C
cirisme
Guest
Really?!?
Sounds like hell to me...
ARCHIVE: The reality of "Hell"
- Thread starter AVmetro
- Start date
Really?!?
Sounds like hell to me...
C
cirisme
Guest
Just out of curiosity, o2, but why suddenly change the subject? What is your proof that hell is finite?
Evangelion
New member
AV -
It comes from university, actually.
You know - that big, important place where rich people get educated?
Cirisme -
"The place of death", eh? "Sounds like hell" to you, eh?
Tell me, Cirisme - I'm curious to know - for how long have you believed that everyone goes to hell when they die?
And would you mind telling me why you're happy to use a Bible translation which renders the Hebrew word for "death" as "hell"?
What a joke.
It comes from university, actually.
You know - that big, important place where rich people get educated? Cirisme -
"The place of death", eh? "Sounds like hell" to you, eh?
Tell me, Cirisme - I'm curious to know - for how long have you believed that everyone goes to hell when they die?
And would you mind telling me why you're happy to use a Bible translation which renders the Hebrew word for "death" as "hell"?
What a joke.
agape
New member
Notice that verse 11 of Revelation 14, says,;"The SMOKE of their torment ascends forever and ever." It is not saying that these individuals will be tormented forever in an ever-burning hell. God is not a sadist who wishes to torment His enemies perpetually. He clearly says in Romans 6:23 that "that wages of sin is death," and that is what is being described here: a death of short-lived agony.
The latter part of verse 11 is referring to their previous condition on the earth as "day and night" which can hardly be spoken of the eternal state. "And they have no rest who are worshipping," etc. It is in the present participle and cannot mean who have worshipped or who did worship. "Receiveth" is also in the present tense implying that on earth they will have no rest day and night while they are engaged in worshipping the Beast; and as to eternity, "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever."
The Bible plainly teaches that flesh and blood is subject to death (Hebrews 9:27; Genesis 3:19; Ecclesiastes 3:20). Malachi 4:3 says that in the end the ashes of the wicked will be under the feet of the righteous. The wicked will be destroyed and will die that death, the second death, from which there will never be a resurrection (Revelation 20:6, 14).
I do not mean to be judgmental because I believe that there are a number of Christians who come here are sincere in their beliefs. However, sincerity is not always a guarantee for truth.
IMHO, Anyone who believes God would allow those who rejected Him and His Son Jesus Christ, to endure such horrendous suffering for all eternity, neither knows nor understands the love of God.
All darkness, evil, wickedness, suffering will vanish and exist no more.
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the Lord, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall VANISH away.
There will be no eternal suffering for the wicked for they shall all perish.
To be honest in handling the Word of Truth, one cannot isolate a few verses of scripture apart from the others and say this is what the Word of God teaches. It is necessary to study and view all Scripture that relates to the same subject matter as a whole. In doing this, we will come a true and accurate conclusion.
The latter part of verse 11 is referring to their previous condition on the earth as "day and night" which can hardly be spoken of the eternal state. "And they have no rest who are worshipping," etc. It is in the present participle and cannot mean who have worshipped or who did worship. "Receiveth" is also in the present tense implying that on earth they will have no rest day and night while they are engaged in worshipping the Beast; and as to eternity, "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever."
The Bible plainly teaches that flesh and blood is subject to death (Hebrews 9:27; Genesis 3:19; Ecclesiastes 3:20). Malachi 4:3 says that in the end the ashes of the wicked will be under the feet of the righteous. The wicked will be destroyed and will die that death, the second death, from which there will never be a resurrection (Revelation 20:6, 14).
I do not mean to be judgmental because I believe that there are a number of Christians who come here are sincere in their beliefs. However, sincerity is not always a guarantee for truth.
IMHO, Anyone who believes God would allow those who rejected Him and His Son Jesus Christ, to endure such horrendous suffering for all eternity, neither knows nor understands the love of God.
All darkness, evil, wickedness, suffering will vanish and exist no more.
