ARCHIVE: The reality of "Hell"
- Thread starter AVmetro
- Start date
missedmarks
New member
Just my two cents.
I think the whole fire thing is just an illustration for the fact that hell will be a rather negative state of being.
When it comes down to it, the 'big' sin (Lucifer's sin) is pride. All the other sins basically revolve around putting one's self first (Pride). The only way to be saved is to depend on God, so therefore the main way to damnation is to rely on one's self. In the end, when the sheep and the goats are seperated, the Goats will not be the ones who were "Naughty" they will be the one's who felt they didn't need God, or didn't want him.
In the end I think they will get exactly what they wanted (Satan and his rebel angels as well) total absence from God. I do not think hell is going to be a prison where God is going to "Get even" with Satan and the "goats" I think it will be whatever is leftover when he finally seperates himself and is done with them.
Just my opinion, add that to 50 cents and you can get a cup of coffee at your cheaper donut shops.
I think the whole fire thing is just an illustration for the fact that hell will be a rather negative state of being.
When it comes down to it, the 'big' sin (Lucifer's sin) is pride. All the other sins basically revolve around putting one's self first (Pride). The only way to be saved is to depend on God, so therefore the main way to damnation is to rely on one's self. In the end, when the sheep and the goats are seperated, the Goats will not be the ones who were "Naughty" they will be the one's who felt they didn't need God, or didn't want him.
In the end I think they will get exactly what they wanted (Satan and his rebel angels as well) total absence from God. I do not think hell is going to be a prison where God is going to "Get even" with Satan and the "goats" I think it will be whatever is leftover when he finally seperates himself and is done with them.
Just my opinion, add that to 50 cents and you can get a cup of coffee at your cheaper donut shops.
Es muy caliente!...
Es muy caliente!...
This is a very rough draft of my "hell" thing. All scripture is taken from the NWT of the JWs so bear with it
.
Mal2:17 "You people have made Jehovah weary by your words......'Everyone that is doing bad is good in the eyes of Jehovah,......Where is the God of justice?"
*Why are the people here complaining. Is God's justice of no effect? See Deut32:3-4
"For I shall declare the name of Jehovah,..perfect....For all his ways are justice.....with whom there is no injustice. Righteous and upright is he."
*Justice must be satisfied in order to fulfill God's nature.
How does God satisfy required justice? See Deut19:20
"So those who remain wil hear and be afraid.....soul will be for soul, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot."
*Earthly justice to be satisfied in that the punishment must 'cancel out' the offending sin. (*note: Example; Adam's "death" required the equal justice of Christ's death on the cross.)
See Matt5:38-41
"You heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. However I say to you: Do not resist him that is wicked; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him."
*Why are people told 'not to exact justice' in the time of Christ? Why did Jesus change the manner in which justice was to be carried out? (Justice now comes after death). See Heb9:27
"...it is reserved for men to die once......after this a judgement. Christ was offered once.....to bear the sins of many....to those earnestly looking for him for salvation."
*Because of Christ's sacrifice, judgement has been reserved for after death. See Heb10:4
"For it is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take sins away."
*Those without Christ are still to satisfy God's just nature.
See Jn8:24
"For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins."
*Animal sacrifice cannot remove sin. ONLY Christ can appease God's demand for justice as pertaining to sin. After death there is judgement, and the sin remains. Who does God's justice demand to hold accountable? See Jn8:44
"You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father."
*He who sins @ all does the will of satan. Remember the serpant in Eden? Satan is the origin of God's wrath. He who does the will of the devil makes him their "guide". For guides destination, See Matt15:14
"If then a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
*If the devil is your guide, you will follow him, of your own accord ,toward his designated destination. God's wrath is upon him. For the "pit" See Matt25:41
"....into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
*Let us first note that "Sheol" is not the same as "the lake of fire" (Rev20:14). The "lake of fire" is prepare specifically for satan. Travel there otherwise is of one's own initiative.
Why referred to as "everlasting" See Lev16:34
"And this must serve (law) as a statute to time indefinite for you in order to make atonement for the sons of Israel....."
*If you are not "dead" to the law through Christ, then you are (alive to) still under (held responsible for satisfying) the system of the OT covenant; proclaimed for everlasting. See Rom8:4
"God....condemned sin in the flesh (of Christ)..that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us.."
