ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.

[godrulz]

How could he have sin if there is no law to convict him of sin? The law is dead. Jesus died for all sin. Was Jeffery Dahmer left out?
Jeffery Dahmer was born into the death of all humans, just like you and me. Jesus came to give life from the dead. Salvation is life from the dead.

Dementia setting in? Screw fall out? Your theology is straying...reel it in, buddy.

 

[Sozo]

God is not blind nor is He mocked. If He is omniscient and omnipresent, even in Open Theism terms, He sees and knows all.

God does not forget sins that you, the devil, your buddy, etc. sees and remembers. The idea of God 'forgetting' sin is that He choses to not bring it up again based on a substitute for the penalty of sin. In justification, He legally treats us just as if we never sinned, based on the work of the cross that satisfies love and holiness. Sanctification works actual righteousness into our lives, not just forensic or legal justification.

To think that God could see King David's sin, but could not see the sins of NT believers is dispensationalism gone awry undermining explicit revelation of who God is and His ways.

Anyone, that just read this crap from godless, still think he is in Christ?

If you do, then perhaps you should examine yourself to see if you are in the faith.

He has never come to Christ, only to a religious cult he calls "christianity".

 

[godrulz]

Anyone, that just read this crap from godless, still think he is in Christ?

If you do, then perhaps you should examine yourself to see if you are in the faith.

He has never come to Christ, only to a religious cult he calls "christianity".

If you think that we are justified positionally while our life is godless, demonic, and no different than that of evil unbelievers, you are fooling yourself. You have been given verses that show that the Spirit transforms us into the image and character of Christ, not in theory, but in reality. He does not just save us from the penalty of sin. He also transforms us from glory to glory. You must be blind to all of the Pauline passages that show salvation is more than initial justification. We are actually changed, new creatures, not just on paper, but in reality.

Just because I think that we actually are transformed is not a reason to call me godless or negate my faith or the faith of others who hold to the vast majority view that sanctification has an element of progression so we are different than before meeting Christ. Does character and discipleship ring a bell (without confusing it with self-righteous works salvation)?

Justification does involve being declared righteous. At the same time, we are sanctified and set apart as holy. This does not mean that we do not have a period of spiritual growth and maturation or that we are glorified at the moment of conversion. There is continuity, but you continue to blur the distinctions between what happens initially in a believer's life and what happens until we are raised with glorified bodies. It is not presented as passive either.

I Peter 1:13-16 and 2 Cor. 7:1, 2; Rom. 6, etc. must sound like self-righteous legalism to you too. They flat out contradict your myopic views, though you will rationalize them away in order to retain your dogmatism.

You and Damian/Colossians/Squecky have my vote for some of the most frustrating people to reason with from Scripture.

 

[Sozo]

If you think that we are justified positionally while our life is godless, demonic, and no different than that of evil unbelievers, you are fooling yourself.

I don't think that you are justified at all! You are godless, and demon possessed bcause you have no faith in Christ. Your "faith" is in YOU and your abilities, not in Christ's sacrifice and resurrected life.

You have been given verses that show that the Spirit transforms us into the image and character of Christ, not in theory, but in reality.

No, you lying sack of turds, I have given them to you. YOU are the godless pervert who keeps rejecting the "verses" that prove that the Spirit transforms us literally!

That was a poor attempt on your part to twist the truth to deceive. Pervert! :down:

He does not just save us from the penalty of sin. He also transforms us from glory to glory. You must be blind to all of the Pauline passages that show salvation is more than initial justification. We are actually changed, new creatures, not just on paper, but in reality.

Go to hell, you liar. You have denied this very thing in hundreds of posts.

I really think that you are an atheist who is simply here at TOL to disrupt people by speaking out of both sides of your face.

You just said...

Sanctification works actual righteousness into our lives

That is blasphemy. That is another gospel. You are a heretical, demon-possessed pervert.

Righteousness is a gift, not a process. We are righteous by faith in Christ.

