 NET)

 

[jamie]

Jamie, I think you're the one being a bit foolish.

OK. :carryon:

 

[Sleekbacksmile]

I am seeing the great response from Rosenritter - and I know that the Bible agrees with You.
Looking deeper into this Passage Of Scripture. - Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man

Truly - in Matthew 17:9 - Jesus DIRECTLY called their experience a vision.
This Word VISION in the Greek is the Word - Greek 3705 ὅραμα Horama / Hor'-am-ah. Meaning - A supernatural): - sight, vision.

This Greek worded used 15 times in the New Testament Manuscripts in Other such Passages Such as in Act 18:9 The Lord spoke to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

And
Act 10:17 Peter was puzzled in himself about the meaning of the vision of the four footed beasts - The wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And the voice saying Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

and also in Act 16:10 And after Paul had seen the vision, immediately He went toward Macedonia,

This Word VISION Greek 3705 ὅραμα Horama / Hor'-am-ah.

Meaning - A supernatural): - sight, vision. - is never used to describe a real physical event but Supernatural events that are not there in reality by are Shown In Visions

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, ,,,, - your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

The Problem is that Catholics and Many other as well - Always Leave the rest of the Story out of the equation - And they ignore the Original meaning of the Basic Greek and Hebrew Manuscripts.

Lets notice in The BOOK OF MARK as Mark gives another Detail to the Situation
Mar 9:2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and led them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

Mar 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
NOTICE that Jesus was transfigured before them. and then The Vision began.
This Word transfigured is the - Greek 3339 μεταμορφόω / metamorphoō / met-am-or-fo'-o
Meaning to transform “metamorphose”): - change, transfigure, transform.

Jesus made a change in His Presence and Literally Placed Himself into a VISION that the Apostles were seeing. Catholics Miss It - Every single time. There is no Mention of saints being in heaven before the Judgement Day. Catholics simply have no scriptures for their Faith

 

[Sherman]

[MENTION=20271]Sleekbacksmile[/MENTION]

From the forum rule page.

Other things to avoid... These items may or may not cause TOL banishment.....Please do not post in ALL CAPS or in all bolded text.

Please take the time to review the forum rules before you make too many more posts on this forum.

 

[Sleekbacksmile]

I noticed the Following verses
Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended?....... what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

[Rosenritter]

No.

God sent His Son, not Himself.

It was necessary that God raise up a man to effect the atonement, that it be legal to overturn the sin of man and destroy the devil.

Jesus is our King, a man made like us.

Jesus was raised up a righteous man, full of grace and truth.---

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

LA

Hello there LA. I'd like to offer some really short responses:

1) God does not have to worry about "legality" to overturn the sin of man and destroy the devil. God makes the law, therefore he can do it. Furthermore, only God has the power to forgive sin against God, and only God has the power to destroy the devil.

2) Jesus is our King, he was a made a man like us, that does not actually affect the point in question. God was made a man, like us, and his creation knew him not. Yet he was the one who created all things. Gospel of John, first chapter. Very well written. Inspired, even.

3) Any reference to Jesus as "a man" doesn't gain you ground here either. "Man" is the method that he came. Other passages in the bible refer to God and angels of heaven as "man" or "men" when they are in the form of a man. No one disputes that Jesus was on earth as a man, and in this context, it does not contradict his true identity as our God.

4) The term "Son" does not disqualify Jesus as God, any more than the term "Father" disqualifies the Father as God.

In other words, your proof texts aren't applicable to the question you're wanting to answer.

 

[Rosenritter]

You have come to the the wrong conclusion.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

LA

Lazy Afternoon, if the whole bible is inspired scripture, and as Jesus himself said, "The scripture cannot be broken" then all passages harmonize together. We don't choose some and discard others to pick a private interpretation divorced from the other parts.

John 1:1-3 KJV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

This isn't too hard. If we can keep hold of our attention for just a couple verses, and remember, John has spelled out that the Word was God,

John 1:14 KJV
(14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Jesus was the Word, and the Word was God. All of your other proof texts need to fit under that umbrella.

 

[Rosenritter]

"For it is time for judgment to begin, starting with the house of God." (1 Peter 4:17 NET)

A house is a dwelling place. Where does God live?

Paul taught we should judge ourselves.

