ARCHIVE: The reality of "Hell"

[AVmetro]

quote:
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Originally posted by cirisme
Agape,

>>>What purpose does it serve an all loving and all good God, to have those who refused His love and goodness and have denied themselves eternal life in His presence, to suffer for all eternity.? What is there to be gained by anyone?

cirisme>>To have the very thing he wants most, love. I would like to see some scripture that stands up to scrutiny that supports your position.
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So you are saying that God's purpose in allowing eternal torture is so He could have love?!! And this makes sense to you? Is this how God wants to be love? Actually, the entire Word supports my statement. God IS LOVE...God IS LIGHT, AND IN HIM IS NO DARKNESS AT ALL. The reason God would not allow eternal torture is because He loves even His enemies. God can only give that which He is: Love and Light.

As I have already posted and as the Scriptures state:

God clearly says in Romans 6:23 that "that wages of sin is DEATH.

The Bible plainly teaches that flesh and blood is subject to combustion and death (Hebrews 9:27; Genesis 3:19; Ecclesiastes 3:20). Malachi 4:3 says that in the end the ASHES of the wicked will be under the feet of the righteous. The wicked will be destroyed and will die that death, the second death, from which there will never be a resurrection (Revelation 20:6, 14).

IMHO--anyone who believes God would allow those who rejected Him and His Son Jesus Christ, to endure such horrendous suffering for all eternity, neither knows nor understands the love and heart of God.

Agape, your position is understandable, but only because you don't understand what you are saying. I'll explain tonight.

Agape, I still have a burden for you. <sorry about the rude comments >.
If your willing to listen and dig ourselves out of the ad homien rut, I'd like to discuss the above matter with you...

God bless you Agape,
Jeremiah L.G.

 

[Sealeaf]

Everlasting life, Hell and a Loving God

Everlasting life, Hell and a Loving God

I am known on this and several other boards as a joker and a trickster. I have put off my cap and bells for this post. In what I have to say below I am deadly serious.

Modern Physics has answered the question of Life Everlasting. We are living it now. One of the corollaries of the theory of relativity is the understanding that our perception of time is an illusion. Time is a dimension like length and width. It is not a series of events that are present and then gone. If I drive from Boston to New York, I perceive the country between as a series of events, mile after mile of highway, occasional rest stops, finally NY. But Boston is not gone because I no longer perceive it. That is how dimensions work. Yesterday is as real as today. I am always going to alive on 6/17/02. Forever. There is always going to be a World Trade Center standing on 9/10/2001. Forever.

So we can't escape everlasting existence. Oblivion is not an option. But as to whether we experience it as everlasting life or everlasting death, that is very much still a question.

Logic and science have taken us as far as they can at the present state of our knowledge. Beyond this I can only speculate based on some of the hints we have been given in nature and in the scriptures.

I think we will continue to be conscious beings, experiencing ourselves, even after the moment of "now" has passed. Why not, Boston is still a vibrant living city when I am not in it. It also seems likely that we will have a continuous awareness of self that includes our entire temporal dimension. We may already have this. The sensory "noise" of being in the current moment just drowns out the fainter awareness of all our past moments.

We may also already have trans-temporal senses but they don't give us much information for the same reason an astronomical telescope does not yield much information on a crowded subway. We don't need to occupy the same space as another thing to be aware of it. So why should we need to be in the same time as another person in order to aware of him? Once the noisy temporal "now" front has passed beyond our life times we may have the quiet and leisure to hear and see the real, four-dimensional world.

Will it be a bright world full of light and friends or a dark place of horror filled with fiends? All life requires energy. In the Now we get energy from the sun, directly as heat and indirectly as food from plants that store the sun's energy chemically. Trans-temporally the ultimate source of energy is God. If one has access to the energy of God then the post life existence is a warm, bright and satisfied one. With energy you can do things, be active, experience, communicate and explore. If one has no access to the God's energy (Grace?) then it is a dark, cold, hungry existence hoarding what little spiritual energy you have left from life. You can perceive little beyond yourself. You can't move or act. You might as well be buried "alive" in a dark hole in the ground. Death Everlasting.

