ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.

[elected4ever]

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

What were the motions of sin that brought forth death?

Romans 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The carnal man is a man of flesh and bone and of earthly will born of the seed of Adam. This earthly person that we are by birth is incompatible with the law. and the holy righteous law condemned me. My sin became exceeding sinful even to the point that when I knew to do right I couldn't do it.

Paul cries out Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Then Paul gives thanks for the truth that God has given Him. 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.Why? Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Now who are we? Are we of the flesh of the spirit? Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. This is the conclusion
10 ¶And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
[/B]

 

[godrulz]

Answer the question.

The sky is blue because...never mind.

 

[godrulz]

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.​

I Jn. 3:3 and 2 Cor. 7:1 talk about purifying ourselves, but not without the indwelling spirit. Negating the will negates personal responsibility.

 

[Sozo]

Negating the will negates personal responsibility.

Worshipping the will is self-righteousness.

 

[kmoney]

This is the logical conclusion if you follow their views to their logical end. Their wrong assumptions lead to wrong conclusions, but they cannot see it. They want their cake and eat it to requiring double speak and inconsistencies to retain their preconceived ideas.

godrulz, I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I think I agree that they want their cake and eat it too, but who would you say you are most in agreement with here? What wrong conclusions? assumptions?

 

[godrulz]

Worshipping the will is self-righteousness.

Jesus had a will. The Father has a will. The will is God-given. It is part of being in the image of God. How do you get through life without exercising your independent will? Impossible!

Themes of obedience, love, faith, etc. all have a volitional component. This is why we are not deterministic robots (ah ah..you have a form of determinism, conveniently negating personal responsibility).

In your vain attempt to avoid self-righteousness, you have thrown out the gift of freedom from God Himself. Jesus using His will for the glory of God was not independent self-righteousness. Our using our wills in submission to God and His Word is not self-righteous.

You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater, going to an extreme to avoid another extreme (I should have been a doctor for my diagnostic abilities :greedy: ).

We do not passively have the mind of Christ. The Holy Spirit uses the Word of truth to renew our minds and energize our wills (Rom. 12:1, 2; John). Yielding and obedience are Pauline themes in our control. Because the indwelling Spirit is involved, it is not self-righteousness nor passive. Justification may be passive upon repentant faith, but sanctification is portrayed with a Godward and manward aspect. You are one of the few believers I have met in 25 years who denies this (including most biblical scholars who would throw many verses at you to undermine your simplistic ideas).

 

[godrulz]

godrulz, I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I think I agree that they want their cake and eat it too, but who would you say you are most in agreement with here? What wrong conclusions? assumptions?

I am taking your side. It is more balanced and biblical.

 

[Clete]

Yes, those were consequences from God. Is there a point you're trying to make here? :idunno:

You acted as if I wasn't talking about consequences of God, kmoney!

What the crap are we talking about here?
You object to eternal security as being a license to sin and I show you all the consequences a man could ask for aside from eternal condemnation in Hell and you act like I don't have a point! What is going on? I feel like we should be having a pretty much linear conversation here that should be easy enough to follow. Why are you making me repeat myself without cause?

I agree, which is why I'm excluding earthly consequences in this discussion.

Then why did you ask the question? :bang:

I agree, but that's not really what I'm talking about. I guess I'm not being clear enough.

Yeah I guess so!

Scenario 1: An Israelite in the OT murders someone, he then repents before he is executed. Do the Day of Atonement sacrifices atone for that murder? Does any sacrifice atone for that murder?

Yes! That is, to the degree that such sacrifices actually atoned for anything. The priests sacrifices were only a temporary covering until Christ Himself made the real sacrifice. This is why believers, prior to the cross, we taken after their deaths to Abraham's Bosom rather than directly to heaven. They waited there until the real Day of Atonement which Christ Himself fulfilled.

Scenario 2: Someone murders someone, he then repents before he is executed. Does Christ's sacrifice atone for that?

YES! That's one major benefit to having a justly exercised death penalty on the books!

When David committed adultery and what was tantamount to murder he said that God didn't want a sacrifice or any offering; the only offering God wanted was a contrite heart, genuine repentance. Now I'm sure you could make the argument that an offering without genuine repentance is useless, but I don't think that's what David means.

Well it doesn't matter what you think, now does it? That's either what David meant or it isn't. And Paul makes the same point when he talks about how the blood of bulls and goats was never able to save anyone. It isn't dead animals that God wants, it's people's hearts. This is a consistent theme throughout the Bible but that does not mean that following the Mosaic Law was optional for people under that covenant. IT WAS NOT OPTIONAL!!! If you willfully chose not to follow God's law, you were God's enemy. It's as simple as that.

Further, one might respond to this point about David by saying, "So what?". I'm not at all certain what your point even is.

I'm not focusing on those consequences because, like you said before, sin is a spiritual problem with God, not a physical/earthly problem. Those can't be included when talking about a license to sin. Do you understand why I think that?

I understand but I do not agree. But either way, I've shown you both types of consequences, so take your pick! I'm not really sure what more you want.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

I Jn. 3:3 and 2 Cor. 7:1 talk about purifying ourselves, but not without the indwelling spirit. Negating the will negates personal responsibility.

WHAT?

How is this responsive to the point?

Sozo and the other idiot on this thread don't think we can sin. Paul, my only Apostle, says we can.

Case closed.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

I am taking your side. It is more balanced and biblical.

An endorsement from the poster child of unsubstantiated personal opinions.

Big whoop!

 

[Sozo]

Jesus had a will. The Father has a will. The will is God-given. It is part of being in the image of God. How do you get through life without exercising your independent will? Impossible!

The "will" is not intended by God, to be used, to be like Jesus. That is what you are attempting to do throught your worship of it.

