ARCHIVE: The reality of "Hell"
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cirisme
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How? I certainly hope that you're on my side 
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cirisme
Guest
My real name isn't 2 Thess, nor is it 1, 8, or 9. Good thing too, it would take me forever to sign checks.
agape
New member
If it were you're name, don't bother getting your pen out cuz you wouldn't be around or alive to sign any checks at all.
Let's not forget these verses:
Revelation 20-15:
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
(13) The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
(14) Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
(15) If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
The White Throne Judgment clears the way for God's Everlasting Kingdom to begin. Those people whose names are in the Book of Life will be given everlasting life, while those people who are not listed there will be thrown into the lake of fire and incinerated, thus experiencing a "second death."
When verses speak of the "death" of the wicked, it is frequently this second death that is being referred to.
After the Great White Judgment, death is abolished. In the Everlasting Kingdom, there will be no more death. Praise God!
Those who partake of the second death have no hope of a resurrection for they will all be face the final death and cease to exist altogether.
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the Lord, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall VANISH away.
The wicked will be "ruined" (Psalms 73:1), "destroyed" (Psalms 73:19), and they will "perish" (John 3:16). Like the chaff when wheat is winnowed, they will be blown by the wind (Psalms 1:4), or else they will be gathered and burned up (Matthew 3:12), incinerated so completely that not even a root or branch of them is left (Malachi 4:1). They will vanish like smoke (Psalms 24:20). They will exist "no more" (Psalms 37:10), and their lamp (life) will be "snuffed out" Proverbs 24:20). The wicked will have no future hope (Proverbs 24:20).
II Peter 2:6:
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
You have not supplied any verses at all that support your theory of the wicked being punished by a conscious eternal separation from the presence of the Lord. The question is "how" are they separated, or removed from...? From viewing "all" other verses, they are dismissed by being cast into the lake of fire where they are totally destroyed and consumed and nothing remains but ashes and smoke. Thus, any kind of eternal conscious suffering is not based on Scripture but on one's own private interpretation.
As I said, cirisme, put away your pen.
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cirisme
Guest
Question...
Why would the fire be eternal, when it only needs to be there once to destroy the wicked?
Why everlasting destruction? After all, destruction does insinuate something everlasting.
All of which means seperated from God...
Unless of course you think the above means we were non-existent before we met Christ.
Also, notice in 2 Peter 2:6, it says the CITIES are ashes.
Don't you think that dying twice(especially in such an awful way) is more cruel than dying once and being seperated from God?(which is how they were on earth anyway...)
Your position seems to be extremely hypocritical at best, anti-christ at worst.
Why would the fire be eternal, when it only needs to be there once to destroy the wicked?
Why everlasting destruction? After all, destruction does insinuate something everlasting.
All of which means seperated from God...
Unless of course you think the above means we were non-existent before we met Christ.
Also, notice in 2 Peter 2:6, it says the CITIES are ashes.
Don't you think that dying twice(especially in such an awful way) is more cruel than dying once and being seperated from God?(which is how they were on earth anyway...)
Your position seems to be extremely hypocritical at best, anti-christ at worst.
Cirisme/Agape...
Cirisme/Agape...
2Thess 1:9 The word 'olethros' translated as destruction, carries the meaning of 'sudden ruin' as in being separated or at loss to all one has....
And........
....Let me address a few points…..
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Let’s think here. Why should I not be afraid to die, but be afraid of him who can make me dead?? Doesn’t make a lot of sense huh? The purpose of this passage is to demonstrate what the martyrs were to go through. Early Christians were made to sit in iron chairs heated up. I would think that having your skin boil off would be much more painful that instantaneous annihilation. So why am I to fear. Because the ‘hell’ is continuous torment.
Let’s also Read:
Matt25:46 “And these will go away in eternal ‘aionios’ punishment ‘kolasis’, but the righteous into eternal life”
In case you want to debate the meaning of ‘punishment’ ……
The authoritative Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament by William Arndt and F. Wilbur Gingrich says the meaning of kolasis in Matt 25:46 is ‘punishment’. This meaning is confirmed by Moulton and Milliagan’s The Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament, Joseph Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, etc….