It may be no coincidence that ghosts are experienced as psychic cold spots. In the pagan orient ghosts are pictured as starving. The pagan Norse peoples pictured Hell as a cold place. The Greek tradition sees death as a dark experience. Dark. Cold. Hungry.

Interesting that the Hebrew vision is of the rubbish heap. Discarded, found to be worthless, of no value, useless to God.

It is the nature of trash heaps that they attract scavengers. I think we should be very afraid of the roaches, rats and feral dogs that are the wildlife of the spiritual dump. We would have that little bit of spiritual energy left over from life. It might smell tasty to spiritual entities who roam the four-dimensional wasteland cut off from the power of the Godhead.
C.S. Lewis hinted at the food shortage in hell in "The Screwtape Letters".

Horrible as this vision is, what sort of a "Loving God" would inflict it on His children? The answer must be, one who has no choice. For some reason He can't just make us never have been born. Must be the universe is not set up that way. Oblivion would be much kinder. If He could do that He could have unmade Satan, saving a world of grief. It must be very unpleasant for God. If any of you have had the experience of raising a child who becomes addicted to hard drugs, you may have an inkling of what it is like. How do you, in love, deal with a child who wrecks your home, steals your TV and stereo to sell for drug money, steals from his brothers and sisters and destroys the environment they need and have a right to? Eventually, you cut him off. You have to, in simple justice to his siblings who are not addicted.

Thank you, for your indulgence of this unusually long post. It was a serious issue that deserved a serious answer.

 

[agape]

"Gehenna" in Greek, which is "ghi-hinnom" in Hebrew, is also translated "hell" but is not the grave (hades or sheol).

Gehenna is the place of "destruction," hell fire. The word comes from the valley of Hinnom of the dead.

The most accurate translation of "hades" and "sheol" would be "gravedom." Gravedom is the state in which all dead dwell; it not a "qeber, a spot where the body is buried on land or sea. The Biblical description of gravedom (the kingdom of all those in the grave--the dead), "sheol" or "hades," is a place where there is no remembrance.

 

[cirisme]

Look, agape, your posts don't deserve a response. You're only repeating what o2 has already said. If you want my response, look at pages 1-5.

Thanks,
-AJ

 

[agape]

Those who will be cast into the lake of fire will perish, be destroyed. They brought this destruction upon themselves by rejecting the righteousness of God. God knows there is absolutely no hope for them and He will not make them obedient to Him for He never overrides one's freedom of will.

They will all perish. The point I'm making is that there is absolutely no purpose for eternal suffering. Our God just doesn't work that way. Not if you know Him.

However, putting God is love and light...aside, the Scriptures themselves, when rightly divided and all scripture pertaining to the same topic are viewed and examined, make it very plain that all those who refused salvation shall not be tortured for all eternity but will absolutely, beyond any shadow of doubt, die the second death which will be for all eternity. We either have eternal life or eternal death and of which either is each individual's choice by the freedom of his/her will.

One cannot die the second death which the Word makes clear will occur, and still be alive.

The second death is the lake of fire, Gehenna, a place of total destruction.

Revelation 20:14,15:
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Death and Hades are totally and permanently done away and destroyed in the lake of fire. And those who were not found written in the book of life (eternal) were also cast into the lake of fire, everlasting desruction, destroyed...

 

[cirisme]

God is life. When seperated from God, we no longer have the life that He has, but we, in a sense, "die." Like the many times the NT says "we who were dead in our sins." This does not mean we were gone into oblivion, it just means that we are away from true life... God! The same goes for Revelation 20.

 

[Dude-eronomy]

Originally posted by cirisme


Adam is our ancestor, Jesus is not.

Oh come on, cirisme! I'm not making it up -- Paul says it: (1 Corinthians 15:22) "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."

You, my friend, are quibbling.

 

[agape]

Originally posted by cirisme
God is life. When seperated from God, we no longer have the life that He has, but we, in a sense, "die." Like the many times the NT says "we who were dead in our sins." This does not mean we were gone into oblivion, it just means that we are away from true life... God! The same goes for Revelation 20.

