Are there Saints In Heaven? Poll Question

[popsthebuilder]

I didn't have to wait long for you to repeat what you said you didn't say.

Here it is again your statement about how we do not go to heaven or hell after the death of our bodies:

I'm waiting.

Don't you see this as an opportunity to show me what it is you are referencing?

 

[Rosenritter]

Wrong answer, we must all die once and then be judged.

You are knowingly going against scripture in favor of your own opinion.

I have no opinion on Enoch. Only what is plainly stated.

Hebrews 9:27 KJV
(27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Romans 14:10 KJV
(10) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:10 KJV
(10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

@popsthebuilder, how is jamie "knowingly going against scripture in favor of her own opinion" with that statement? What she said is plainly spelled out in that many words by scripture. The noted exception to that rule being in 1 Corinthians 15:51, that if you should happen to still be standing at Christ's return, those of us in Christ will be changed without the "dead" bit coming first.

 

[God's Truth]

I'm waiting.

Don't you see this as an opportunity to show me what it is you are referencing?

You don't even acknowledge that you are saying things and then claiming you didn't say them, even after I have given proof.

As for you waiting for me to prove my beliefs, I have been doing that and you have not been replying to it.

 

[Rosenritter]

I have been saying ...

You say quite a few things, over. And over. And over. Rapid fire.

... and proving with scripture that Enoch is alive in heaven. He is a spirit in heaven. His spirit is in heaven living in consciousness.

... although you've neglected to prove any of those things, with or without scripture. I think you have a failure to understand what the word "prove" means. Claiming, repeating, spamming, shouting, insulting, none of these things constitute proof.

1. We have Paul telling us that Enoch died. We do not have a scripture telling us that Enoch currently lives.
2. We have a scripture telling us that no man has ascended to heaven. We do not have a passage telling us that Enoch is a spirit in heaven.
3. See point two, though I do not understand why you felt the need to add "living in consciousness" to "living." Did you mean to imply that some people live in heaven as spirits in an unconscious state?

Never mind, don't answer that.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Hebrews 9:27 KJV
(27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Romans 14:10 KJV
(10) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:10 KJV
(10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

@popsthebuilder, how is jamie "knowingly going against scripture in favor of her own opinion" with that statement? What she said is plainly spelled out in that many words by scripture. The noted exception to that rule being in 1 Corinthians 15:51, that if you should happen to still be standing at Christ's return, those of us in Christ will be changed without the "dead" bit coming first.

Scripture plainly and repeatedly says Enoch did not die.

What other explanation is needed?

 

[God's Truth]

The proof that our spirits live on in consciousness is that Jesus preached to spirits after he died on the cross.

The proof that our spirits live on in consciousness after we die is because of the great cloud of witnesses. Witnesses up above like the clouds are living. What witnesses are dead?

The proof that our spirits live on is that when someone comes to Jesus to be saved, they come to HEAVEN where spirits of righteous men are made perfect.

 

[God's Truth]

You say quite a few things, over. And over. And over. Rapid fire.



... although you've neglected to prove any of those things, with or without scripture. I think you have a failure to understand what the word "prove" means. Claiming, repeating, spamming, shouting, insulting, none of these things constitute proof.

1. We have Paul telling us that Enoch died. We do not have a scripture telling us that Enoch currently lives.
2. We have a scripture telling us that no man has ascended to heaven. We do not have a passage telling us that Enoch is a spirit in heaven.
3. See point two, though I do not understand why you felt the need to add "living in consciousness" to "living." Did you mean to imply that some people live in heaven as spirits in an unconscious state?

Never mind, don't answer that.

You ignore the scripture that says Enoch didn't die.

You ignore many scriptures.

 

[popsthebuilder]

You don't even acknowledge that you are saying things and then claiming you didn't say them, even after I have given proof.

As for you waiting for me to prove my beliefs, I have been doing that and you have not been replying to it.

I ask you here and now gt; as a friend, a believer, a sincere seeker, and a sibling in faith.

This isn't a game.

I have answered you plainly in regards to what I believe about heaven and the resurrection, nor please do provide scriptural reference for instantaneous transmission into heaven upon physical death and consciousness of previous physical life, along with memories, physical bodies.

Stop beating around the bush.

