ARCHIVE: The reality of "Hell"

[agape]

Originally posted by cirisme
Agape,

note that in John 3:16, the word for perish is Apollumi and its definition is:
(1)render useless
(2)to kill
(3)to declare that one must be put to death
(4)to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell

definition is:
(1)render useless When one is dead he/she is definitely useless

(2)to kill: definitely dead

(3)to declare that one must be put to death: What more needs to be said?

(4)to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell: Pure private interpretation.

3 out of 4...not bad.

 

[o2bwise]

cirisme,

Care to explain why this verse is relevant?

Are you being sarcastic?

Psalm 6:5
5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?


The relevence of the text is dependent on a belief that I think the vast majority of people have. Which is that lack of conscious existence is synonymous with lack of life.

Perhaps you are an exception. I thought you believed in eternal conscious torment. Assuming you do not, do you believe in eternal subconscious torment? Eternal unconscious torment?

Both are oxymorons. Where torment is outside of consciousness, torment actually IS NOT.


One other quick response. You gave a definition for perish. Don't you see the possibility that CIRCULARITY is going on? In other words, it is quite possible that many people UNDERSTOOD that the lost suffer eternal torment. Thus, the word PERISH could come to have a meaning consistent with that understanding.

This is no evidence of the truth, whatever it may be. It is only evidence of the eventual definition for a word.

You could do wonders with the word "gay." Take a book written in the 18th century, take a dictionary written today and render gay with a modern definition.

It's a rough analogy.

It's putting the cart before the horse.

Tony

 

[cirisme]

Perhaps you are an exception. I thought you believed in eternal conscious torment. Assuming you do not, do you believe in eternal subconscious torment? Eternal unconscious torment?

None of the above. I don't believe in torment, at all.

Both are oxymorons. Where torment is outside of consciousness, torment actually IS NOT.

True. Of course, I haven't been arguing about whether there will be torment or not, I'm arguing about how long hell will last. With words like aionios, it's quite obvious that it will be eternal seperation from God. Any other verse that *might* have a seperate meaning is pointless because I have given you several verses that have no other meaning.

 

[o2bwise]

aion : aionios

aion : aionios

cirisme,

aionios does not mean eternal. It's a form of aion, which we have agreed need not mean for ever. It's simply like switching from an adjective form to an adverb form. That doesn't change the basic definition.

 

[cirisme]

Perhaps you'd care to give us an alternate definition, I've looked a many different scholarly definitions of the word and they all say it means eternal and only eternal. Plus, you haven't addressed the verses/arguements I've given you.

 

[AVmetro]

Agape,O2,Cirisme...

Agape,O2,Cirisme...

Basically what I notice is a "minus out" of scriptures which state 'eternal punishment' in contrast to those which state 'eternal annihalation'....both sides insist the others to be 'symbolic'. Therefore it is necessary to determine from the scriptures regarding God's natures and requirments what is to be done with the damned.....something I have already long ago addressed to which no one responded.......

 

[AVmetro]

That would be...

That would be...

....***Page 6***....

Also....I don't believe whoever I directed this to answered me back way back when....

1.) Must sin be punished? Consider the fact that God is a PERFECTLY JUST GOD. Let's take satan for example; a being whom has no remorse for his actions. Must his sin be punished?

2.) Can the blood of animals (i.e. sacrifice) take away sin?

3.) Can the death of the sinner take away the sin?

4.) Can good works take away sin?

5.) Do you agree that ONLY the blood of Jesus can take away sin?

6.) Do you agree, according to the above, that when a man dies once, without Christ that his sin remains unpunished?

Additionally .....Habakkuk1:13 "O Rock,.....Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong."

For ya'll on death.....and the annihilation thereof.....

Rev9:4 "They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

Let us bear in mind Daniels three friends who were thrown into the fire, yet not consumed......imagine that with everyone raised IMMORTAL, yet without God....Hab1:13...

God bless you o2,
God bless you Agape,
God bless you Cirisme,

Jeremiah L.G.

 

[AVmetro]

*B*

 

[AVmetro]

*U*

 

[AVmetro]

*M*

 

[AVmetro]

*P*

 

[agape]

Re: That would be...

Re: That would be...

Originally posted by AVmetro
Let us bear in mind Daniels three friends who were thrown into the fire, yet not consumed......imagine that with everyone raised IMMORTAL, yet without God....Hab1:13...