*If sin remains @ death then @ the resurrection you will be judged according to your works which follow you (Rev14:13).
After death, obtaining Christ's 'satisfaction of the OT covenant' is not an option and the requirement is not[/b] fulfilled. See Dan12:2
"And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, thesse to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches to indefinitely lasting abhorrence."
*God is eternal and therefore possesses eternal justice. If the requiremetn is not fulfilled before death, then sin remains eternally unatoned for. Therefore God's eternal just nature demands just punishment. If there is no conciousness after death, how will the punishment be made known to the punishee?
How can one feel "everlasting contempt" if dead? There is no contempt in heaven.
Can death itself satisfy God's wrath? No. See Deut5:9
"...bringing punishment for the error of the fathers upon sons and upon the third generation and upon th fourth generation,..."
*After all we are ALL still being punished for the original sin fo Adam outside of Christ's atonement.
Remeber the above is very rough and still needs revision and work. But that's what this thread is for.
God bless,
AV
Es muy caliente!...
This is a very rough draft of my "hell" thing. All scripture is taken from the NWT of the JWs so bear with it
.Mal2:17 "You people have made Jehovah weary by your words......'Everyone that is doing bad is good in the eyes of Jehovah,......Where is the God of justice?"
*Why are the people here complaining. Is God's justice of no effect? See Deut32:3-4
"For I shall declare the name of Jehovah,..perfect....For all his ways are justice.....with whom there is no injustice. Righteous and upright is he."
*Justice must be satisfied in order to fulfill God's nature.
How does God satisfy required justice? See Deut19:20
"So those who remain wil hear and be afraid.....soul will be for soul, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot."
*Earthly justice to be satisfied in that the punishment must 'cancel out' the offending sin. (*note: Example; Adam's "death" required the equal justice of Christ's death on the cross.)
See Matt5:38-41
"You heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. However I say to you: Do not resist him that is wicked; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him."
*Why are people told 'not to exact justice' in the time of Christ? Why did Jesus change the manner in which justice was to be carried out? (Justice now comes after death). See Heb9:27
"...it is reserved for men to die once......after this a judgement. Christ was offered once.....to bear the sins of many....to those earnestly looking for him for salvation."
*Because of Christ's sacrifice, judgement has been reserved for after death. See Heb10:4
"For it is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take sins away."
*Those without Christ are still to satisfy God's just nature.
See Jn8:24
"For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins."
*Animal sacrifice cannot remove sin. ONLY Christ can appease God's demand for justice as pertaining to sin. After death there is judgement, and the sin remains. Who does God's justice demand to hold accountable? See Jn8:44
"You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father."
*He who sins @ all does the will of satan. Remember the serpant in Eden? Satan is the origin of God's wrath. He who does the will of the devil makes him their "guide". For guides destination, See Matt15:14
"If then a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
*If the devil is your guide, you will follow him, of your own accord ,toward his designated destination. God's wrath is upon him. For the "pit" See Matt25:41
"....into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
*Let us first note that "Sheol" is not the same as "the lake of fire" (Rev20:14). The "lake of fire" is prepare specifically for satan. Travel there otherwise is of one's own initiative.
Why referred to as "everlasting" See Lev16:34
"And this must serve (law) as a statute to time indefinite for you in order to make atonement for the sons of Israel....."
*If you are not "dead" to the law through Christ, then you are (alive to) still under (held responsible for satisfying) the system of the OT covenant; proclaimed for everlasting. See Rom8:4
"God....condemned sin in the flesh (of Christ)..that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us.."
*If sin remains @ death then @ the resurrection you will be judged according to your works which follow you (Rev14:13).
After death, obtaining Christ's 'satisfaction of the OT covenant' is not an option and the requirement is not[/b] fulfilled. See Dan12:2
"And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, thesse to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches to indefinitely lasting abhorrence."
*God is eternal and therefore possesses eternal justice. If the requiremetn is not fulfilled before death, then sin remains eternally unatoned for. Therefore God's eternal just nature demands just punishment. If there is no conciousness after death, how will the punishment be made known to the punishee?
How can one feel "everlasting contempt" if dead? There is no contempt in heaven.
Can death itself satisfy God's wrath? No. See Deut5:9
"...bringing punishment for the error of the fathers upon sons and upon the third generation and upon th fourth generation,..."