 

[Philetus]

The fly on the wall just found lunch.

 

[Philetus]

I don't think that you are justified at all! You are godless, and demon possessed bcause you have no faith in Christ. Your "faith" is in YOU and your abilities, not in Christ's sacrifice and resurrected life. No, you lying sack of turds, I have given them to you. YOU are the godless pervert who keeps rejecting the "verses" that prove that the Spirit transforms us literally!

That was a poor attempt on your part to twist the truth to deceive. Pervert! :down:

Go to hell, you liar. You have denied this very thing in hundreds of posts.

I really think that you are an atheist who is simply here at TOL to disrupt people by speaking out of both sides of your face.

You just said...

That is blasphemy. That is another gospel. You are a heretical, demon-possessed pervert.

Righteousness is a gift, not a process. We are righteous by faith in Christ.

Sozo,
That is so out of line and so out of character for one who is 'in Christ' that I shutter.
Does one who is ‘in Him’ exhibit the character of Christ or not?

 

[Philetus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philetus

In Christ, God chooses to not count our sins against us nor any longer identify us by our sin.
Lighthouse, my friend, you are needlessly beating a dead elephant.

Sozo:
Apparently there is more than one elephant in the room...
Quote:

Originally Posted by Knight


I think can mess up some of the glory and rewards waiting for us in heaven when we sin.

1Corinthians 3:14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Agreed! The whole issue of rewards is problematic in light of our sins not being counted against us. I think Paul is not talking about our future status in heaven as if some will be awarded more or less depending on whether or not they ‘sin’ after coming to Christ, but is rather referring to the singularity of reward: being afforded full and free admission into the Kingdom of God (as Peter describes it). Peter admonishes us to supplement our faith with a list of virtues; gifts that if possessed and fostered will keep us from being blind and useless in the Kingdom. Apparently a lot of effort/works that Christians tend to place great emphasis and value on just don’t make much of or any real contribution to the work of the Kingdom. They will be burned. But, we won’t.

 

[Delmar]

God is not blind nor is He mocked. If He is omniscient and omnipresent, even in Open Theism terms, He sees and knows all.

God does not forget sins that you, the devil, your buddy, etc. sees and remembers. The idea of God 'forgetting' sin is that He choses to not bring it up again based on a substitute for the penalty of sin. In justification, He legally treats us just as if we never sinned, based on the work of the cross that satisfies love and holiness. Sanctification works actual righteousness into our lives, not just forensic or legal justification.

To think that God could see King David's sin, but could not see the sins of NT believers is dispensationalism gone awry undermining explicit revelation of who God is and His ways.

Anyone, that just read this crap from godless, still think he is in Christ?

If you do, then perhaps you should examine yourself to see if you are in the faith.

He has never come to Christ, only to a religious cult he calls "christianity".

The truth is brother Sozo I am not sure if , when God says "I will remember your sins no more", He actually forgets them or it is a figure of speech meaning " I will absolutely never hold them against you". What I am not seeing is why you think it makes a difference. Do you think that, if God has some memory that your sin really happened, He can't be trusted not to keep his word and not hold them against you? No, I know you don't believe that!

Now back to your question. I do believe godrulz is a dear brother, in Christ, who is wrong about a few things. I also believe that you, Sozo are a dear brother, in Christ, who is wrong about a few things. Lastly I believe that I am your dear brother, in Christ, and yes, I am most probably wrong about a few things!

 

[Sozo]

Sozo,
That is so out of line and so out of character for one who is 'in Christ' that I shutter.
Does one who is ‘in Him’ exhibit the character of Christ or not?

I disagree completely. In fact, if someone like godrulz was going into the churches that Paul was establishing, and preached the same message he is preaching here, there would have been words that Paul would have used that would have shocked the ears of a pagan.

I don't care what anyone here thinks. I am as certain that godrulz is not saved, as I am that Paul is.

I am as certain that godrulz has a demon, as I am the Charles Manson has one.