You have just demonstrated a prime example of "privately interpreting" the Word of Truth.

Thanks cirisme..

 

[AVmetro]

Agape...

Agape...

Hey Agape,

What purpose does it serve an all loving and all good God, to have those who refused His love and goodness and have denied themselves eternal life in His presence, to suffer for all eternity.? What is there to be gained by anyone?

Agape, you are confusing God’s love with God’s nature of justice. You seem to be basing a lot on the fact that you don’t understand why a “hell” would be necessary. One misconception you must put aside is the assumption that God does ‘sends people to hell’. This statement is far too generalized. It gives the mental image of God stoking a big fire with handfuls of people at random . It is specifically the sinner who turns away the free salvation offered. When a man turns aside God’s salvation he is in effect turning aside God himself saying ‘I don’t want that..’. Sin must be punished or God is not just. You can’t have a just God who does not punish. Only Christ can satisfy that justice. If you refuse atonement, you of your own accord accept the punishment. If the sin is never atoned for then it is in turn never justified, and therefore must be eternally punished. The principle is totally understandable and just.

So you are saying that God's purpose in allowing eternal torture is so He could have love?!! And this makes sense to you? Is this how God wants to be love? Actually, the entire Word supports my statement. God IS LOVE...God IS LIGHT, AND IN HIM IS NO DARKNESS AT ALL. The reason God would not allow eternal torture is because He loves even His enemies. God can only give that which He is: Love and Light.

There is indeed NO darkness in God at all. Agape, you have to realize the principles you are implying. Let’s say there is no hell. What is the next step down. Next thing you know people will accuse God of ‘not being love’ because of something else that irks them. Let’s take the following passage:

“If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue here husband from his assailant, and reaches out and seizes him by his *********** , you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.” Deut25:11-12

Now, am I to say “A God of love would command no such thing, I won’t believe it”.. Is that validated? No. Agape, God is a God of love. However justice must at the same time be satisfied. Requiring payment for sin is in no wise a deterrent to a loving nature.

As I have already posted and as the Scriptures state:

God clearly says in Romans 6:23 that "that wages of sin is DEATH.

The point of the scripture is to demonstrate that sin naturally brings death.
Yes, agape, but does the death atone for the sin itself? Why then are we still paying for the sin of Adam? Why did Adam’s sin not end at his death? We die because of the sin, that is the wages paid, but why do we have scriptures such as the following: Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.” Sin is a disease. A disease spreads and kills, but is only stopped when the vaccine is applied. Only Christ can atone for the sin of the world. Those outside of Christ must continue to pay the punishment. You must be safe “in” Christ to survive the day when God carries out his final wrath on evil.

The Bible plainly teaches that flesh and blood is subject to combustion and death (Hebrews 9:27; Genesis 3:19; Ecclesiastes 3:20). Malachi 4:3 says that in the end the ASHES of the wicked will be under the feet of the righteous. The wicked will be destroyed and will die that death, the second death, from which there will never be a resurrection (Revelation 20:6, 14).

I think your taking those verses in a different way in which they were intended. The ashes are symbolic of the victory for example etc…
Let’s take Heb9:27 “Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment..”
Why is it that judgment comes after death if death is the ultimate punishment for sin? Death is the product of Adam’s sin. If not for Adam we would have never died.

Let’s see if it is flesh specifically that is to “judged’. Let us remember that flesh is nothing without the soul behind it.
Take for example Satan. This is a good point to concentrate on as it nullifies quite a few oppositions to “hell”.
Does God love Satan? No. He is likened unto Saul; “2 Samuel 7:15
But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you.
Is Satan of flesh and blood as man? No.

Look at the following passage:

2Pet2:4 “For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell (Tartarus), putting them in gloomy dungeons to be held for judgement…..”

Spiritual beings are held accountable as well…..

Let’s take into consideration that Satan hates God. The last thing Satan wants is eternal life in the presence of God. He wants total unconscious ‘death’. Therefore, for all that Satan has done, from Eden on, is this his “punishment”. If I murder someone and am given a bowl of ice-cream as punishment, does that count? I think not!
Satan cannot receive the atonement of Christ. He must therefore be punished. Being that death does not specifically atone for sin, he must be punished eternally. That is justice. Pure and simple.