You caused me of beliefs that I apparently hadn't previously made clear, and asked me to clarify.

I have.

Now please do clarify your own belief for me.

Or do not. The decision is yours.

peace

 

[Rosenritter]

Scripture plainly AMD repeatedly says Enoch did not die.

What other explanation is needed?

Scripture does not say Enoch did not die, it says that he was translated so that he would not see death. And just a couple verses later, the same author sums up his list that includes Enoch telling us that these all died.
"What other explanation is needed?"

You need to explain why Paul made up a list of five people of whom "These all died, not having received the promises" and specifically chose Enoch in his list.

"These all {Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, also Sara} died in faith, not having received the promises..."

You have yet to offer any explanation for why you can ignore the plain word "all" and "died." The prior verse that you attempt to use as proof only has meaning and application as it is used to build support for the final verse. So I have another explanation to ask of you: why do you fight on this point? You're arguing against a positive statement where Enoch is specifically chosen as an example of dying in faith. Does this question affect another topic that I'm not aware of?

 

[popsthebuilder]

Scripture does not say Enoch did not die, it says that he was translated so that he would not see death. And just a couple verses later, the same author sums up his list that includes Enoch telling us that these all died.
"What other explanation is needed?"

You need to explain why Paul made up a list of five people of whom "These all died, not having received the promises" and specifically chose Enoch in his list.

"These all {Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, also Sara} died in faith, not having received the promises..."

You have yet to offer any explanation for why you can ignore the plain word "all" and "died." The prior verse that you attempt to use as proof only has meaning and application as it is used to build support for the final verse. So I have another explanation to ask of you: why do you fight on this point? You're arguing against a positive statement where Enoch is specifically chosen as an example of dying in faith. Does this question affect another topic that I'm not aware of?

Read it again...the word but divides Enoch from the rest.

I already mentioned it but you must have missed it.

Hebrews: 11. 5. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.



The whole chapter is about faith and the reconciliation of the whole world read the last verse.

 

[patrick jane]

Scripture does not say Enoch did not die, it says that he was translated so that he would not see death. And just a couple verses later, the same author sums up his list that includes Enoch telling us that these all died.
"What other explanation is needed?"

You need to explain why Paul made up a list of five people of whom "These all died, not having received the promises" and specifically chose Enoch in his list.

"These all {Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, also Sara} died in faith, not having received the promises..."

You have yet to offer any explanation for why you can ignore the plain word "all" and "died." The prior verse that you attempt to use as proof only has meaning and application as it is used to build support for the final verse. So I have another explanation to ask of you: why do you fight on this point? You're arguing against a positive statement where Enoch is specifically chosen as an example of dying in faith. Does this question affect another topic that I'm not aware of?

It only means they all stopped existing on earth not having received the promises.

 

[popsthebuilder]

The proof that our spirits live on in consciousness is that Jesus preached to spirits after he died on the cross.

The proof that our spirits live on in consciousness after we die is because of the great cloud of witnesses. Witnesses up above like the clouds are living. What witnesses are dead?

The proof that our spirits live on is that when someone comes to Jesus to be saved, they come to HEAVEN where spirits of righteous men are made perfect.

None of that shows that we retain conscious after death or that we are instanly in heaven upon death.

Such a belief is vanity. And based on the want of itching ears.

Please do reference the actual scripture you alluded to that we might expound upon its actual meaning and verify your believe and correct mine.

 

[God's Truth]

I ask you here and now gt; as a friend, a believer, a sincere seeker, and a sibling in faith.

This isn't a game.

I have answered you plainly in regards to what I believe about heaven and the resurrection, nor please do provide scriptural reference for instantaneous transmission into heaven upon physical death and consciousness of previous physical life, along with memories, physical bodies.

Stop beating around the bush.

You caused me of beliefs that I apparently hadn't previously made clear, and asked me to clarify.

I have.

Now please do clarify your own belief for me.

Or do not. The decision is yours.

peace

I say exactly what you say about your beliefs.

You are just one confused person.

 

[Rosenritter]

The proof that our spirits live on in consciousness is that Jesus preached to spirits after he died on the cross.

You have a short memory. First, he preached by his resurrection, not his death; and second, the spirits preached to are specifically named from those who were disobedient before the flood, and these were not human spirits. Your proof fails on point one.

