C
cirisme
Guest
Nice straw man, agape. Mind twisting my words any further?
ARCHIVE: The reality of "Hell"
- Thread starter AVmetro
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Nice straw man, agape. Mind twisting my words any further?
C
cirisme
Guest
I agree with "cut-off", because that's what the Bible says, but the Bible does NOT say the rest of those things. Look @ who's using private interpretation now!
AV, any ideas on why people like Agape and o2 always resort to ad-hominem, hypocriticalism(if that's a word
), straw men, and private interpretationism instead of the holy word of God???
C
cirisme
Guest
[sarcasm]I would think it's a wate of time if I were you, too. I mean, really. You have surpass tons and tons of evidence, re-write scripture, come up with new names to call everybody who disagrees with you, create straw men, all the while trying to save face. That's alot of work, buddy![/sarcasm]
To date, you, agape, and ev have numerous unsubstantiated claims. You peristently misrepresent me and the word of God, and acted like a bunch of immature 5th graders. I have asked numerous times for your evidence, and all of you have so far denied. I have asked where am I wrong in my interpretation of scripture, and have these requests have gone unanswered. I would greatly appreciate a response from any of you. If, as you say, there are so many verses that back your groundless claims up, it should be very easy for you.
To date, you, agape, and ev have numerous unsubstantiated claims. You peristently misrepresent me and the word of God, and acted like a bunch of immature 5th graders. I have asked numerous times for your evidence, and all of you have so far denied. I have asked where am I wrong in my interpretation of scripture, and have these requests have gone unanswered. I would greatly appreciate a response from any of you. If, as you say, there are so many verses that back your groundless claims up, it should be very easy for you.
C
cirisme
Guest
Agpe said on the previous page...
I could have said the same of you. Notice, dear readers, that now both agape and o2 are avoiding the issues I raised. To date, neither has answered me. Care to take a crack at it, o2? Or would you rather avoid the subject altogether and go underground?
I could have said the same of you. Notice, dear readers, that now both agape and o2 are avoiding the issues I raised. To date, neither has answered me. Care to take a crack at it, o2? Or would you rather avoid the subject altogether and go underground?
o2bwise
New member
Reiteration
Reiteration
Hi cirisme,
I'll repeat myself. I discern your etiquette to be so lousy so often that I have chosen not to discuss theology with you.
I know you would like to believe that I prefer not to discuss with you because of the (purported) incredible veracity of your argument. I also know that my stating this is untrue would fall on deaf ears.
Like I wrote before, if it makes you feel better to believe that I do not dialogue because I think you pose incredible arguments - well, go for it.
That's cool.
Take Care...
Tony
Reiteration
Hi cirisme,
I'll repeat myself. I discern your etiquette to be so lousy so often that I have chosen not to discuss theology with you.
I know you would like to believe that I prefer not to discuss with you because of the (purported) incredible veracity of your argument. I also know that my stating this is untrue would fall on deaf ears.
Like I wrote before, if it makes you feel better to believe that I do not dialogue because I think you pose incredible arguments - well, go for it.
That's cool.
Take Care...
Tony
C
cirisme
Guest
I figured as much...
Agape, you there?
Agape, you there?
agape
New member
Av and cirisme
Revelation 20-15:
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
(13) The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
(14) Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
(15) If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
The White Throne Judgment clears the way for God's Everlasting Kingdom to begin. Those people whose names are in the Book of Life will be given everlasting life, while those people who are not listed there will be thrown into the lake of fire and incinerated, thus experiencing a "second death."
When verses speak of the "death" of the wicked, it is frequently this second death that is being referred to.
After the Great White Judgment, death is abolished. In the Everlasting Kingdom, there will be no more death. Praise God!
Those who partake of the second death have no hope of a resurrection for they will all be face the final death and cease to exist altogether.
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the Lord, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall VANISH away.
The wicked will be "ruined" (Psalms 73:1), "destroyed" (Psalms 73:19), and they will "perish" (John 3:16). Like the chaff when wheat is winnowed, they will be blown by the wind (Psalms 1:4), or else they will be gathered and burned up (Matthew 3:12), incinerated so completely that not even a root or branch of them is left (Malachi 4:1). They will vanish like smoke (Psalms 24:20). They will exist "no more" (Psalms 37:10), and their lamp (life) will be "snuffed out" Proverbs 24:20). The wicked will have no future hope (Proverbs 24:20).
Where's the "eternal consciousness?" Seems like that vanished into smoke and is gone forever too.
I strongly suggest that both of you leave out your private interpretations and learn how to study the Scriptures till you finally get it right!