Refer back to that one post I made with all the scripture and you will in fact note that the ‘lake of fire’ was provided specifically for the devil. All others have merely, of their own accord, traveled to that destination.

I have more coming eventually when I get some time .

God bless you Agape,
Jeremiah L.G.

BTW I’m NOT saying that “Hell” is a Dante-esque ‘nine levels of hell’ sort of place either. I am emphasizing the fact that the afterlife apart from God will be conscious where there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth”….
Punishment. Satan will get what he rightfully deserves for leading the world away from God….

 

[Jaltus]

Agape,

Gehenna is actually the refuse pit outside of Jerusalem.

If you think that Hades refers to a place of total forgetfulness, you may want to read Luke 16:19-31.

 

[sojouner]

cirisme
<<Interesting. I believe there's a city in the northern US named "Hell." A friend told me every year the weather channel really announces it when it snows there, they say, "Hell has frozen over!" >>
Yep I heard that too , apparently When the Eagles did there world tour in 1995 that was the reason they "toured ".
For when they split before this tour they had said that hey wouldn't tour together again "till hell freezes over"
I don't know how true that comment is but it makes a good story !!

Evangelion Im going to update my church bulletins folder in my site soon Haven't for quite some time (like the middle of last year)
so got to do something about it

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Jaltus
Agape,

Gehenna is actually the refuse pit outside of Jerusalem.

If you think that Hades refers to a place of total forgetfulness, you may want to read Luke 16:19-31.

I don't "think"it...God does.

Psalms 6:5:
For in death [there is] no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalms 146:4:
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10:
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun

(10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

There is no consciousness in death. If no consciousness, no remembrance. So I guess your problem is with God...not me.

Regarding Luke 16:19-31

Luke 16 contains the record of Lazarus in Abraham's bosom. This passage has been used to teach that immediately after death one is alive and is forthwith judged.

First of all we need to note that this passage is a "parable," which is a Figure of Speech.

A "parable"is a comparison by sustained resemblance. A parable is an extended simile; the resemblance is usually in one specific characteristic. The likeness or resemblance must always be sought from the essence of the entire context. The confusion and misunderstanding of the parable in Luke 16 lies in the Pharisaic beliefs.

Luke 16:14 indicates that this parable is addressed to the Pharisees. So Jesus wisely judged the Pharisees out of their own mouths, from their own vantage point, for the Pharisees believed in rewards and punishments immediately upon death as so many believe today. This parable does NOT say that Jesus believed in immediate rewards and punishment after death; that is what the "pharisees" believed. Jesus uses this parable to condemn the Pharisees and to catch them in their own erroneous beliefs.

This passage in Luke 16 must be interpreted and understood in accordance with the great quantity of Scriptures. One cannot reject the one hundred clear passages and accept one seemingly contradictory one. Jesus could not have denied Ecclesiastes 9:4-6.

Jesus Christ could not have contradicted the of Word of God in John 11:11-14

(11) These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

(12) Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

(13) Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

(14) Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Jesus could not have been more explicit when he said, "...Lazarus is dead."

Luke 14:14 also plainly teaches about death and resurrection.

"And thou shalt be blessed; for they [the dead, the lame, the blind,] cannot recompense thee; for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just."

How could Jesus in one place talk about people being recompensed at the resurrection of the jest and yet teach there there is an "immediate" reward or punishment after death?

Luke 16 must be understood as a parable. The misunderstanding of Luke 16 has been read into it by people who try to "literalize" the parable. Jesus was simply addressing his illustration to an indicated group of people and was able to trap them in their own snare of belief--"If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were not "literally" alive in hades. They, as all others, are literally dead until the resurrection. These three people were simply figuratively used to make a striking impact on the criticizing Pharisees.

 

[agape]

Originally posted by cirisme
Look, agape, your posts don't deserve a response.

Then don't.

 

[agape]

Re: Agape...

Re: Agape...