"But if we examined ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned with the world."
(1 Corinthians 11:31-32 NET)

Your reasoning seems to be going off on a tangent. Look at the original context of what you're quoting please?

1 Peter 4:15-18 KJV
(15) But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
(16) Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
(17) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
(18) And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?


This is in a similar spirit as "take the plank out of your own eye" that Jesus spoke of earlier. Make ourselves holy, we are examples of Christ. This has nothing to do with our judgment being already past, and certainly not that we have already died.

Do you want to know when the saints receive judgment?Daniel 7:21-22 KJV
(21) I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
(22) Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

According to the prophet, judgment is given to the saints when Jesus returns, when they inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Rosenritter]

I noticed the Following verses
Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended?....... what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

That is an interesting riddle / prophecy:

Proverbs 30:4 KJV
(4) Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

I think the answer is that "his name" and "his son's name" is the same name. If you pick "Jehovah" for the first name and "Jesus" for the second name, you run into paradox as we are told that Jesus is the one who created all things, who "established all the ends of the earth" (John 1:3, Col 1:16).

 

[Sleekbacksmile]

.
A Paradox Perhaps. However There are many Words that Mean God. And Descriptive Words to Describe God.

However Gods Literal Name is Always Ya Ho Va Meaning - to exist, .


The Ya

Yahoshuah
Yahovah
Yawhea​

The Hebrew 1961 היה ho vâh - Simply Means To exist, To come (to pass), To Be. To pertain.

Yahoshuah Means I Save

Yahovah Means I eXist.

.............

Joshuah or Yahoshuah is the Same name. God SAVES

H3091 יהושׁע יהושׁוּע yehôshûa‛ yehôshûa‛
yeh-ho-shoo'-ah, yeh-ho-shoo'-ah
Jehovah-saved; Jehoshua (that is, Joshua), the Jewish leader: - Jehoshua, Jehoshuah, Joshua.


OR AND H3467 ישׁע yâsha‛ / yaw-shah'
free, that is, (by implication) to be safe; causatively to free or succor: - X at all, avenging, defend, deliver (-er), help, preserve, rescue, be safe, bring (having) salvation, save (-iour), get victory. Saves.

So You see Joshuah was the Name of Jesus. Jesus was not His Real name. This is a Perversion. Made up By Men who sinply have no scriptures for their Faith.

So they Make up stuff in their translations and know that People Like You will Lick up every single last link and drop. All the way to the gut.

 

[steko]

.
A Paradox Perhaps. However There are many Words that Mean God. And Descriptive Words to Describe God.

However Gods Literal Name is Always Ya Ho Va Meaning - to exist, .


The Ya

Yahoshuah
Yahovah
Yawhea​

The Hebrew 1961 היה ho vâh - Simply Means To exist, To come (to pass), To Be. To pertain.

Yahoshuah Means I Save

Yahovah Means I eXist.

.............

Joshuah or Yahoshuah is the Same name. God SAVES

H3091 יהושׁע יהושׁוּע yehôshûa‛ yehôshûa‛
yeh-ho-shoo'-ah, yeh-ho-shoo'-ah
Jehovah-saved; Jehoshua (that is, Joshua), the Jewish leader: - Jehoshua, Jehoshuah, Joshua.


OR AND H3467 ישׁע yâsha‛ / yaw-shah'
free, that is, (by implication) to be safe; causatively to free or succor: - X at all, avenging, defend, deliver (-er), help, preserve, rescue, be safe, bring (having) salvation, save (-iour), get victory. Saves.

So You see Joshuah was the Name of Jesus. Jesus was not His Real name. This is a Perversion. Made up By Men who sinply have no scriptures for their Faith.

So they Make up stuff in their translations and know that People Like You will Lick up every single last link and drop. All the way to the gut.

It's Ye-ho-vaw and Yeshua.

Jesus is not a perversion, just another language.

Ya-ho-vah and Yashua were made up in the 1930's.

 

[God's Truth]

No.

God sent His Son, not Himself.

It was necessary that God raise up a man to effect the atonement, that it be legal to overturn the sin of man and destroy the devil.

Jesus is our King, a man made like us.

Jesus was raised up a righteous man, full of grace and truth.---

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

LA

Jesus was made like us which proves he was not a mere man as you claim.

 

[God's Truth]

I think it's stupid to claim the Most High was ever lower than created beings.