Revelation 20-15:
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
(13) The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
(14) Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
(15) If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
The White Throne Judgment clears the way for God's Everlasting Kingdom to begin. Those people whose names are in the Book of Life will be given everlasting life, while those people who are not listed there will be thrown into the lake of fire and incinerated, thus experiencing a "second death."
When verses speak of the "death" of the wicked, it is frequently this second death that is being referred to.
After the Great White Judgment, death is abolished. In the Everlasting Kingdom, there will be no more death. Praise God!
Those who partake of the second death have no hope of a resurrection for they will all be face the final death and cease to exist altogether.
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the Lord, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall VANISH away.
The wicked will be "ruined" (Psalms 73:1), "destroyed" (Psalms 73:19), and they will "perish" (John 3:16). Like the chaff when wheat is winnowed, they will be blown by the wind (Psalms 1:4), or else they will be gathered and burned up (Matthew 3:12), incinerated so completely that not even a root or branch of them is left (Malachi 4:1). They will vanish like smoke (Psalms 24:20). They will exist "no more" (Psalms 37:10), and their lamp (life) will be "snuffed out" Proverbs 24:20). The wicked will have no future hope (Proverbs 24:20).
Where's the "eternal consciousness?" Seems like that vanished into smoke and is gone forever too.
I strongly suggest that both of you leave out your private interpretations and learn how to study the Scriptures till you finally get it right!
o2bwise
New member
I'm Here
I'm Here
Hi AV,
Tough week.
What specifically would you like me to respond to?
It seemed to me your main support for your position is wholly dependant on mistakenly asserting that the Greek AION (or a form of the same) must mean of eternal time duration. Philemon contains a verse that suggests otherwise and the LXX is loaded with the same.
Can you show me support for your position that is something other than your mis-use of those verses that contain aion (or a form of aion)?
God Bless Ya,
Tony (o2)
I'm Here
Hi AV,
Tough week.
What specifically would you like me to respond to?
It seemed to me your main support for your position is wholly dependant on mistakenly asserting that the Greek AION (or a form of the same) must mean of eternal time duration. Philemon contains a verse that suggests otherwise and the LXX is loaded with the same.
Can you show me support for your position that is something other than your mis-use of those verses that contain aion (or a form of aion)?
God Bless Ya,
Tony (o2)
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C
cirisme
Guest
Question...
quote:
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In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. -Jude 7
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Why would the fire be eternal, when it only needs to be there once to destroy the wicked?
quote:
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He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power -2 Thess. 1:8,9
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Why everlasting destruction? After all, destruction does insinuate something everlasting.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The wicked will be "ruined" (Psalms 73:1), "destroyed" (Psalms 73:19), and they will "perish" (John 3:16). Like the chaff when wheat is winnowed, they will be blown by the wind (Psalms 1:4), or else they will be gathered and burned up (Matthew 3:12), incinerated so completely that not even a root or branch of them is left (Malachi 4:1). They will vanish like smoke (Psalms 24:20). They will exist "no more" (Psalms 37:10), and their lamp (life) will be "snuffed out" Proverbs 24:20). The wicked will have no future hope (Proverbs 24:20).
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All of which means seperated from God...
quote:
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As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, -Ephesians 2:1
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quote:
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When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins -Colossians 2:13
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Unless of course you think the above means we were non-existent before we met Christ.
Also, notice in 2 Peter 2:6, it says the CITIES are ashes.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The White Throne Judgment clears the way for God's Everlasting Kingdom to begin. Those people whose names are in the Book of Life will be given everlasting life, while those people who are not listed there will be thrown into the lake of fire and incinerated, thus experiencing a "second death."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't you think that dying twice(especially in such an awful way) is more cruel than dying once and being seperated from God?(which is how they were on earth anyway...)
Your position seems to be extremely hypocritical at best, anti-christ at worst.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. -Jude 7
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why would the fire be eternal, when it only needs to be there once to destroy the wicked?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power -2 Thess. 1:8,9
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why everlasting destruction? After all, destruction does insinuate something everlasting.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The wicked will be "ruined" (Psalms 73:1), "destroyed" (Psalms 73:19), and they will "perish" (John 3:16). Like the chaff when wheat is winnowed, they will be blown by the wind (Psalms 1:4), or else they will be gathered and burned up (Matthew 3:12), incinerated so completely that not even a root or branch of them is left (Malachi 4:1). They will vanish like smoke (Psalms 24:20). They will exist "no more" (Psalms 37:10), and their lamp (life) will be "snuffed out" Proverbs 24:20). The wicked will have no future hope (Proverbs 24:20).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All of which means seperated from God...
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, -Ephesians 2:1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins -Colossians 2:13
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unless of course you think the above means we were non-existent before we met Christ.