“The punishment spoken of in Matt25:46 cannot be defined as a non-suffering extinction of consciousness. Indeed, if actual suffering is lacking, then so is punishment. Punishment must entail suffering. Suffering in turn entails consciousness.
Annihilation means the obliteration of existence and anything that pertains to existence, such as punishment. Annihilation avoids punishment, rather than encountering it.
Let us consider another point. The evidence that there are several degrees of annilihation. This denotes definite punishment, for one is either annihilated or one is not. There are not degrees of annihilation. Look at the following passages:
Matt10:15; 11:21-24; 16:27; Luke 12:47-48; John 15:22; Heb10:29; Rev20:11-15; 22:12 etc…. Degrees of punishment is not compatible with annihilation……
Btw is it just me or does the word eternal denote punishment in itself?
God bless,
Jeremiah L.G
Cirisme/Agape...
2Thess 1:9 The word 'olethros' translated as destruction, carries the meaning of 'sudden ruin' as in being separated or at loss to all one has....
And........
....Let me address a few points…..
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Let’s think here. Why should I not be afraid to die, but be afraid of him who can make me dead?? Doesn’t make a lot of sense huh?
The purpose of this passage is to demonstrate what the martyrs were to go through. Early Christians were made to sit in iron chairs heated up. I would think that having your skin boil off would be much more painful that instantaneous annihilation. So why am I to fear. Because the ‘hell’ is continuous torment.Let’s also Read:
Matt25:46 “And these will go away in eternal ‘aionios’ punishment ‘kolasis’, but the righteous into eternal life”
In case you want to debate the meaning of ‘punishment’ ……
The authoritative Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament by William Arndt and F. Wilbur Gingrich says the meaning of kolasis in Matt 25:46 is ‘punishment’. This meaning is confirmed by Moulton and Milliagan’s The Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament, Joseph Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, etc….
“The punishment spoken of in Matt25:46 cannot be defined as a non-suffering extinction of consciousness. Indeed, if actual suffering is lacking, then so is punishment. Punishment must entail suffering. Suffering in turn entails consciousness.
Annihilation means the obliteration of existence and anything that pertains to existence, such as punishment. Annihilation avoids punishment, rather than encountering it.
Let us consider another point. The evidence that there are several degrees of annilihation. This denotes definite punishment, for one is either annihilated or one is not. There are not degrees of annihilation. Look at the following passages:
Matt10:15; 11:21-24; 16:27; Luke 12:47-48; John 15:22; Heb10:29; Rev20:11-15; 22:12 etc…. Degrees of punishment is not compatible with annihilation……
Btw is it just me or does the word eternal denote punishment in itself?
God bless,
Jeremiah L.G
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cirisme
Guest
AV,
That's what I thought. And just in case your post wasn't enought to satisfy agape...
Note that agape had argued that the unbelievers were thrown in and destroyed...
But, wait! What's this in verse 15...
??? What's this "the" doing in here?!? This indicates that the lake of fire is the same lake of fire that Satan is thrown into in verse 10, and the same lake of fire that the beast and false prophet are thrown into in chapter 19, verse 20. This lake of fire is described as being everlasting.
That's what I thought. And just in case your post wasn't enought to satisfy agape...
Note that agape had argued that the unbelievers were thrown in and destroyed...
But, wait! What's this in verse 15...
??? What's this "the" doing in here?!? This indicates that the lake of fire is the same lake of fire that Satan is thrown into in verse 10, and the same lake of fire that the beast and false prophet are thrown into in chapter 19, verse 20. This lake of fire is described as being everlasting.
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cirisme
Guest
2 Peter 2:6!!?!?! I knew I heard that one before, you've misquoted the context, agape, numerous times, you always fail to metion verse nine...
The day of judgment being the Great White Throne Judgment above.
This is being highly dishonest, agape. You would enjoy much greater credibility if you wouldn't take verses out of context.
The day of judgment being the Great White Throne Judgment above.
This is being highly dishonest, agape. You would enjoy much greater credibility if you wouldn't take verses out of context.
agape
New member
Av,
None of the verses you have supplied show a "degree of punishment" in the lake of fire.