Originally posted by AVmetro Agape, you are confusing God’s love with God’s nature of justice.

No. You are confusing God's nature, which IS LOVE with His justiceness by leaving out His love. His nature of love and His justiceness go hand-in-hand. However, as I stated, the Scriptures, when rightly divided, viewed and examined as a whole, hell is not a continuous place of torture.

Why is it that judgment comes after death if death is the ultimate punishment for sin? Death is the product of Adam’s sin. If not for Adam we would have never died.

The ultimate result of sin is the second death, which is permanent death...NO RESURRECTION.

God loved Lucifer before he tried to usurp His throne and was cast down as Satan/the Devil..."The Evil or Wicked One." God does not love evil. However, God does not hate Satan because God does not, figuratively speaking, have a hateful bone in His body." God cannot hate. Hate comes from the Devil. Whenever we see words such as; "God abhors." it is always a figure of speech called "anthropopatheia" or "condescensio," which means God who is Spirit and does not have emotions such as we do, condescends to our human level of understanding. He is communicating the greatness of the evil being done.

God did not literally "take His love from Saul." It is important to keep in mind that the OT is filled with "figures of speech" which are not to be taken in the literal sense. There are many passages in the OT which contain the figure "idiom of permission." Saul is the one who removed himself from God's love by turning away from Him and committed idolatry which is in Satan's realm. Saul disobeyed God and went to another source for guidance; namely, the "the prophetess of Endora."

The word "tartarus" is used once and once only.

II Peter 2:4 “For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell [tartarosas], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment." Tartarus denotes the bounds or limits of those evil spirits who will face judgment in the future which is to be "destroyed" in the lake of fire.

Let’s take into consideration that Satan hates God. The last thing Satan wants is eternal life in the presence of God.

Exactly, that is why he will be destroyed in the lake of fire, along with those who also "will" not to be presence of God. Eternal death is certainly not a "bowl of ice cream."

God does not derive satisfaction from seeing anyone suffer. It's not in His all loving and all good nature to do so. Justice, is what falls upon those who reject the righteousness of God and they bring the negative results upon themselves. Again, God will not overstep anyone's freedom of will. If God says don't put your hand into the fire or it will get burnt, and you disobey Him and do the opposite, your hand will get burned. Those who rejected and disobeyed God will be destroyed in the lake of fire. It's their choice. Just as the Egyptians who went against God and chased the children of Israel and were killed when the sea closed up. They were trapped because they rebelled against God and should not have been there in the first place when God closed the gap.

To believe that God would allow such a horrible suffering as to be tormented forever is indeed, an inaccurate and misconstrued perception to have of an ALL LOVING AND ALL GOOD GOD...besides the fact that eternal torture is NOT biblically accurate.

Satan cannot receive the atonement of Christ. He must therefore be punished. Being that death does not specifically atone for sin, he must be punished eternally. That is justice. Pure and simple.

The atonement of Christ was not for Satan. Satan/the Devil is a spirit being and he had already made his decision to usurp the throne of God. Redemption is for mankind...not evil spirits who will never seek forgiveness in the first place.

The lake of fire is most definitely reserved for the Devil, which is of his own accord along with all his followers, which they rightfully deserve. No problem there. However, what you fail to recognize is that the lake of fire is the second "death"...there is no consciousness in death. They will die the second death and will for all eternity have NO LIFE. Death, grave, sin, evil, wickedness, Satan and his followers will be UTTERLY DESTROYED..."Thus saith the Lord."

 

[o2bwise]

God's Justice Operative While He Is Love

God's Justice Operative While He Is Love

Agape, you are confusing God’s love with God’s nature of justice.

This hits the jugular.

Many proponents of the doctrine of eternal conscious torment believe something that is vast in its implications. Which is this:

IN ORDER FOR GOD TO BE JUST, HE MUST ACT CONTRARY TO LOVE.

Quite an admission. So also, quite a heresy.

Moreover, IF the way the cross saves is by the meeting of a price God demands, these two ideas are incompatible.


1. Christ satisfied the wages of sin (God's justice). This satisfaction includes an experience of horror that was perhaps a couple days long (if we include Gethsemane).