The proof that our spirits live on in consciousness after we die is because of the great cloud of witnesses. Witnesses up above like the clouds are living. What witnesses are dead?

Even inanimate objects are witnesses, including heaps and torn clothing. The testimony given of the martyrs are their own witness. Water and blood bear witness, and these certainly aren't living or conscious!

Genesis 31:48 KJV
(48) And Laban said, This heap is a witness between me and thee this day. Therefore was the name of it called Galeed;

Exodus 22:12-13 KJV
(12) And if it be stolen from him, he shall make restitution unto the owner thereof.
(13) If it be torn in pieces, then let him bring it for witness, and he shall not make good that which was torn.

1 John 5:8 KJV
(8) And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Do I need to bring more witness to bear on you on this point, or can we move on? Your second proof is ruled insufficient.

The proof that our spirits live on is that when someone comes to Jesus to be saved, they come to HEAVEN where spirits of righteous men are made perfect.

If that's what you mean by "coming to heaven" then you've reduced this entire conversation to a metaphor. Regardless, as we touched on already, "the spirits of just men made perfect" may mean "perfected in love" or it may mean "raised to life an immortality" but no where does it say that anyone has currently ascended to heaven, save ONE, because He is the LORD of Glory.

Your third proof is deemed more than insufficient, but downright silly.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I say exactly what you say about your beliefs.

You are just one confused person.

Okay.


peace

 

[God's Truth]

None of that shows that we retain conscious after death or that we are instanly in heaven upon death.

Such a belief is vanity. And based on the want of itching ears.

Please do reference the actual scripture you alluded to that we might expound upon its actual meaning and verify your believe and correct mine.

You said you do not believe like that, looks like you are finally coming to terms that you do believe as I said you did.

As for those scriptures, they do prove that we retain consciousness after death.

Since you say those scriptures I gave don't say that we do, tell me then how the unconscious are witnesses?

Tell me also how the spirits of those who have died can live according to how God wants them to.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I say exactly what you say about your beliefs.

You are just one confused person.

You really aren't going to provide scripture to verify your belief that we instantly are in heaven after physical death with consciousness and memory of past life?

Really?

I am actually surprised.

I'm still waiting.

You really need to provide it.

I can provide a multitude of scripture for my vague beliefs, yet you know scripture much better than me, and deleted me to be confused.

I've asked you to direct me in formation with scripture yet you refuse through attempted redirection?

Do you take me for a fool?

I've come to you in sincerely and an eagerness to be corrected and to learn and you pull the ole switcheroo?

I will not be discouraged by this, but if you don't provide scriptural support for tu our stated beliefs then I will have to quietly assume your own lack of understanding and confusion.

I eagerly await scriptural reference for your stated belief, not mine.

peace

 

[God's Truth]

Hebrews 11:40 39These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 40God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect. Hebrews 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

How are they who waited did not receive can be witnesses if they are dead?


1 Peter 4:5But they will have to give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6That is why the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged as men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.


The gospel was preached to those who are dead, so that they might be judged as men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body, but made alive in the spirit, 19in which He also went and preached to the spirits in prison

 

[God's Truth]

You really aren't going to provide scripture to verify your belief that we instantly are in heaven after physical death with consciousness and memory of past life?

Really?

I am actually surprised.

I'm still waiting.

You really need to provide it.

I can provide a multitude of scripture for my vague beliefs, yet you know scripture much better than me, and deleted me to be confused.

I've asked you to direct me in formation with scripture yet you refuse through attempted redirection?

Do you take me for a fool?

I've come to you in sincerely and an eagerness to be corrected and to learn and you pull the ole switcheroo?

I will not be discouraged by this, but if you don't provide scriptural support for tu our stated beliefs then I will have to quietly assume your own lack of understanding and confusion.

I eagerly await scriptural reference for your stated belief, not mine.

peace

I have been posting many scriptures proving my beliefs. Are you blind?

 

[God's Truth]

You have a short memory. First, he preached by his resurrection, not his death; and second, the spirits preached to are specifically named from those who were disobedient before the flood, and these were not human spirits. Your proof fails on point one.

Hahahaha They were not human spirits? What kind of spirits but spirits of humans need the gospel preached to them? Who is salvation for?