Worth repeating:

You choose to become like Jesus through human effort. You put your will above God and to worship self as the determining factor for righteousness. You started a new religion where you became your own little "god" who "rulz" on the thrown of self-righteousness. You have made yourself into an idol, and are nothing more than an idol worshipper.

Themes of obedience, love, faith, etc. all have a volitional component.

NO, they are a fruit of the Spirit, not the flesh. The flesh is contrary to the Spirit and incapable of love, joy, peace, paitence, etc. To come to Christ is to surrender your will to His. "not my will, but thine be done".

This is why you are not saved, you have never surrendered your will, but instead you have exalted it to do for your self that which only God can do.

Jesus using His will for the glory of God was not independent self-righteousness.

Jesus surrendered His will to God.

"I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

"'Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven."

"Father, if Thou art willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Thine be done."

You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater, going to an extreme to avoid another extreme

I am telling you the truth. You are throwing the truth out, because you want to save your self.

I should have been a doctor for my diagnostic abilities

If that was the case, then all of your patients would be dead. :dead:

 

[elected4ever]

WHAT?

Sozo and the other idiot on this thread don't think we can sin. Paul, my only Apostle, says we can.

Case closed.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete, This idiot for Christ also thinks that you, Poly, Knight or any other Born again Child of God cannot sin. The only way a person can sin is to remain in the flesh and unbelief. I ask you the same question over and over again and I never get an answer. Just a a bunch of snide remarks as to how we have this ability to choose. As if your ability to choose to sin were taken away that you would somehow make God an unjust God. Do you believe that you are of the Spirit or do you believe that you remain in the flesh? Your only Apostle said and I quote, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." This is a very definitive statement. If you are of the Spirit then no you cannot sin. If you identify with the flesh then yes you can. Where is your identity In Christ or in Yourself? Does the Spirit of God dwell in you?

A True Idiot for Christ
:e4e:

 

[jeremysdemo]

The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.

I guess that's a good enough excuse for many Christians, they got a free ticket, don't have to change or do anything, only believe.
Their "belief" saves them, not refinement in the Fire of Living God. Not submitance to His will.
Not abdandoning this earth and following Jesus, letting His word (Rehmas) abide in us.....that's got nuttin' to do with it.

keep shinin'

jerm

 

[Lighthouse]

What do you mean?

Are they in the flesh, or the Spirit?

But if you do, does anything happen?

Such as?

Unless you think there are consequences to live in sin, you do have a license. (at least by my definition)

Of course there are consequences.

 

[Lighthouse]

The sky is blue because...never mind.

Are you in the flesh, or the Spirit?

 

[Clete]

Clete, This idiot for Christ also thinks that you, Poly, Knight or any other Born again Child of God cannot sin. The only way a person can sin is to remain in the flesh and unbelief. I ask you the same question over and over again and I never get an answer. Just a a bunch of snide remarks as to how we have this ability to choose. As if your ability to choose to sin were taken away that you would somehow make God an unjust God. Do you believe that you are of the Spirit or do you believe that you remain in the flesh? Your only Apostle said and I quote, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." This is a very definitive statement. If you are of the Spirit then no you cannot sin. If you identify with the flesh then yes you can. Where is your identity In Christ or in Yourself? Does the Spirit of God dwell in you?

A True Idiot for Christ
:e4e:

I don't respond again because I have already responded. You repeatedly make the very distinction that you insist doesn't exist. You're irrational and intentionally confusing. You aren't interested in teaching but in being superior to those around you. Your knowledge has puffed you up and I think it is disgusting. As I said in the first post I posted in this thread, the whole issue comes down to a definition of the word sin. Everyone in the world uses the word one way and you insist on using it another but then as you did in this post, acknowledge the distinction anyway. How many times do you want me to say it? Just because you ignore the refutation of your position doesn't mean it hasn't been refuted.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[elected4ever]

I don't respond again because I have already responded. You repeatedly make the very distinction that you insist doesn't exist. You're irrational and intentionally confusing. You aren't interested in teaching but in being superior to those around you. Your knowledge has puffed you up and I think it is disgusting. As I said in the first post I posted in this thread, the whole issue comes down to a definition of the word sin. Everyone in the world uses the word one way and you insist on using it another but then as you did in this post, acknowledge the distinction anyway. How many times do you want me to say it? Just because you ignore the refutation of your position doesn't mean it hasn't been refuted.

Resting in Him,
Clete

There is nothing eleetist about what i am saying and you know it.. The only thing that I can possibly conclude is that you are in the flesh because you insist on remaining in your sin. I just keep telling you that it doesn't have to be that way.

 

[Benjamin]

Godrulez is right, e4e and sozo are Scripture twisting heretic's who preserve the doctrine's of men and throw away anything that opposes them (including inerrant Word).

 

[godrulz]

WHAT?

How is this responsive to the point?

Sozo and the other idiot on this thread don't think we can sin. Paul, my only Apostle, says we can.

Case closed.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I agree with you. I was giving further evidence that there is an initial setting apart as holy and an ongoing work of the Spirit to conform us more and more to the image of Christ (fruit of the Spirit). Any one post may apply to any previous posts or themes, not just the one right before it (I also got an ambulance call and cut the post off before I could further develop it).

 

[godrulz]

The "will" is not intended by God, to be used, to be like Jesus. That is what you are attempting to do throught your worship of it.

:

His will was lined up with the will of God through obedience. He told His followers that if you love me, you will obey me (volitional...see OT for foundational evidence). There were various early church kenotic heresies about the incarnation. One of them, rejected by Church Councils, was that Jesus did not have a separate will from the Father or that He did not have a human will as a man.

Saying that we do not have wills would mean you could not chose between an apple or an orange and that God is responsible when Christian pastors adulterate.