2. Eternal conscious suffering is the result of God's justice, an event which is eternal.

Apparently, the sufferings of the cross is woefully insufficient to satisfy the justice of God as applied to one group of people. All the while, the sufferings of the cross is sufficient as applied to another group (the redeemed).


cirisme, whom I won't dialogue with on theological matters for the same reason which prompts a post like:

Look, agape, your posts don't deserve a response.

believes eternal conscious torment has to do with something other than the satisfaction of God's justice. I have failed to understand his explanation (my own sense is that there really isn't one). But, anyway, cirisme asserts such a rationale.

Finally, if anyone believes the purpose of the cross is to satisfy a penalty God needs to mete out on sinners, the principle remains that it is incompatible with love. True, the scale is infinitely reduced (from infinite torture to finite torture), but the principle remains. God needs to be appeased.

The blood is not a currency paid to God to satisfy justice, it is a certain kind of revelation which, when applied to the sanctuary (mind of man) actually removes sin.

Tony (o2)

 

[AVmetro]

Differentiate...

Differentiate...

IN ORDER FOR GOD TO BE JUST, HE MUST ACT CONTRARY TO LOVE.

Total nonsense. Justice has nothing to take away from God's love. Justice is satisfied of the guilty parties own accord. God merely provided the options.

O2,Agape,

You are privately interpreting principles of God's love here.
Once again, am I to say that God does not "love" because he commands me to cut off a woman's hand as punishment. What about this:

"This is what the Lord Almighty says; 'I willl punish th Amalekites for what they did to Israel......Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels an donkeys." 1Sam15:2-3 -- I feel this is just. Neither do I feel it detracts from God's great love either. Why do I not have a problem with this contrary to you two. Open your eyes!

Agape, O2- The above scriptures I cited are used by people to deter from God's image of love. You are using no better logic...

God bless you both,
Jeremiah L.G.

 

[cirisme]

II Peter 2:4 “For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell [tartarosas], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment." Tartarus denotes the bounds or limits of those evil spirits who will face judgment in the future which is to be "destroyed" in the lake of fire.

Nice misquoting of scripture, Agape :down:. Verse 5 continues the point until verse nine...

2:5 and didn't spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood on the world of the ungodly;
2:6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly;
2:7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was very distressed by the lustful life of the wicked
2:8 (for that righteous man dwelling among them, was tormented in his righteous soul from day to day with seeing and hearing lawless deeds):
2:9 the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptation and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment;

o2,

IN ORDER FOR GOD TO BE JUST, HE MUST ACT CONTRARY TO LOVE.

So, when a parent spanks a child, the parent hates his child? Or, does the Ten Commandments prove God's hatred of the world?

agape(again),

Luke 16:14 indicates that this parable is addressed to the Pharisees. So Jesus wisely judged the Pharisees out of their own mouths, from their own vantage point, for the Pharisees believed in rewards and punishments immediately upon death as so many believe today. This parable does NOT say that Jesus believed in immediate rewards and punishment after death; that is what the "pharisees" believed. Jesus uses this parable to condemn the Pharisees and to catch them in their own erroneous beliefs.

And you have the nerve to say that I privately interpret scripture!?!?!?!

You have just demonstrated a prime example of "privately interpreting" the Word of Truth.

Thanks cirisme..

So, are we literally dead, or are we dead in our sins? I challenge you to raise proof that my "interpretation":

God is life. When seperated from God, we no longer have the life that He has, but we, in a sense, "die." Like the many times the NT says "we who were dead in our sins." This does not mean we were gone into oblivion, it just means that we are away from true life... God! The same goes for Revelation 20.

...is wrong!

Psalms 6:5:
For in death [there is] no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalms 146:4:
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10:
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun

(10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Notice, Agape that none of these verses say anything about a person being destroyed, just "nouns" being destroyed.

For in death [there is] no remembrance of thee(GOD): in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

You certainly don't think that someone completely seperated from everything is going to praise/remember God, do you?

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Just out of curiosity, do you think Ecclesiastes 9 contradicts the Biblical idea of heaven? Why or why not?