II Thessalonians 2:9--The unbelievers will pay justice, as paying the required penalty which is right in the judicial sense. Agelong destruction is a lifetime duration of destruction which is that which ruins and slays, disaster with death, everlasting or eternal in the sense of this destruction never changing once it begins but will end when the time of their life ends away from the face, countenance or presence of the Lord jesus Christ and away from the glory of his strength which he received from God when He raised him up from the dead.
This verse does NOT SAY they are to fear because hell is a continuous place of torture. This is totally your own private interpretation which you do so well. There's not even a clue in Matthew 10:28 that states what you say it does. It says who is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell.
Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.
Matthew 25:46:
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
They will go away into everlasting punishment means "agelong" punishment as I explained concerning II Thes. 2:9. In the future when judgment is handed out, they will be punished as the Word states, which is to be thrown into the lake of fire and to be consumed and disintergrated and to die the second and permanent death where there is no resurrection. They do NOT SUFFER for all eternity. The Scriptures DO NOT TEACH THIS. You are fallaciously mishandling the scriptures just to prove your own personal and erroneous beliefs.
Matthew 10:15--It will be more bearable (comparatively more endurable, more able to hold itself in the upright position, to put up with, more sustaining) for the earth/land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment (judgment day, the time period when judgment is pronounced) than for that city where people do not accept you neither hear your words – none of these people will be allowed by God to escape from this judgment.
Luke 12:47-48--This refers only to the initial indictment and does not correspond with the ultimate destiny of the unbeliever. The ultimate destiny is represented by the phrase, "cut them in two and shall assign to them a place with the unbelievers (hypocrites in the parallel passage at Matthew 24:51), where there is no difference in location or experience.
John 15:22--If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
What's your point??
Hebrews 10:29-- We need to remain within the context of the this chapter. The whole chapter deals with how under the old covenant there were yearly sacrifices made using animals for the forgiveness of sins. These sacrifices are no longer needed because Jesus Christ was THE SACRIFICE for sins once and for all. It is a one-time deal. To willfully sin, after knowing this and to say it still is not sufficient they put themselves again under the yoke of bondage, the law. They go back to old traditions or an Old Covenant relationship, and deny themselves the privilege of walking in that which Christ fully accomplished for them on the cross. Those who believe that Jesus Christ paid the full price and penalty for their sins are not fearful of condemnation or judgment as those who do not believe. The Christian Jews who did not believe that Christ did it all, as a result can foresee nothing but judgment… a judgment that is not forthcoming!...but nonetheless this is what they "look for."
Verse 27 says the "raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. " As it states in I Corinthians 3:10-17, the "fire" will NOT consume disobedient Christians, because they are not the enemies of God (Romans 8:37-39), but it will test the quality of their works. If a believer's work does not "pass muster," it (the work) will be burned up and the believer will suffer loss (of rewards). The believer will be saved but only "as one escaping through the flames" (I Corinthians 3:16). The "enemies of God" who will be consumed in the fire are people who were not saved, the Devil and devil spirits (Matthew 25:41-46; Revelation 20:10,15).
None of the verses you selected have anything to do with "different degrees of punishment" in the lake of fire. All those whose names are NOT written in the Book of Life will be judged accordingly which is to be thrown into the lake of fire which is to die the second death. All those whose names are written in the Book of Life will have eternal life. Those whose sins have not been remitted by Christ will pay the ultimate penalty which is death w/o any hope of a resurrection. They will die the second death and that's all there is to it. All those who are saved have eternal life and each one will receive rewards according to their good works.
None of the verses you have supplied show a "degree of punishment" in the lake of fire.
II Thessalonians 2:9--The unbelievers will pay justice, as paying the required penalty which is right in the judicial sense. Agelong destruction is a lifetime duration of destruction which is that which ruins and slays, disaster with death, everlasting or eternal in the sense of this destruction never changing once it begins but will end when the time of their life ends away from the face, countenance or presence of the Lord jesus Christ and away from the glory of his strength which he received from God when He raised him up from the dead.
Those who believe what God says, which is also what Jesus says, will live eternally at the future time even though now they may be killed by others, they might physically die; but those who refuse to believe God's Word will die permanently at a future time even though at the present time they may be the ones who kill you and they stay living physically.