Also, notice in 2 Peter 2:6, it says the CITIES are ashes.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The White Throne Judgment clears the way for God's Everlasting Kingdom to begin. Those people whose names are in the Book of Life will be given everlasting life, while those people who are not listed there will be thrown into the lake of fire and incinerated, thus experiencing a "second death."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't you think that dying twice(especially in such an awful way) is more cruel than dying once and being seperated from God?(which is how they were on earth anyway...)
Your position seems to be extremely hypocritical at best, anti-christ at worst.
C
cirisme
Guest
o2, your arguement about aion falls apart. In Revelation, it is translated to mean "eternity" or "for ever and ever" every single time!
There are fourteen verses that use "aion" in Revelation:
Re 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Re 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for ever more, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Re 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
Re 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Re 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Re 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
Re 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Re 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Re 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Re 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his im age, and whoso ever receiveth the mark of his name.
Re 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Re 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Re 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
There are fourteen verses that use "aion" in Revelation:
Re 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Re 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for ever more, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Re 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
Re 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Re 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Re 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
Re 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Re 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Re 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Re 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his im age, and whoso ever receiveth the mark of his name.
Re 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Re 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Re 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
C
cirisme
Guest
Also note that the word AION is used in the KJV 128 times and is translated as ever 71 times
world 38 times
never 6 times
evermore 4 times
age 2 times
eternal 2 times
and misc. 5 times
The definition of AION is:
(1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
(2) the worlds, universe
(3) period of time, age
Note that (3) is only used twice in the Bible.
world 38 times
never 6 times
evermore 4 times
age 2 times
eternal 2 times
and misc. 5 times
The definition of AION is:
(1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
(2) the worlds, universe
(3) period of time, age
Note that (3) is only used twice in the Bible.
C
cirisme
Guest
Av,
concerning Daniel 12:2, it does mean everlasting. The Hebrew word for ever is 'owlam and is used only in four verses in Daniel:
Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in ever lasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Da 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to ever lasting life, and some to shame and ever lasting contempt.
Da 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Da 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
The definition for the word is this:
(1)long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
(a)ancient time, long time (of past)
(b)(of future)
(1) for ever, always
(2)continuous existence, perpetual
(3)everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity
It's used in the KJV a total of 439 times and is translated as: ever 272, everlasting 63, old 22, perpetual 22, evermore 15, never 13, time 6, ancient 5, world 4, always 3, alway 2, long 2, more 2, never 2, miscellaneous 6.
concerning Daniel 12:2, it does mean everlasting. The Hebrew word for ever is 'owlam and is used only in four verses in Daniel:
Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in ever lasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Da 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to ever lasting life, and some to shame and ever lasting contempt.
Da 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Da 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
The definition for the word is this:
(1)long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
(a)ancient time, long time (of past)
(b)(of future)
(1) for ever, always
(2)continuous existence, perpetual
(3)everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity
It's used in the KJV a total of 439 times and is translated as: ever 272, everlasting 63, old 22, perpetual 22, evermore 15, never 13, time 6, ancient 5, world 4, always 3, alway 2, long 2, more 2, never 2, miscellaneous 6.
o2bwise
New member
Exodus 21:6
Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
LXX uses aion in this passage. Will the slave serve the master for eternal time duration?
No.
Conclusion: aion need not mean for ever. No matter how many times it is translated thus.
Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
LXX uses aion in this passage. Will the slave serve the master for eternal time duration?
No.
Conclusion: aion need not mean for ever. No matter how many times it is translated thus.
C
cirisme
Guest
Aion means both "for ever" and a finite time period! What part of that do you not understand?
C
cirisme
Guest
Also, how long does the servant serve the master in Exodus 21:6? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? What time period does the servant serve?
Agape, Cirisme, O2
Agape, Cirisme, O2
Whew! I love to come to this thread to actually take a break and cool off!
Cirisme,
Good work! Keep it up....
O2,
I think Cirisme handled that one pretty good. Seeing a word lexically is important. I'll get back on it...
Agape,
This verse is interesting in that 'death' is destroyed. Note how if death is destroyed then there is no death for all. Think about it. We are ALL raised immortal. But only those who go to heaven will not suffer the fire. I got more on this later....
God bless,
AV
Agape, Cirisme, O2
Whew! I love to come to this thread to actually take a break and cool off!
Cirisme,
Good work! Keep it up....
O2,
I think Cirisme handled that one pretty good. Seeing a word lexically is important. I'll get back on it...
Agape,
This verse is interesting in that 'death' is destroyed. Note how if death is destroyed then there is no death for all. Think about it. We are ALL raised immortal. But only those who go to heaven will not suffer the fire.
I got more on this later....God bless,
AV