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the Lord, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall VANISH away.
There will be no eternal suffering for the wicked for they shall all perish.
To be honest in handling the Word of Truth, one cannot isolate a few verses of scripture apart from the others and say this is what the Word of God teaches. It is necessary to study and view all Scripture that relates to the same subject matter as a whole. In doing this, we will come a true and accurate conclusion.
Evangelion
New member
Well played, Agape! :up:
Straight to the boundary for six!
Straight to the boundary for six!
C
cirisme
Guest
And I care about your opinion because....?
Ever since Jesus refered to death for the believer as "sleep."
Once again, we have a complete (and delibrate) misunderstanding. Hell is not about torture.
Anyone who thinks God would force people to choose them must realize there is no love. God gives us a choice to love Him or reject Him. He'll do everything He can, short of forcing us, to get us to love Him. Now, if He forces people to love Him, then that wouldn't really be love, now would it? He wants to be in harmony with His creation, us! You can't be in harmony if one party is against it, can you?
Your point? Hell is about complete seperation from everything! From God, from believers, from unbelievers. Totally and completely seperated. Of course they're gonna vanish!
Why do you keep doing that?
Evangelion
New member
Well, that was a pretty little mess of quotes.
I'll pick out those which were clearly addressed to me, and ignore the rest.
I am not asking you to care about my opinion. I am asking you to care about the correct translation of God's Word. I used to find it hard to believe that someone who claims to be a Christian, would be content with a Bible which contains obvious distortions.
That was before I met you.
This does not answer my question.
I had asked:
Tell me, Cirisme - I'm curious to know - for how long have you believed that everyone goes to hell when they die?
I have asked this question in order to emphasise the full extent of your false equivocation of "hell" and "death." Now, please answer my question.
Eternal torment without relief. Hmmm...
...sounds like torture to me.
What would you call it? Club Med?
I'll pick out those which were clearly addressed to me, and ignore the rest.
I am not asking you to care about my opinion. I am asking you to care about the correct translation of God's Word. I used to find it hard to believe that someone who claims to be a Christian, would be content with a Bible which contains obvious distortions.
That was before I met you.
This does not answer my question.
I had asked:
Tell me, Cirisme - I'm curious to know - for how long have you believed that everyone goes to hell when they die?
I have asked this question in order to emphasise the full extent of your false equivocation of "hell" and "death." Now, please answer my question.
Eternal torment without relief. Hmmm...
...sounds like torture to me.
What would you call it? Club Med?
C
cirisme
Guest
Wrong, again! I use over 15 translations, but I do have favorites. And how is it wrong when the context clearly means hell?
It's about seperation from God. I thought you didn't believe in a fiery hell, anyway?
Okay, the question was...
Nice straw man, ev. Can you make an elephant out of straw like that?
That's not my position, ev. I believe the context of this verse shows seperation from God, meaning hell. Meaning the translation is correct. Meaning o2 is correct...
Evangelion
New member
Cirisme -
How can the context "clearly mean hell", when (a) the word that is used, means "death", and (b) the (later) Christian concept of "hell" was totally unknown to the OT Jews?
Oh, so you believe in the Post-Modern hell. My mistake.
I don't.
The verse in question refers to "death." You argue that it refers to "hell." The verse in question clearly refers to something that comes to every men and woman. If I went along with your translation, I'd have to conclude that we all go to hell when we die.
So where's your proof that this verse refers to "hell"? And how do you define "hell" anyway? As a place in which "souls" reside after the death of the body?
No, the translation is still incorrect, because the translators have taken a word which means "death", and translated it as "hell." Which it does not mean.
O2 said this:
How can the context "clearly mean hell", when (a) the word that is used, means "death", and (b) the (later) Christian concept of "hell" was totally unknown to the OT Jews?
Oh, so you believe in the Post-Modern hell. My mistake.
I don't.
The verse in question refers to "death." You argue that it refers to "hell." The verse in question clearly refers to something that comes to every men and woman. If I went along with your translation, I'd have to conclude that we all go to hell when we die.
