Are there Saints In Heaven? Poll Question

[God's Truth]

Technically, according to me Jesus could have raised himself from the dead while he was unconscious. I'm more inclined to think that when Jesus was dead and unconscious on earth, as God he was always conscious in heaven (sans the human experience at that point.) Whether God used a timer or required a manual "I give the word now" isn't said. Neither is contradicted by anything specific, so I see either as a valid option.

Jesus went to hell and preached there. Does not say he did it while in heaven.

... by the way, I've noticed that the conversation has lightened a bit. Thanks.

That is all your imagination.

 

[Rosenritter]

Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”
(as must have been the case for Enoch)

That's not aimed at a specific person, that's aimed at everyone. Jesus is speaking of the second death, the one that matters.

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. ...

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice


The dead do not praise the*Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.

The*Lord*preserves all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy.

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. ...


And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died,


When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Precious in the sight of the*Lord*is the death of his saints.

But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.*

Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”
(as must have been the case for Enoch)


And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.”


And come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.


But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.


Oh that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.


For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

All those scriptures are about the physical body and not about the spirit.

Please find time to reply to the scriptures I gave about the spirit.


I will show you again.

The scripture about a cloud of witness and the witnesses are those who have died. If they are witnesses then they are conscious.

The scripture about the spirits in prison/hell. If Jesus is preaching to the spirits then they are conscious.

See Hebrews 11 and 12.

See also 1 Peter 3:19.

 

[jamie]

You do understand the difference between literal and metaphor, right?

What does remission of sin mean?

We can literally die for our sins or we can accept Christ's literal death for our sins.

Either way they are paid. He that has died has been (past tense) freed from sin.

"For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more." (Romans 6:7-9)

Have you died with Christ or do you believe his death was metaphorical?

Did Christ die for his sin or ours?

How does one claim his death.

Actions speak louder than words.

 

[jamie]

Technically, according to me Jesus could have raised himself from the dead while he was unconscious.

Technically, Paul explained how Jesus was raised.

"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (Romans 8:11)

 

[God's Truth]

Technically, Paul explained how Jesus was raised.

"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (Romans 8:11)

That Spirit is Jesus' Spirit.

The Lord is the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.


How is it now after reading that anyone still is confused?

 

[Rosenritter]

What does remission of sin mean?

We can literally die for our sins or we can accept Christ's literal death for our sins.

Either way they are paid. He that has died has been (past tense) freed from sin.

"For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more." (Romans 6:7-9)

Have you died with Christ or do you believe his death was metaphorical?

The portion in red is metaphorical, as "we died" would not mean "literally dead." We know what literal death is. The portion in blue is literal, as "shall also live" is literal, pointing to a literal future living, Christ has been literally raised from literal death, and literally dies no more.

I'm not sure why literal vs. metaphor is even being discussed. It's fairly obvious, I thought.

Did Christ die for his sin or ours?

How does one claim his death.

Actions speak louder than words.

1. Not our sins only, but the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2
2. "Claim his death" is not a phrase I am familiar with so I am not sure of your meaning.

 

[Rosenritter]

Technically, Paul explained how Jesus was raised.

"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (Romans 8:11)

Ah Jamie, but before this, Jesus said that he would raise himself from the dead.

John 2:18-21 KJV
(18) Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
(19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
(20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
(21) But he spake of the temple of his body.

Jesus didn't say someone else would raise him up, but that he would raise it up. The passage in Romans that you provided talks of the Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. Acts 2:32 and 3:15 says that God raised Jesus from the dead. Rather than pick and choose which one we like or dislike, I am inclined to understand that these statements are all correct and intersect. Jesus raised himself, God raised Jesus, same thing.

 

[jamie]

The portion in red is metaphorical, as "we died" would not mean "literally dead." We know what literal death is. The portion in blue is literal, as "shall also live" is literal, pointing to a literal future living, Christ has been literally raised from literal death, and literally dies no more.

God told Adam that in sinning he would die, not die once but die twice.

We must die once before we can be judged. If you haven't died you are not being judged.

"And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment." (Hebrews 9:27)

"For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?"
(1 Peter 4:17)

Do you believe we must die before we can be judged? Yes or no?

Do you believe judgment begins at the house of God? Yes or no?

If we cannot be judged until after death and we are being judged, did we die?

Not physically, anyone can do that, but spiritually. Not everyone has done that.

Spiritual death is why Christ died. In Revelation 20 it is referred to as the second death and it is very literal.

Also the second death is permanent.

 

[jamie]

Jesus didn't say someone else would raise him up

True, Jesus didn't say it, Paul did.

If Jesus could get up and move around then he wasn't dead.

Do you believe he died?

After the Father restored Jesus' life then he could raise himself up.

Do dead people raise themselves up?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Ah Jamie, but before this, Jesus said that he would raise himself from the dead.

John 2:18-21 KJV
(18) Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
(19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
(20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
(21) But he spake of the temple of his body.