 

[agape]

Originally posted by cirisme
Agape--Luke 16:14 indicates that this parable is addressed to the Pharisees. So Jesus wisely judged the Pharisees out of their own mouths, from their own vantage point, for the Pharisees believed in rewards and punishments immediately upon death as so many believe today. This parable does NOT say that Jesus believed in immediate rewards and punishment after death; that is what the "pharisees" believed. Jesus uses this parable to condemn the Pharisees and to catch them in their own erroneous beliefs.

And you have the nerve to say that I privately interpret scripture

When I know it's just your private interpretation. What I stated can be found in the context and in understanding what the Pharisees believed. Also, I gave a number of verses to prove my point. You stated that the second death means "to be dead in sins." This cannot be found in the places that mention the "second death" at all. Therefore, it is your "own" private interpretation.

So, are we literally dead, or are we dead in our sins? I challenge you to raise proof that my "interpretation"

Does it say that the second death is referring to "dead in our sins?" You said it so you prove it with scripture.

Notice, Agape that none of these verses say anything about a person being destroyed, just "nouns" being destroyed.

Those verses were not posted to say anything about a person being destroyed. You stated that it was not true that those who die have no remembrance or as you put it "a place of forgetfulness." I think you need to read what I stated more carefully. I gave you scripture references which you still deny. It's right there in black and white and you say it doesn't exist.

Verses 5-7 of II Peter 2 speak about "destruction"...not eternal torture which is my whole point.

Just out of curiosity, do you think Ecclesiastes 9 contradicts the Biblical idea of heaven? Why or why not?

What do you mean by this? What's your point? Please be more specific.

So, when a parent spanks a child, the parent hates his child? Or, does the Ten Commandments prove God's hatred of the world?

Using the rod of correction as the Word explains it does not mean that the parent hates the child. However, if a parent put the child in place where he/she would suffer for all eternity, then I would say definitely yes...the parent hates the child. The ten commandments proves the righteousness of God. It is good not to steal, kill, covet...etc., there is no hate of the world? I find your questions rather illogical.

 

[sojouner]

Regarding Luke 16:19-31

19 ¶ Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, faring sumptuously every day:
20 and a certain beggar named Lazarus was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table; yea, even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried.
23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted, and thou art in anguish.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that they that would pass from hence to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from thence to us.
27 And he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house;
28 for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 But Abraham saith, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one go to them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, if one "RISE" from the dead.!!!!!!
The point of this whole parable is to do with ressurrection not wafting off to some place at death .
Where in scripture are we taught that we have an immortal soul?
What is the scriptural definition of a soul?
Genesis 2vs7 is the best place to start !
7 And the LORD <03068> God <0430> formed <03335> (8799) man <0120> of the dust <06083> of <04480> the ground <0127>, and breathed <05301> (8799) into his nostrils <0639> the breath <05397> of life <02416>; and man <0120> became a living <02416> soul <05315>.

The numbers within the <> signs are strongs concordance numbers.

Interesting to note that Man wasn't alive until God breathed into him and he became a living soul (breathing creature).
I liken it to a motor bike , you've got the petrol and the machinery already to go all you need to do is kick it over (breath of life )to get the machinery working .(kick it into life)
Also note that when Adam was told not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil .

16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

In vs 17 the 'thou shalt surely die" in the original language means Dying thou shalt surely die .
That is a curse not a blessing For if when we die we whizz of to heaven Death is then a blessing not a curse and God also has lied to us .
What is the Christian hope then?
read chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians
In my circles it is known as the ressurection chapter!!
1 thessalonians 3 vs 13 :
¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

What are we to be comforted with ? The fact of the ressurrection ! Jesus was the first fruits we at the appointed time shall be Ressurrected (if we happen to be asleep at the time ) and we shall meet him in the air and then we shall go with him to the New Jerusalem Which will be parked on top of M.T Zion in Israel!!