So where's your proof that this verse refers to "hell"? And how do you define "hell" anyway? As a place in which "souls" reside after the death of the body?
No, the translation is still incorrect, because the translators have taken a word which means "death", and translated it as "hell." Which it does not mean.
O2 said this:
Hades IS the grave.
SHEOL (Hebrew) = HADES (Greek) = GRAVE (English)
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You guys wanna see my toys..?..
You guys wanna see my toys..?..
I leave again only to come back with everyone playing without me!
Very, very salient points being made....tsk...tsk...
I'll get back to the word "hell", 'God of love' etc......When I get back..
God bless,
Jeremiah L.G.
You guys wanna see my toys..?..
I leave again only to come back with everyone playing without me!
Very, very salient points being made....tsk...tsk...
I'll get back to the word "hell", 'God of love' etc......When I get back..
God bless,
Jeremiah L.G.
agape
New member
Re: You guys wanna see my toys..?..
Re: You guys wanna see my toys..?..
Re: You guys wanna see my toys..?..
Of course I have already considered that it would be viewed as salient points made by a mind, such as yours, who finds it difficult to to think logically.Originally posted by AVmetro
I leave again only to come back with everyone playing without me!
Very, very salient points being made....tsk...tsk.
..Minds, such as yours, who find it difficult to think independently.
Apage, do you understand just how non-threatening you are to my faith? I've actually tried to sluff you off several times. Ev would like to say the same of me, however that's why he answers every tittle I post up
. Now go sit in Ev's lap. You two 'twinkies' give each other a couple of sweat slackered high fives.
I wouldn't wet my panties too soon :kiss: .
btw You never answered me...Are you a boy or a girl?
Jeremiah L.G.
"Hell" should be correctly translated as 'Gehanna'. A waste valley near, I believe, Jerusalem. Hence the reference to "worms" and "sulfur".
Sheol is the 'afterlife' where the Jews believed the dead to reside.
Comparable to 'Hades'.
"Hell' or 'Gehanna' was strictly analogous of the actual destination to come.
As for 'Hades'-- "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire..." Rev20:14. I don't think 'Hades' or 'Hell', as in the KJV, plays a role as concerning the 'lake of fire'. This actually brings up a very good point. More on it......
God bless,
Jeremiah L.G.
Sheol is the 'afterlife' where the Jews believed the dead to reside.
Comparable to 'Hades'.
"Hell' or 'Gehanna' was strictly analogous of the actual destination to come.
As for 'Hades'-- "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire..." Rev20:14. I don't think 'Hades' or 'Hell', as in the KJV, plays a role as concerning the 'lake of fire'. This actually brings up a very good point. More on it......
God bless,
Jeremiah L.G.
C
cirisme
Guest
EV,
(A) I showed o2 on page six, I recommend you take a look. (B) This is relevant because...?
Where's your proof it doesn't?
A place of complete seperation, mostly from God.
AV,
Laughs hysterically...
(A) I showed o2 on page six, I recommend you take a look. (B) This is relevant because...?
Where's your proof it doesn't?
A place of complete seperation, mostly from God.
AV,
Laughs hysterically...
C
cirisme
Guest
Perhaps it's better we don't know.
C
cirisme
Guest
EV,
WOW!!!!!! We actually agree on something! Remember this moment, it may never happen again.
WOW!!!!!! We actually agree on something! Remember this moment, it may never happen again.
C
cirisme
Guest
Please share!
Dude-eronomy
New member
Perhaps you'd care to elaborate:
(1 John 2:2) "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." This passage is also featured in my denomination's liturgy.
How is the "whole world" part wrong?
You seem to be all over the place, cirisme. When was anyone ever forgiven then punished? It can be said that we ask for unhappiness when we follow our own wills rather than God's, but seeking God's will is a very personal process.
To reiterate: Would you tell your kid that it's okay that he spilled his milk, then spank him and send him to bed?
--Mark