 

[Philetus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philetus

In Christ, God chooses to not count our sins against us nor any longer identify us by our sin.
Lighthouse, my friend, you are needlessly beating a dead elephant.

Lighthouse: And you're needlessly identifying with dead flesh.

Anyway, I identify myself the way God does. I regard the flesh as dead, and the Spirit keeps me focused on Christ, so that I can follow His will, and not the will of my flesh.

Needlessly? No not at all!

I also identify myself as a ‘son of God’. Continuing to live in this house of flesh keeps me from seeing equality with Christ as something to be grasped after. I am not THE Son of God! The mind set of Jesus is the one I adopt ‘in the flesh’. John makes it clear He became flesh – sarks egenito [I know my Greek is rusty and my transliteration leaves much to be desired, and that Paul uses the term ‘flesh’ in a more narrow way] – still, being in the flesh didn’t compromise His holiness! We saw (beheld) His glory!

I have seen your flesh – it ain’t dead! That is no problem for me either, because I too focus on the Spirit and see Christ in you in spite of your flesh. That is why there is no judgment or condemnation between us. But, non-Christians also see your flesh. They however can not focus on Christ in you because they do not realize nor have they experience life from the point of view of the indwelling Spirit of Christ. They need explanation for the hope you have in you … not denial of sin, but rather evidence that your sin no longer disqualifies you from enjoying a relationship with God in Christ. They need to see evidence that this relationship is actually making a difference. Our salvation doesn’t depend on it … but theirs may. “You will be my witnesses!” Denying that we have sin makes God out to be a liar, and it is lies about God that we are called to counter, both in word and in deed.

 

[Sozo]

Philetus...

"For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. Therefore from now on we recognize no man according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."

 

[Philetus]

I disagree completely. In fact, if someone like godrulz was going into the churches that Paul was establishing, and preached the same message he is preaching here, there would have been words that Paul would have used that would have shocked the ears of a pagan.

I don't care what anyone here thinks. I am as certain that godrulz is not saved, as I am that Paul is.

I am as certain that godrulz has a demon, as I am the Charles Manson has one.

Paul seem to have strong words for everybody, and I'm sure nither of us would be exempt. :chuckle:

I'm with Delmar on this one. We are all wrong about a few things (and some may even matter more or less in places other than TOL). But, I'm hard pressed to identify anyone on TOL that can claim the status of the Apostle Paul, including you. I just think that it would be helpful to your cause to curb the language a bit. Just my 2 cents ... nuff said.

 

[Philetus]

Philetus...

"For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. Therefore from now on we recognize no man according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."

I don't 'recognize' my brother according to the flesh, I recognize him as "in Christ" not by denying his sins but by recognizing that his sins are ‘covered’ and our relationship is strengthened not by denying sin, but by gently restoring one (either he me or me him) overtaken by sin, lest temptation and sin overtake us both. And making the transition from knowing Christ according to the flesh is made possible by the Spirit of Christ dwelling in us. It is only “new creatures’ who can make this distinction either in Jesus Christ (resurrected and glorified) or in individuals (as new creatures) who have not yet received their new bodies in resurrection from the grave.

When I see Lighthouse’s smiling face I recognize him by his physical characteristics. I know him as a brother by the Spirit that dwells in him. Thank God it isn’t by his theology, nor mine.

 

[elected4ever]

Sozo,, I am going to ask you to do something that will not be easy for you. It will not be easy for me ether but but I am going to work at it.

First of all there are many on this board that are the , "Weak ones for whom Christ died". You and I have knowledge that these folks do not have and yes they have been sent to spy out our liberty. They have been sent that through our liberty through the knowledge of the truth that the week ones should be destroyed. I am not in favor that the weak ones should be destroyed because of my exercise of my liberty that I received from Christ. That is not the way that our Father intended for us to use our liberty. This will not be easy but then if it were easy then everyone would do it but we know that every one does not. Though we may have to bite our tongue every now and then let's let the love of Christ constrain us for the sake of the, "weak ones for whom Christ died" We know that the weak ones are not saved just having there sins forgiven at the cross but have yet to receive life at the resurrection of Christ.