*After all we are ALL still being punished for the original sin fo Adam outside of Christ's atonement.
Remeber the above is very rough and still needs revision and work. But that's what this thread is for
.God bless,
AV
C
cirisme
Guest
I agree with this, missedmarks.
AV, excellent post. I believe that hell doesn't have much to do with "justice", per se. I believe that God does demand justice, but I believe that's what the government was established(by God) for. For instance, if the government gives a criminal life in prison, then God did the same(only, never-ending life), wouldn't that be "two eyes for an eye"? If everybody will get their just desert in the end, why did God go to the trouble of setting up a nation with such a complex justice system, Israel?
Just as an example, when Cain killed Abel, God commanded that no one kill Cain. Why? I believe, because there was no government but God, He was the only one with the authority for the death penalty. But after the flood, He reversed the policy. He said that you must kill murderers. Did God change? Of course not, instead He set up governments and gave them the authority(and accountability) to execute justice. Likewise, Jesus kept people from stoning the adultereous. I don't believe this was a change in policy either, just Jesus saying, "Hey, who died and made you government?"
Now I have the problem of tying this into hell...
Dude-eronomy
New member
But wait a minute! Our sins have been forgiven, and not only ours, but the sins of the entire world. Without transgression, how can there be punishment?
People, we have won the lottery and it's about time we began behaving like rich people...
--Mark
People, we have won the lottery and it's about time we began behaving like rich people...
--Mark
C
cirisme
Guest
The "Our sins have been forgiven" part is true, but "not only ours, but the sins of the entire world" is wrong. So, the part about there not being transgression is wrong.
Also, even if our sins are forgiven, there still must be punishment here on Earth. Let me explain myself,
when a person sins he commits a crime. A crime in God's law. He commits that act against the victim, the law, and God Himself. Jesus took the punishment that comes for the sin against God. However, the sin against the victim, and the law remains. That's why we need a justice system.
C
cirisme
Guest
I'm not sure that's as clear as it should be, if anybody needs clarification, let me know.
Aimiel
Well-known member
I have not seen anyone address this verse:
Revelation 14:11
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
Where there is smoke, there is fire. Death and hell are to be cast into the lake of fire. That fire will never be quenched (Mark 9:43 & 45). There are no water-fountains in the lake of fire. There are worms, which never die. This is the description the Bible gives of the destruction, which was prepared for the devil and his angels, and is due to every soul who has ever lived; unless they come to a saving faith in Jesus. He is the only door to the Father.
Hell is a place. It is what is left of the paradise Adam and Eve were placed in. It is where the saints of old waited for Jesus to come and preach to them; because it used to be a sort of holding pen, for those who G_d knew would believe, and yet had no way of hearing the Gospel, for it had not yet been revealed. It has, since their deliverance, been re-decorated. If the torments of hell, which we find in the Bible, are scary, remember that death (which is a spirit) and hell, along with all of its prisoners, will be cast into the lake of fire. That is the second death. To have no hope of escape, no one to talk to, and no one to care. There will be no comfort in the lake of fire, no release, no reprieve, no rest and no light. Only darkness and suffering without let-up. That is worse than just not existing. If someone could just 'not exist,' that would be a neat trick, especially in the face of such a hopeless future. The spirit of men, demons and all the enemies of G_d are eternal beings, and there will be no end to their torment. This is G_d's perfect justice. He did not design it this way, but this is how it worked out, due to the invention of sin and the following by Adam and every man since him, except One: Jesus.
If there were no eternal death, as the lake of fire will be, there would have been no need for Him to take the form of a man and die to provide an avenue of escape. He could just say, "Olly olly oxen free," and we could all just march up to Heaven. He prayed that He would not have to die to the point of His blood pressure being greater than His skin could contain. That was how badly He wanted to not have to taste of the first death. It was not possible, because His sacrifice was necessary, or no one could have been saved. Thank G_d that He accepted it, willingly. If He had not, no one could get into Heaven.
Revelation 14:11
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
Where there is smoke, there is fire. Death and hell are to be cast into the lake of fire. That fire will never be quenched (Mark 9:43 & 45). There are no water-fountains in the lake of fire. There are worms, which never die. This is the description the Bible gives of the destruction, which was prepared for the devil and his angels, and is due to every soul who has ever lived; unless they come to a saving faith in Jesus. He is the only door to the Father.