This verse does NOT SAY they are to fear because hell is a continuous place of torture. This is totally your own private interpretation which you do so well. There's not even a clue in Matthew 10:28 that states what you say it does. It says who is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell.
Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.
Matthew 25:46:
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
They will go away into everlasting punishment means "agelong" punishment as I explained concerning II Thes. 2:9. In the future when judgment is handed out, they will be punished as the Word states, which is to be thrown into the lake of fire and to be consumed and disintergrated and to die the second and permanent death where there is no resurrection. They do NOT SUFFER for all eternity. The Scriptures DO NOT TEACH THIS. You are fallaciously mishandling the scriptures just to prove your own personal and erroneous beliefs.
Matthew 10:15--It will be more bearable (comparatively more endurable, more able to hold itself in the upright position, to put up with, more sustaining) for the earth/land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment (judgment day, the time period when judgment is pronounced) than for that city where people do not accept you neither hear your words – none of these people will be allowed by God to escape from this judgment.
Luke 12:47-48--This refers only to the initial indictment and does not correspond with the ultimate destiny of the unbeliever. The ultimate destiny is represented by the phrase, "cut them in two and shall assign to them a place with the unbelievers (hypocrites in the parallel passage at Matthew 24:51), where there is no difference in location or experience.
John 15:22--If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
What's your point??
Hebrews 10:29-- We need to remain within the context of the this chapter. The whole chapter deals with how under the old covenant there were yearly sacrifices made using animals for the forgiveness of sins. These sacrifices are no longer needed because Jesus Christ was THE SACRIFICE for sins once and for all. It is a one-time deal. To willfully sin, after knowing this and to say it still is not sufficient they put themselves again under the yoke of bondage, the law. They go back to old traditions or an Old Covenant relationship, and deny themselves the privilege of walking in that which Christ fully accomplished for them on the cross. Those who believe that Jesus Christ paid the full price and penalty for their sins are not fearful of condemnation or judgment as those who do not believe. The Christian Jews who did not believe that Christ did it all, as a result can foresee nothing but judgment… a judgment that is not forthcoming!...but nonetheless this is what they "look for."
Verse 27 says the "raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. " As it states in I Corinthians 3:10-17, the "fire" will NOT consume disobedient Christians, because they are not the enemies of God (Romans 8:37-39), but it will test the quality of their works. If a believer's work does not "pass muster," it (the work) will be burned up and the believer will suffer loss (of rewards). The believer will be saved but only "as one escaping through the flames" (I Corinthians 3:16). The "enemies of God" who will be consumed in the fire are people who were not saved, the Devil and devil spirits (Matthew 25:41-46; Revelation 20:10,15).
None of the verses you selected have anything to do with "different degrees of punishment" in the lake of fire. All those whose names are NOT written in the Book of Life will be judged accordingly which is to be thrown into the lake of fire which is to die the second death. All those whose names are written in the Book of Life will have eternal life. Those whose sins have not been remitted by Christ will pay the ultimate penalty which is death w/o any hope of a resurrection. They will die the second death and that's all there is to it. All those who are saved have eternal life and each one will receive rewards according to their good works.
Only if the word "destruction" follows after it, which is the second death and which is for all eternity...no more existence or life forever and ever....
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agape
New member
As I previously stated; you need to learn "how to study the Scriptures" so you don't come up with what you have all along...pure speculation and private interpretation.
What I see is someone who is so desperate to be right that all the many clear verses that explicitly show they will all be DESTROYED....VANISHED....etc., are completely and purposely ignored.
Both you and Av are REAL good at fallaciously mishandling the Word of Truth.
agape
New member
Originally posted by cirisme
2 Peter 2:6!!?!?! I knew I heard that one before, you've misquoted the context, agape, numerous times, you always fail to metion verse nine...
The more you say, cirisme, the more you show how wrong you are in rightly dividing God's Word.
II Peter 2:6-9:
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
(7) And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
(8) (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds)
(9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
The Lord knows "how" to deliver the "godly"...those who seek to walk in the righteous ways of God and to "keep" them from temptations. He also "reserves" or "keeps" the UNJUST, unto (with a view towards) the "future" day of judgment, to be "punished"...thrown into the future lake of fire, which is to die the "second death"...to exist no more.