Jesus didn't say someone else would raise him up, but that he would raise it up. The passage in Romans that you provided talks of the Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. Acts 2:32 and 3:15 says that God raised Jesus from the dead. Rather than pick and choose which one we like or dislike, I am inclined to understand that these statements are all correct and intersect. Jesus raised himself, God raised Jesus, same thing.

God spoke often through Jesus,

not that Jesus was God.

Joh 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
Joh 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

 

[God's Truth]

All those scriptures are about the physical body and not about the spirit.

Please find time to reply to the scriptures I gave about the spirit.


I will show you again.

The scripture about a cloud of witness and the witnesses are those who have died. If they are witnesses then they are conscious.

The scripture about the spirits in prison/hell. If Jesus is preaching to the spirits then they are conscious.

See Hebrews 11 and 12.

See also 1 Peter 3:19.

Popsthebuilder, you still have not addressed these scriptures you kept asking me for.

 

[God's Truth]

God spoke often through Jesus,

not that Jesus was God.

Joh 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
Joh 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jesus is God the Father come in the flesh as a Son of Man.

You believe a mere man became God.

Men cannot become God, but God can do anything that He wants and He chose to come as a Man.

 

[jamie]

Jesus is God the Father come in the flesh as a Son of Man.

And was made a little lower than the angels. (Hebrews 2:9)

The Most High lower than the angels?

Does not compute. How foolish.

 

[God's Truth]

And was made a little lower than the angels. (Hebrews 2:9)

The Most High lower than the angels?

Does not compute. How foolish.

God the Father lived in unapproachable light in heaven and He also at the same time came as a Man in flesh. Don't you think men in the flesh are lower than angels?

 

[popsthebuilder]

Popsthebuilder, you still have not addressed these scriptures you kept asking me for.

I'm sorry, but I indeed did.

So Jesus went to hell and preached to those being punished in hell to you, and that, to you, means people in hell must have a complete conscious and memories of their past life. I do not agree that one must lead to the other.

And it doesnt refute all dying either.

I showed multiple scriptures showing we all die, to which you stated they were all a reference to the first death. Which I agreed with as the second death is being destroyed forever to which none will have any capacity to repent or change or return.

So, in short, the two singular verses I recall you positing, in no way prove your position anymore or less than my own in my opinion, but we can continue to attempt to discuss it, perhaps with additional scripture to reference.
]

 

[jamie]

God the Father lived in unapproachable light in heaven and He also at the same time came as a Man in flesh. Don't you think men in the flesh are lower than angels?

I think it's stupid to claim the Most High was ever lower than created beings.

It's simply blasphemy and disrespect.

You should be :banned:

 

[Rosenritter]

God told Adam that in sinning he would die, not die once but die twice.

We must die once before we can be judged. If you haven't died you are not being judged.

"And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment." (Hebrews 9:27)

"For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?"
(1 Peter 4:17)

Do you believe we must die before we can be judged? Yes or no?

Do you believe judgment begins at the house of God? Yes or no?

If we cannot be judged until after death and we are being judged, did we die?

Not physically, anyone can do that, but spiritually. Not everyone has done that.

Spiritual death is why Christ died. In Revelation 20 it is referred to as the second death and it is very literal.

Also the second death is permanent.

1. Death precedes judgment. We have not yet died and we have not yet been judged. This should be evident from many things, including "I think therefore I am not dead", the parables of Christ of his return and the judgment to be given unto the saints, and even where Jesus says things like the that puts his hand to the plough and looks back is not fit to enter the kingdom of God."

2. "Judgment begins at the house of God" is not a biblical term I am familiar with. I fear answering a question that has a phrase with hidden meaning. I do believe that the saints of God receive judgment first, when Christ returns, having come into his kingdom, when he shall rewards every man according to his works.

If we cannot be judged until after death and we are being judged, did we die?

No, we ARE NOT DEAD. We are talking, you and I, therefore we are not dead. We also have not yet been judged - that is for at the end of the race, at the end of the world, "when the roll is called up yonder" and the Lord asks us what we have done with our talents. I'd quote a stack of scripture here but why don't you tell me if you need specific evidence so we can save time and space?

 

[Rosenritter]

True, Jesus didn't say it, Paul did.

If Jesus could get up and move around then he wasn't dead.

Do you believe he died?

After the Father restored Jesus' life then he could raise himself up.

Do dead people raise themselves up?

I do believe that Jesus died in one sense, fully and literally, but in another sense it is impossible for him to die. Regardless of which shade of meaning is chosen, I do believe it is possible for God to die in the even most extreme sense and to raise himself up.

If Jesus says that he would raise himself, and Paul says God raised Jesus, then I believe they are both right. I know you don't like this answer, but the simplest explanation that avoids contradictions is that Jesus is God and God is Jesus.

 

[Rosenritter]

And was made a little lower than the angels. (Hebrews 2:9)

The Most High lower than the angels?

Does not compute. How foolish.

Jamie, I think you're the one being a bit foolish. Man is a little lower than the angels in power and stature. If God steps foot into our world (that he created, as the gospel of John says) as a man, then he was made a little lower than the angels. For a time.