Hell is a place. It is what is left of the paradise Adam and Eve were placed in. It is where the saints of old waited for Jesus to come and preach to them; because it used to be a sort of holding pen, for those who G_d knew would believe, and yet had no way of hearing the Gospel, for it had not yet been revealed. It has, since their deliverance, been re-decorated. If the torments of hell, which we find in the Bible, are scary, remember that death (which is a spirit) and hell, along with all of its prisoners, will be cast into the lake of fire. That is the second death. To have no hope of escape, no one to talk to, and no one to care. There will be no comfort in the lake of fire, no release, no reprieve, no rest and no light. Only darkness and suffering without let-up. That is worse than just not existing. If someone could just 'not exist,' that would be a neat trick, especially in the face of such a hopeless future. The spirit of men, demons and all the enemies of G_d are eternal beings, and there will be no end to their torment. This is G_d's perfect justice. He did not design it this way, but this is how it worked out, due to the invention of sin and the following by Adam and every man since him, except One: Jesus.
If there were no eternal death, as the lake of fire will be, there would have been no need for Him to take the form of a man and die to provide an avenue of escape. He could just say, "Olly olly oxen free," and we could all just march up to Heaven. He prayed that He would not have to die to the point of His blood pressure being greater than His skin could contain. That was how badly He wanted to not have to taste of the first death. It was not possible, because His sacrifice was necessary, or no one could have been saved. Thank G_d that He accepted it, willingly. If He had not, no one could get into Heaven.
o2bwise
New member
Smoke = Symbol
Smoke = Symbol
Hi famousGandalf,
If you could demonstrate that dragons and other beats are to be taken literally, I might think you had something.
How do you know the smoke is not symbolic?
All God's creation will benefit from a two-fold revelation. One, the death that is inherent to sin. Two, the life that is inherent to righteousness.
Smoke is a revelation of what sin does to the lost. God's servants will retain an eternal recollection of that smoke.
You don't seriously think it'll be like the physical part of the lost will somehow never fully burn up, but the smoky byproduct of this combustible reaction will ascend to heaven forever where the redeemed will actually look at it, do you?
Is that part of the eternal state of bliss that you discern? Imagine if the smoke was the smoke of your wife or son or mother burning up.
You really believe that?
Smoke = Symbol
Hi famousGandalf,
If you could demonstrate that dragons and other beats are to be taken literally, I might think you had something.
How do you know the smoke is not symbolic?
All God's creation will benefit from a two-fold revelation. One, the death that is inherent to sin. Two, the life that is inherent to righteousness.
Smoke is a revelation of what sin does to the lost. God's servants will retain an eternal recollection of that smoke.
You don't seriously think it'll be like the physical part of the lost will somehow never fully burn up, but the smoky byproduct of this combustible reaction will ascend to heaven forever where the redeemed will actually look at it, do you?
Is that part of the eternal state of bliss that you discern? Imagine if the smoke was the smoke of your wife or son or mother burning up.
You really believe that?
O2bwise...
O2bwise...
O2, you're using the 'heart tug' tactic that atheists and the like use in reference to the bible as a whole. I could say the same for many of the Levitical "stoning" laws.
The 'smoke' etc..may be symbolic, but the fact that there will be conscious punishment is not.
O2, refer back to my argument in my last post on this thread. I need to refine it anyhow...
God bless you in the highest O2 :up: ,
Jeremiah L.G.
O2bwise...
O2, you're using the 'heart tug' tactic that atheists and the like use in reference to the bible as a whole. I could say the same for many of the Levitical "stoning" laws
.The 'smoke' etc..may be symbolic, but the fact that there will be conscious punishment is not.
O2, refer back to my argument in my last post on this thread. I need to refine it anyhow...
God bless you in the highest O2 :up: ,
Jeremiah L.G.
C
cirisme
Guest
Hey! What about me!?
LOL
Evangelion
New member
Cirisme -
He's using the KJV. Don't you know the KJV when you see it?
Who cares about "your translation"? Have you ever checked the Hebrew word that is used in this verse?
Let's take a look, shall we?
He's using the KJV. Don't you know the KJV when you see it?
Who cares about "your translation"? Have you ever checked the Hebrew word that is used in this verse?
Let's take a look, shall we?
Psalm 6:5.
For in death 4194 there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks
mâveth
1) Death, dying, death (personified), realm of the dead.
