ARCHIVE: The reality of "Hell"

[o2bwise]

Aion means both "for ever" and a finite time period! What part of that do you not understand?

On this point, I think it is YOU who does not understand!

I AM THE ONE WHO HAS ALWAYS MAINTAINED THAT AION CONTAINS THIS LATITUDE.

What YOU don't seem to understand is that you offer no conclusive evidence that aion MUST be rendered as "for ever" when talking about the torment of the lost. The only so called evidence you offered is one of TRANSLATION and that is NO evidence at all.

If I realize that LANGUAGE offers more flexibility, I must allow the possibility for that flexibility.

 

[cirisme]

If aion means a certain peroid of time(and for the sake of arguement, let's assume that's all it means), I have two questions for you: (A) How long does the servant serve in Exodus 21:6 and (B) How long will people "serve their time" in hell?

 

[cirisme]

My verse by verse rebuttal to agape's verses...

The wicked will be "ruined" (Psalms 73:1), "destroyed" (Psalms 73:19), and they will "perish" (John 3:16). Like the chaff when wheat is winnowed, they will be blown by the wind (Psalms 1:4), or else they will be gathered and burned up (Matthew 3:12), incinerated so completely that not even a root or branch of them is left (Malachi 4:1). They will vanish like smoke (Psalms 24:20). They will exist "no more" (Psalms 37:10), and their lamp (life) will be "snuffed out" Proverbs 24:20). The wicked will have no future hope (Proverbs 24:20).

"Surely God is good to Israel, To those who are pure in heart." -Psalm 73:1(agape:The wicked will be "ruined")

Did I miss something here?

"How they are suddenly destroyed! They are completely swept away with terrors."-Psalms 73:19

And this is expanded upon in 2nd Thessalonians...

"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power" -2 Thess. 1:8,9

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16 (agape:and they will "perish")

Perish from what? The source of life, Jesus Christ?

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. -John 14:6

You bet:

"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power" -2 Thess. 1:8,9

The ungodly [are] not so: but [are] like the chaff which the wind driveth away. -Psalms 1:4(agape: Like the chaff when wheat is winnowed, they will be blown by the wind)

Care explaining this one?

Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. -Matthew 3:12 (agaper else they will be gathered and burned up)

How bout this one?

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. -Malichi 4:1 (agape: incinerated so completely that not even a root or branch of them is left)

Perhaps that arguement would be more effective if people had roots and branches.

Agape: They will vanish like smoke (Psalms 24:20)

Sorry, but Psalms chapter 24 only goes to verse 10.

For yet a little while, and the wicked will be no more. Yes, though you look for his place, he isn't there. -Psalms 37:10(agape:They will exist "no more")

Care showing us your private interpretation of what "no more" means? No more what? The context makes it clear that it will be no more life of God:

For evildoers shall be cut off, But those who wait for Yahweh shall inherit the land. -37:9

cut off from God...

"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power" -2 Thess. 1:8,9

cut off from the life He is...

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. -John 14:6

Since the final two quotes you have for me is the same verse, I'll address it all at once:

agape:and their lamp (life) will be "snuffed out" Proverbs 24:20). The wicked will have no future hope (Proverbs 24:20).

For there will be no reward to the evil man; And the lamp of the wicked shall be snuffed out. -Proverbs 24:20

You have previously stated that there will be no resurrection from hell, of which you are correct. There will be no hope/reward for those in hell. Regarding their life being snuffed out, see the response for Psalms 37:10.

I strongly suggest that both you and o2 leave out your private interpretations and learn how to study the Scriptures till you finally get it right!

 

[cirisme]

AV,

Cirisme,

Good work! Keep it up....

Thank you.

 

[AVmetro]

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*skiddly diddly... bump*.....

 

[cirisme]

AV,

This verse is interesting in that 'death' is destroyed. Note how if death is destroyed then there is no death for all. Think about it. We are ALL raised immortal. But only those who go to heaven will not suffer the fire. I got more on this later....

That's a very good point!

 

[cirisme]

o2,

Regarding aion, what exactly makes you think that Exodus 21:6 does not refer to a neverending time

period? I can't answer for you, but there I two reasons I believe this time is finite:
(A)For ever in such a case ususally means until one party is dead. To elaborate on this, death would be the end

of time(not strictly speaking, but since we're speaking of relative humans, this will suffice). For ever usually

refers to the end of time, thus, from man's perspective, death is the end of time.
(B) 'Owlam, the Hebrew word in this passage, has the ability to mean a finite time.

However, applying this logic to Revelation 20:10 does not fit. (B) may work, but (A) simply can't without circular

reasoning. The only reason we should believe any passage with 'owlam or aion means something finite is

with both conditions A and B. And that requires CONTEXT.