In Christ

:e4e:

 

[godrulz]

Sozo,
That is so out of line and so out of character for one who is 'in Christ' that I shutter.
Does one who is ‘in Him’ exhibit the character of Christ or not?

This is my problem with his views: they can lead to a justification for lack of godliness and Christ-like character. They can lead to presuming on grace while persisting in sin (but euphemizing it away because of semantical game-playing). The Bible does not divorce theory from reality. Telling a fleshly Christian that they are just fine in the eyes of a holy God based on initial conversion is not the whole story and not what Paul taught.

 

[godrulz]

The truth is brother Sozo I am not sure if , when God says "I will remember your sins no more", He actually forgets them or it is a figure of speech meaning " I will absolutely never hold them against you". What I am not seeing is why you think it makes a difference. Do you think that, if God has some memory that your sin really happened, He can't be trusted not to keep his word and not hold them against you? No, I know you don't believe that!

Now back to your question. I do believe godrulz is a dear brother, in Christ, who is wrong about a few things. I also believe that you, Sozo are a dear brother, in Christ, who is wrong about a few things. Lastly I believe that I am your dear brother, in Christ, and yes, I am most probably wrong about a few things!

There you go folks...a wise, mature believer who understands humility based on truth.

Your concept of forgiveness is on track. An omniscient God does not really have amnesia, but treats us just as if we never sinned based on a substitute for the penalty of sin. He choses not to bring things up again or hold them against us (impute). He does not go blank while Satan, your mother, and your own memory easily recall the past.

 

[godrulz]

I disagree completely. In fact, if someone like godrulz was going into the churches that Paul was establishing, and preached the same message he is preaching here, there would have been words that Paul would have used that would have shocked the ears of a pagan.

I don't care what anyone here thinks. I am as certain that godrulz is not saved, as I am that Paul is.

I am as certain that godrulz has a demon, as I am the Charles Manson has one.

No credibility, no character, no critical thinking ability. Why do people blindly follow this guy without censure and rebuke?

 

[elected4ever]

This is my problem with his views: they can lead to a justification for lack of godliness and Christ-like character. They can lead to presuming on grace while persisting in sin (but euphemizing it away because of semantical game-playing). The Bible does not divorce theory from reality. Telling a fleshly Christian that they are just fine in the eyes of a holy God based on initial conversion is not the whole story and not what Paul taught.

Godrulz, you would presume to tell me what the character of Christ is when you by your own testimony have not received this life. You are not one to instruct in these things.

 

[godrulz]

Sozo,, I am going to ask you to do something that will not be easy for you. It will not be easy for me ether but but I am going to work at it.

First of all there are many on this board that are the , "Weak ones for whom Christ died". You and I have knowledge that these folks do not have and yes they have been sent to spy out our liberty. They have been sent that through our liberty through the knowledge of the truth that the week ones should be destroyed. I am not in favor that the weak ones should be destroyed because of my exercise of my liberty that I received from Christ. That is not the way that our Father intended for us to use our liberty. This will not be easy but then if it were easy then everyone would do it but we know that every one does not. Though we may have to bite our tongue every now and then let's let the love of Christ constrain us for the sake of the, "weak ones for whom Christ died" We know that the weak ones are not saved just having there sins forgiven at the cross but have yet to receive life at the resurrection of Christ.

In Christ

:e4e:

Thinly veiled arrogance/pride. The so-called weak ones are actually more mature than the gruesome twosome.

 

[elected4ever]

Thinly veiled arrogance/pride. The so-called weak ones are actually more mature than the gruesome twosome.

Knowledge of the truth is not arrogance and seeking to act according to wisdom is not pride. The weak ones have only there sin forgiven but have not believed that they should be saved. One cannot be mature in something that they have no knowledge off. So don't presume to instruct me in what you have no knowledge off and in fact have rejected.