Do souls die?
Ezekiel 18v4 :
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
And also 18vs20 :
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Also from these we can deduce that Souls are not a "devine spark" For they die (cease to exist , kaput , expired , dead as a dodo ,not alive anymore , 6 feet under pushing up daisies , kicked the bucket , bought the farm ETC...)
More cogitative material for you to chew the cud over

 

[geralduk]

Originally posted by agape
So you are saying that God's purpose in allowing eternal torture is so He could have love?!! And this makes sense to you? Is this how God wants to be love? Actually, the entire Word supports my statement. God IS LOVE...God IS LIGHT, AND IN HIM IS NO DARKNESS AT ALL. The reason God would not allow eternal torture is because He loves even His enemies. God can only give that which He is: Love and Light.

As I have already posted and as the Scriptures state:

God clearly says in Romans 6:23 that "that wages of sin is DEATH.

The Bible plainly teaches that flesh and blood is subject to combustion and death (Hebrews 9:27; Genesis 3:19; Ecclesiastes 3:20). Malachi 4:3 says that in the end the ASHES of the wicked will be under the feet of the righteous. The wicked will be destroyed and will die that death, the second death, from which there will never be a resurrection (Revelation 20:6, 14).

IMHO--anyone who believes God would allow those who rejected Him and His Son Jesus Christ, to endure such horrendous suffering for all eternity, neither knows nor understands the love and heart of God.

Heaven would be HELL and a torment for the wicked!
Just a thought.
The judgemnt of the wicked is ALSO out of LOVE.
HELL IS reserved FOR THE DEVIL and all his angels or messengers.
Therefore if you are not FOR God,ultimately you are for the devil and will in the finmnal analysis be doing his will not Gods.
Therfofre they who do so will also finish up where he will.
The scriptures also tell us that sinn seperates us from God.
From WHom EVERY good and perfect gift cometh from.
Therefore the torture is not from God.
But from unrequited need or appetite.
For if man denies Him from whom all the good things he enjoys on this life are taken fro granted.
when he dies how then can he reccieve from God that which all his life he has rejected the scource from which they have come!?
So he will be thirsty,but have nothing to quench his thirst.
he will be hungry but have nothing to feed on.
For being dead he has no body nor 'a 'place for him'
How then can he eat or drink!?
For by feeding ONLY the flesh he neglected the spirit.
So when he dies even what he thought he had shall be taken away from him.
And this is not ecvebn covering the basest of sins and there rightfull judgement!
If by rejecting God and He whom He has sent you are rejecting then Gods mercy and grace that you may NOT end there.
Caine REJECTED Christ and so found no place of repentance.

Herein is |Love not that we loevd God but that God loved us while we were yet sinners and died for us.
BUT if we do not aCCEPT Christ how is then that LOVE manifested to US PERSONAALY!
IT ISNT"Even though God loves us,yet we do not KNOW that love or mercy untill we know and reccccive Christ aand ther salvation of God.
The love manifested to the "WORLD" is not the same as manifested to His childen!
Nor is it the same of His children who walk far from HIM and those who walk CLOSE to Him.
For even though It is clear "having loved them He loved them to the end"
Yet with all that there was ONE "whom Jesus loved"!
Namely the one who leant on His breast at the last supper.
Who was not "deceived" by Judas's aparant love of the poor.
And out of all the Apostles was the only one who could say "WHO is it Lord?" NOT..... "Is it I Lord"?
So the LOVE of God is manifested to all in differnet ways.
To the wicked He has no pleasure inthe downfall.But for loves sake will judge them.
Then will come the WAILING WHICH IS THE DISPARE.
Then will come the WEEPING which is the sorrow of a missed opertunity.
The will come the knashing of teath in HATRED AND FRUSTRATION.
But to no avail.and they will be cast into a lake of fire. where there will be a consiouis awareness of what has been done and missed.
That is NOT Gods doing but mens.
Jesus said I will not judge you but MY WORDS Will.
It si our response to the Word and the DOING of them is the thing.
As it was in the beginning.
He gave Adam and Eve EVERY good thing,INCLUDING the KNOWLEDGE of what WAS good and evil.
But they rejected it.
and so sin came into the world and death by sin.
Man shall not live by bread alone,but by EVERY word that proceedeth from the mouth of God.