It's simply blasphemy and disrespect.

You should be :banned:

It seems you cannot remember that there are three. It seems you cannot believe the Bible which says he made himself nothing, he humbled himself, he made himself poor, he did that all for us and his great love.

Philippians 2:7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Philippians 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death-- even death on a cross!

2 Corinthians 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.

Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people

Romans 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David,

Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,

 

[God's Truth]

I'm sorry, but I indeed did.

So Jesus went to hell and preached to those being punished in hell to you, and that, to you, means people in hell must have a complete conscious and memories of their past life. I do not agree that one must lead to the other.

So people are in hell have no memory of what they did? lol

And it doesnt refute all dying either.

We all die in the flesh but our spirit lives on. If our spirit did not live on then people wouldn't have their spirit in hell getting preached to. Why is Jesus saying anything to those spirits in hell if they can't understand?

I showed multiple scriptures showing we all die, to which you stated they were all a reference to the first death. Which I agreed with as the second death is being destroyed forever to which none will have any capacity to repent or change or return.

So, in short, the two singular verses I recall you positing, in no way prove your position anymore or less than my own in my opinion, but we can continue to attempt to discuss it, perhaps with additional scripture to reference.

You might not be able to discuss more on this because you think spirits in hell being preached to don't know anything. That is outrageous denial of the truth, IMHO. If they do not know anything then how can they be preached to?

1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.


Answer what I highlighted in the scripture and attempt to explain it with your false beliefs.

 

[steko]

It seems you cannot remember that there are three. It seems you cannot believe the Bible which says he made himself nothing, he humbled himself, he made himself poor, he did that all for us and his great love.

Philippians 2:7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Philippians 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death-- even death on a cross!

2 Corinthians 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.

Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people

Romans 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David,

Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,

So... you say that the Father made Himself nothing, huh?

 

[popsthebuilder]

So people are in hell have no memory of what they did? lol


We all die in the flesh but our spirit lives on. If our spirit did not live on then people wouldn't have their spirit in hell getting preached to. Why is Jesus saying anything to those spirits in hell if they can't understand?


You might not be able to discuss more on this because you think spirits in hell being preached to don't know anything. That is outrageous denial of the truth, IMHO. If they do not know anything then how can they be preached to?

1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.


Answer what I highlighted in the scripture and attempt to explain it with your false beliefs.

Evidently you have no interest in discussing the topics at hand, but care more to make outrageous claims about my beliefs.

Christ brings all to rememberence of what they did.

That doesn't mean they have to remember it before hand or be conscious of their own physical life.

How is it that you don't deny the omniscience of GOD unless it doesn't fit your pre-made explanation?

You agree that the Christ has limitless capacities to do the Will of GOD, but then say it's ludicrous to think we die when we die.

I'm done wasting my time.

If and when you decide to speak with genuine intentions let me know. I look forward to it and hope we can come to an agreement.

peace

 

[Rosenritter]

.
A Paradox Perhaps. However There are many Words that Mean God. And Descriptive Words to Describe God.

However Gods Literal Name is Always Ya Ho Va Meaning - to exist, .


The Ya

Yahoshuah
Yahovah
Yawhea​

The Hebrew 1961 היה ho vâh - Simply Means To exist, To come (to pass), To Be. To pertain.

Yahoshuah Means I Save

Yahovah Means I eXist.

.............

Joshuah or Yahoshuah is the Same name. God SAVES

H3091 יהושׁע יהושׁוּע yehôshûa‛ yehôshûa‛
yeh-ho-shoo'-ah, yeh-ho-shoo'-ah
Jehovah-saved; Jehoshua (that is, Joshua), the Jewish leader: - Jehoshua, Jehoshuah, Joshua.


OR AND H3467 ישׁע yâsha‛ / yaw-shah'
free, that is, (by implication) to be safe; causatively to free or succor: - X at all, avenging, defend, deliver (-er), help, preserve, rescue, be safe, bring (having) salvation, save (-iour), get victory. Saves.

So You see Joshuah was the Name of Jesus. Jesus was not His Real name. This is a Perversion. Made up By Men who sinply have no scriptures for their Faith.

So they Make up stuff in their translations and know that People Like You will Lick up every single last link and drop. All the way to the gut.

Sleekback, "Jesus" is the Greek form of the Hebrew "Joshua." It's the same name.