Av, it's important to note that Daniel's three companions were NOT thrown into THE LAKE OF FIRE.

Also, not ALL will have immortality. Immortality is for the born-again believers and for all those whose names are written in the Book of LIFE.

 

[o2bwise]

Plus, you haven't addressed the verses/arguements I've given you.

Likewise, cirisme.

Let's go R-E-A-L S-L-O-W.

Give me two verses and one argument.

 

[cirisme]

agape,

Also, not ALL will have immortality. Immortality is for the born-again believers and for all those whose names are written in the Book of LIFE.

You wouldn't happen to have scripture for that?

"having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." -Acts 24:15

o2,

Likewise, cirisme.

Let's go R-E-A-L S-L-O-W.

Give me two verses and one argument.

Already have. Now would you give me the same courtesy?

Av,

1.) Must sin be punished? Consider the fact that God is a PERFECTLY JUST GOD. Let's take satan for example; a being whom has no remorse for his actions. Must his sin be punished?

2.) Can the blood of animals (i.e. sacrifice) take away sin?

3.) Can the death of the sinner take away the sin?

4.) Can good works take away sin?

5.) Do you agree that ONLY the blood of Jesus can take away sin?

6.) Do you agree, according to the above, that when a man dies once, without Christ that his sin remains unpunished?

1. Yes
2. No
3. No
4. No
5. Yes
6. Usually No

God bless agape, o2, and av.

 

[AVmetro]

..........

..........

Actually Cirisme, those weren't exactly for you.. oh well....Let's get to discussing, all a ya'll!!....

 

[o2bwise]

Trying To Continue On...

Trying To Continue On...

cirisme,

Perhaps you'd care to give us an alternate definition, I've looked a many different scholarly definitions of the word and they all say it means eternal and only eternal. Plus, you haven't addressed the verses/arguements I've given you.

As I said, aionios is simply a different form of aion. It appears aion is an adverb, such as

He will live forever.


Aionios appears to be an adjective.

He will have eternal life.


The following is how I deduce aionios does not necessarily mean eternal time.

1. The LXX renders aion for occurrences of finite time duration.

2. aionios is the adjective form of the same word.


I don't think there is a language in the world that renders a different meaning to a word on the basis of its different form, i.e. because it used to describe a verb instead of a noun.


Cirisme, I am curious. You have used verses like the following to support the idea that the lost live forever.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

But, you have also said:

Straw man. I never said that I believe in eternal torture.

How is this compatible?


You have also said the following in response to this:
No consciousness during death.

Interesting to note that I never said there was going to be. I haven't made up my mind on that right now. Care to explain why this verse is relevant?

What is the “state” of the lost, should there be no consciousness? To me, having conscious existence is synonymous with having life.


Finally, I have asked you to specify (say) two verses in support of your position. You post 10.59 posts/day. Can you post one extra one? Or simply refer me to such a post (giving date and time of post)?

God Bless,

Tony (o2)

 

[o2bwise]

fyi

fyi

cirisme,

Just an fyi.

Your response to my post of 7-1, 2:20 AM, did nothing for me. I saw nothing in the post that I felt took away from the obvious meaning of the passages I offered (lost are destroyed, anihilated, perish, are no more) and I saw nothing that seemed to support eternal perpetuation of life.

Just being candid.

 

[agape]

cirisme,

Agape>>Also, not ALL will have immortality. Immortality is for the born-again believers and for all those whose names are written in the Book of LIFE.

You wouldn't happen to have scripture for that?

Well now cirisme is going to invent some more scriptures to make his theory fit. LOL.

Since you are the who FIRST stated that ALL will be raise IMMORTAL, THEN YOU PROVE IT.

YOU PROVE from the Scriptures that GOD SAID ALL WILL BE RAISED IMMORTAL. YOU DO THE WORK.

Btw, according to the small part of scripture you have supplied; WHERE'S IMMORTALITY even mentioned???

 

[cirisme]

Agape,
Let me try to understand what you're saying here. You say that all be raised up(Acts 24:15), but not immortaly? What exactly would the point be for God to raise up someone just to the next minute destroy?

 

[cirisme]

I saw nothing in the post that I felt took away from the obvious meaning of the passages I offered

Obvious meaning!!?!?!?! I certainly hope that you're joking. All that was there was a verse that clearly stated that one in hell would not praise God(which should be obvious) and lots of private interpretation.