 

[o2bwise]

cirisme,

I will glean from Point A:

(A)For ever in such a case usually means until one party is dead. To elaborate on this, death would be the end of time(not strictly speaking, but since we're speaking of relative humans, this will suffice). For ever usually refers to the end of time, thus, from man's perspective, death is the end of time.

In other words, "in such a case" for ever means until one party is dead. And "thus, from man's perspective," for ever means at death.


Reveleation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


What in the context disallows for ever meaning until these parties are dead? Or, to put another way, what in the context is so compelling that it clearly requires infinite time?

 

[o2bwise]

This verse is interesting in that 'death' is destroyed. Note how if death is destroyed then there is no death for all. Think about it. We are ALL raised immortal.

Unless, of course, this fits in a certain time sequence. That being that the lost are already dead, at which point death "dies," i.e. is henceforth not an occurrence.

 

[cirisme]

In other words, "in such a case" for ever means until one party is dead. And "thus, from man's perspective," for ever means at death.

Correct.

What in the context disallows for ever meaning until these parties are dead?

The fact that it is impossible because death is done away with before any human is thrown into the lake of fire!

Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire. -Revelation 20:14-15

Or, to put another way, what in the context is so compelling that it clearly requires infinite time?

The above To put it another way, aside from aion, what is the most compelling reason you have that this is not infinite time?

 

[cirisme]

o2,

Unless, of course, this fits in a certain time sequence. That being that the lost are already dead, at which point death "dies," i.e. is henceforth not an occurrence.

Could you please elaborate?

 

[o2bwise]

What I Find Compelling

What I Find Compelling

cirisme,

Yes, I see your point. But, given the tenor of the entirety of scripture AND given the extreme symbolism of Revelation, I don't think it is substantial enough.

It is possible (even likely) that the first death is inferred. It specifically mentions hades which is literally the grave. ALL persons who go to hades are resurrected - no exceptions.

It is compatible that this is the death referred to that is cast into the fire. Not the second death (from which there is no resurrection), but the death that results in hades.

Revelation is so symbolic that a literal rendering is problematic. For example, just what exactly is the beast that is cast into the fire? What does it mean for the beast to be cast there? And who is the false prophet that was cast there? Not a human? (You require it cannot be a person for that must come after.) And what does it mean for death and hades to be cast into this fire? Will the lost abide in this fire and see death and hades there as well (along with the beast and the false prophet)? What does this literally mean?

The above To put it another way, aside from aion, what is the most compelling reason you have that this is not infinite time?

What is compelling is the whole of scripture, the preponderance of evidence.

If one looks at all the evidence and sees that all (or at least most) aion texts are neutral (not preferring your position or mine), the texts that seem to support my position far outnumber those that seem to support your own.

What is compelling is application of the actual means by which truth is extracted from scripture in the first place.

David (not just his flesh) is in the grave. Those in the grave no longer praise God. They have no thought. The lost are described as perishing, as destroyed, as ashes under our feet. Only God has immortality. Jesus came that we might have LIFE and have it more abundantly.

These texts are everywhere. Their most apparent meaning is lost (by you) because of preconception. The vast number of them is not appreciated and the strength implicit in that number is not realized.

Tony (o2)

 

[cirisme]

What is compelling is the whole of scripture, the preponderance of evidence.

Okay, let's have some of that then...

the texts that seem to support my position far outnumber those that seem to support your own.

That's contradictory, you just that most texts with aion are neutral.

David (not just his flesh) is in the grave. Those in the grave no longer praise God. They have no thought. The lost are described as perishing, as destroyed, as ashes under our feet. Only God has immortality. Jesus came that we might have LIFE and have it more abundantly.

Are you isinuating that there will be no heaven?

These texts are everywhere. Their most apparent meaning is lost (by you) because of preconception. The vast number of them is not appreciated and the strength implicit in that number is not realized.

Correct, you haven't provided any that support your position. I suggest you provide some texts where Jesus(or anyone else) says something to effect of "After ten years in hell, you will surely be destroyed!"

 

[cirisme]

o2, work can even work without Revelation...

Jude 7:
Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having, in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

Note that the word for eternal here is the Greek word Aionios, which has only the definition of eternal:
(1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
(2)without beginning
(3)without end, never to cease, everlasting

Care explaining this one?

 

[cirisme]

Also note that this word is used in John 17 times, and every single time, it is referring to eternal life, that is the life of the believer in heaven.

 

[cirisme]

Also,

The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? -Isaiah 33:14 Note that "everlasting" here is 'owlam, which we covered before.

Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. -Matthew 18:8, the word for everlasting here is aionios, which I've already covered.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. -Matthew 25:46, note that both everlasting and eternal here are aionios.

...of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. -Hebrews 6:2
Eternal here, as you might have guess, is aionios, too.