1a) Death.
1b) Death by violence (as a penalty.)
1c) State of death, place of death.
o2bwise
New member
Citations Please?
Citations Please?
Hi AV,
Where is this heart tug tactic? Can you cite it for me?
For your information, I believe the lost will suffer an experience just as horrifying and just as finite (in time) as Christ suffered on the cross - only worse. For their response will be despair while Christ's was a victorious faith.
Can you cite where I ever said there wouldn't be conscious punishment? I believe there will be, but the DURATION will be finite. Just as the Levitical stoning law you mentioned was finite in time duration.
By the way, AV, you are a frequent employer of guilt by association. In other words, take a "bad" group, say that they do it too or believe it too, and (I suppose) imply a conclusion that says the tactic or belief or whatever must be wrong.
JW's believe there is a God. Are they wrong? My point: guilt by association is a logically flawed device. It substantiates nothing and only lessens the veracity of the argument of the person employing such a device.
God Bless,
Tony (o2)
Citations Please?
Hi AV,
Where is this heart tug tactic? Can you cite it for me?
For your information, I believe the lost will suffer an experience just as horrifying and just as finite (in time) as Christ suffered on the cross - only worse. For their response will be despair while Christ's was a victorious faith.
Can you cite where I ever said there wouldn't be conscious punishment? I believe there will be, but the DURATION will be finite. Just as the Levitical stoning law you mentioned was finite in time duration.
By the way, AV, you are a frequent employer of guilt by association. In other words, take a "bad" group, say that they do it too or believe it too, and (I suppose) imply a conclusion that says the tactic or belief or whatever must be wrong.
JW's believe there is a God. Are they wrong? My point: guilt by association is a logically flawed device. It substantiates nothing and only lessens the veracity of the argument of the person employing such a device.
God Bless,
Tony (o2)
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Evangelion
New member
O2 -
Yes, he definitely is.
It's his stock in trade - the mark of an uneducated man.
Yes, he definitely is.
It's his stock in trade - the mark of an uneducated man.
Evangelion
New member
Bored? Yes. Your entertainment value expired a long time ago. But I'm still curious to know the extent of your formal education, especially since you have occasionally made snide remarks about my education.
As for this...
...it's utterly meaningless.
As for this...
...it's utterly meaningless.
"Is that part of the eternal state of bliss that you discern? Imagine if the smoke was the smoke of your wife or son or mother burning up. "<<<
You seem to be implying that one shouldn't believe in "hell" because it doesn't 'fit' what we would like.
I meant to emphasize the eternal aspect.
If the other group is indeed wrong then yes, I'll make a comparison to that......as for the below..
Wrong. JWs follow a 'different' Christ than that of the bible. Therefore they are wrong in that as well.
I do not imploy guilt by association, but demonstrate the similarites of tactics.
God bless,
AV
Ev, your education evidently comes from your brother. Same quotes, same debate tactics, same insults, same arguments, same everything. If I had "Dr." in front of my name you would no doubt sluff it off as you do everyone else. Education is irrelevant to you, much as are the scriptures themselves.
o2bwise
New member
And What Makes Something "Comparible"?
And What Makes Something "Comparible"?
Hi AV,
But, what makes it "comparable" is a PROOF that the thing being compared IS WRONG. In other words, the only valid forum is the forum that is the veracity of one's argument.
Thus, when you employ guilt by association, there is no validation that what you are using it for IS COMPARABLE.
As I said, JW's believe there is a God. Are they always wrong? If they are, we should all be atheists.
In other words, the guilt by association tack doesn't work. Force of argument is the only forum which works.
Tony
And What Makes Something "Comparible"?
Hi AV,
But, what makes it "comparable" is a PROOF that the thing being compared IS WRONG. In other words, the only valid forum is the forum that is the veracity of one's argument.
Thus, when you employ guilt by association, there is no validation that what you are using it for IS COMPARABLE.
As I said, JW's believe there is a God. Are they always wrong? If they are, we should all be atheists.
In other words, the guilt by association tack doesn't work. Force of argument is the only forum which works.
Tony
Tony,
I'm merely making a comparison as to why I don't accept certain debate tactics.
The 'heart tug' is a method used extensively by atheists and the like. I am not implying you to be an atheist. I just will not accept what I have seen to not work in prior times.
God bless you,
AV