Verse 9 confirms what I've been saying all along and it disproves what you've been saying all along, which is you taking scripture out of context, which is being highly dishonest. You would enjoy much greater credibility if you wouldn't take verses out of context.
Like I keep saying, please learn "how to study God's Word."
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cirisme
Guest
Don't put yourself down like that, it's not that bad...
I haven't ignored them. In fact, I have addressed them numerous times. You have yet to respond, but that's because your private interpretation can't stand up to context.
Perhaps we should start a fund to send you to that class. We should also set up a fund to goto the class "Learn how to stop being so hypocritical."
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cirisme
Guest
Agape, if I have come off that way to you, I apologize. Nothing I said was intended to be that way, I do hope you'll continue in our discussion. I have enjoyed it much...
ahem...
ahem...
Agape,
You failed to address the entire argument. You "explained" everlasting, but you did not explain everlasting in conjuction with 'punishment'. I have already told you what punishment must entail in order to classify as punishment....the passage states that the punishment is to be 'everlasting'...please clarify.
Also...." none of these people will be allowed by God to escape from this judgment. "....this has nothing to do with 'destruction'..
Also...Dan12:2 "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the eaerth will awake: some to everlastign life, others to shame and everlastign contempt." Agape how can someone experience 'contempt' when they are merely unconscious? O2 tried to explain this away in stating that those in heaven will know contempt for the dead, or something along those lines...however, there will be no 'contempt' in heaven. Therefore what could this mean?
Also....Why is it that you take something symbolic such as "calfs trampling the ashes..." as literal and something symbolic such as "eternal torment" as figurative??...Just asking..
God bless you agape,
Jeremiah L.G.
ahem...
Agape,
You failed to address the entire argument. You "explained" everlasting, but you did not explain everlasting in conjuction with 'punishment'. I have already told you what punishment must entail in order to classify as punishment....the passage states that the punishment is to be 'everlasting'...please clarify.
Also...." none of these people will be allowed by God to escape from this judgment. "....this has nothing to do with 'destruction'..
Also...Dan12:2 "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the eaerth will awake: some to everlastign life, others to shame and everlastign contempt." Agape how can someone experience 'contempt' when they are merely unconscious? O2 tried to explain this away in stating that those in heaven will know contempt for the dead, or something along those lines...however, there will be no 'contempt' in heaven. Therefore what could this mean?
Also....Why is it that you take something symbolic such as "calfs trampling the ashes..." as literal and something symbolic such as "eternal torment" as figurative??
...Just asking..God bless you agape,
Jeremiah L.G.
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cirisme
Guest
Also note that "vanished" does not mean "destroyed". Ie, Elzabeth Smart, the girl that was kidnapped in Salt Lake City, vanished. We know HOW she vanished(kidnapped) but they don't know where he is... so vanished might be an appropriate term.(since we know HOW it happened kidnapped would also work, but that's irrelevant ) The thing is, agape has been arguing that we(AV and I) are using "private interpretation". Even though the word VANISH means essentially "cut off"(which is what hell is all about) agape has repeatedly used her/his own interpretation that this must mean "wiped out completely."
) The thing is, agape has been arguing that we(AV and I) are using "private interpretation". Even though the word VANISH means essentially "cut off"(which is what hell is all about) agape has repeatedly used her/his own interpretation that this must mean "wiped out completely."
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cirisme
Guest
I forgot, what page was that on?
agape
New member
Oh Are the wicked going to be kidnapped by God? Is He going to perform a "disappearing act" so no one can find them? This is your description of hell? Talk about stretchhhhing!...and "privately interpreting" scripture. You take it way, way beyond the limits...and you've made a hell that God doesn't even know anyhing about.Originally posted by cirisme
Also note that "vanished" does not mean "destroyed". Ie, Elzabeth Smart, the girl that was kidnapped in Salt Lake City, vanished. We know HOW she vanished(kidnapped) but they don't know where he is... so vanished might be an appropriate term.(since we know HOW it happened kidnapped would also work, but that's irrelevant
The wicked will vanish all right...right into the lake of fire where they will be cut off, destroyed, put an end to, exterminated, consumed, cease to exist and "wiped out completely!"