 

[cirisme]

Agape,

note that in John 3:16, the word for perish is Apollumi and its definition is:
(1)render useless
(2)to kill
(3)to declare that one must be put to death
(4)to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell

 

[o2bwise]

"Some" Support (There Is Much More)

"Some" Support (There Is Much More)

Hello cirisme,

Very busy, but...

Okay, let's have some of that then...

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Question: Those that believe have what, cirisme?

Answer: Everlasting life.

What is it that those who do not believe do not have? Everlasting life. They do not have life.


Psalm 6:5
5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?

No consciousness during death.


Psalm 9:5-7
5 You have rebuked the nations, You have destroyed the wicked; You have blotted out their name forever and ever. 6 O enemy, destructions are finished forever! And you have destroyed cities; Even their memory has perished. 7 But the Lord shall endure forever; He has prepared His throne for judgment.

The wicked are not around, even their memory has perished.


Psalm 146:4
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

The very day a person dies, his thoughts perish.


Psalm 37:10,20
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

The wicked SHALL NOT BE.

As the fat of lambs, THEY SHALL CONSUME, INTO SMOKE THEY SHALL CONSUME AWAY.


You wrote:

Correct, you haven't provided any that support your position. I suggest you provide some texts where Jesus(or anyone else) says something to effect of "After ten years in hell, you will surely be destroyed!"

Unneccessary. If something is said to be consumed away, if it is said to NOT BE, it is obvious that any torture must be finite in time in order for the characteristic to take place.

To use an analogy, suppose someone said they were going to burn grass until it NO LONGER IS. Maintaining that the grass will burn forever unless someone says it will be burnt for "10 minutes and THEN it shall not be" is just plain silly.

Tony

 

[cirisme]

What is it that those who do not believe do not have? Everlasting life. They do not have life.

They perish, just like what Jesus said.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."-John 3:16

I told agape this, and I'll tell you: the Greek word for perish in this passage is Apollumi and it's definition is:
(1)render useless
(2)to kill
(3)to declare that one must be put to death
(4)to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell

Psalm 6:5
5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?

No consciousness during death.

Interesting to note that I never said there was going to be. I haven't made up my mind on that right now. Care to explain why this verse is relevant?

The wicked are not around, even their memory has perished.

Let's step back and analyze this passage word by word in Greek.

9:5 - Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

The word for destroyed here is abad and it's definitions are:

(1) perish, vanish, go astray, be destroyed
(a)(Qal)
(1)perish, die, be exterminated
(2)perish, vanish (fig.)
(3)be lost, strayed
(b)(Piel)
(1)to destroy, kill, cause to perish, to give up (as lost), exterminate
(2)to blot out, do away with, cause to vanish, (fig.)
(3)cause to stray, lose
(c)(Hiphil)
(1)to destroy, put to death 1c
(2)of divine judgment
(3)object name of kings (fig.)

Now which definition would you rather use for this passage?

9:6a - destructions are come to a perpetual end:

Destructions here is chorbah. It means "a place laid waste, ruin, waste, desolation."
Perpetual here is Netsach. It means:

(1)eminence, perpetuity, strength, victory, enduring, everlastingness
(a)eminence
(b)enduring of life
(c)endurance in time, perpetual, continual, unto the end
(d)everlastingness, ever

So, we have an everlasting ending to the destruction of the Psalmist's enemies. Your point?

9:6b - "and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them."

The word for memorial here is Zeker. It means:
(1)memorial, remembrance
(a)remembrance, memory
(b)memorial

What exactly is your point in the above?

The very day a person dies, his thoughts perish.

I don't follow how this proves a person is completely destroyed...

The wicked SHALL NOT BE.

As the fat of lambs, THEY SHALL CONSUME, INTO SMOKE THEY SHALL CONSUME AWAY.

Hmmm, seems I already addressed Psalms 37 with agape on page 15. But, since I like you, I'll reprint it:

Care showing us your private interpretation of what "no more" means? No more what? The context makes it clear that it will be no more life of God:

For evildoers shall be cut off, But those who wait for Yahweh shall inherit the land. -37:9

cut off from God [and Jesus]...

"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power" -2 Thess. 1:8,9

cut off from the life He is...

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. -John 14:6

To use an analogy, suppose someone said they were going to burn grass until it NO LONGER IS. Maintaining that the grass will burn forever unless someone says it will be burnt for "10 minutes and THEN it shall not be" is just plain silly.

Straw man. I never said that I believe in eternal torture. I believe that the fire used in any verse that describes hell is figurative!

Now care tackling Aionios?

 

[cirisme]

Ooops, looks like I didn't reprint my entire response to agape, here's the rest:

You bet!

"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power" -2 Thess. 1:8,9