ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.

[Sozo]

Equally capable, godly believers understand these vital truths with different nuances of understanding. If your perfect understanding of these terms is a condition for salvation, virtually no one is saved. You are replacing Christ and His finished work with your personal opinions as a basis for salvation.

Look, moron, try posting something substantial. If those are not the essentials, then you post what they are. Put up, or shut up.

I have already proven that those are the essentials. Where is your response to that post?

 

[Lighthouse]

Flesh isn't Christian, the person is.

And who is the person?

Yes, it's the flesh, but I don't believe Paul is saying there is some force working independent of you that sins. Paul does contrast spirit and flesh, but it's because there are two desires working in him, not because the "Flesh" causes him to sin and he's powerless to stop it. Your flesh does not become a scapegoat.

If we thought it was okay to allow the "flesh" to continue disobeying God's copmmands, you might have a point. But what you've said about Paul, shows that this is not the case. We are told not to let sin reign in our mortal bodies.

To sum up what I'm thinking right now I think you have to say one of two things. Either Christians have a license to sin OR Christians can act out the lusts of the flesh and will not inherit the kingdom of God because of it. And that's because of the actions, not because that person didn't really believe. Now you have been consistently saying that we do indeed have a license to sin so you will simply choose the first option. I, however, do not believe Christ would provide us a license to sin, which is what most Christians would say (I think), but the problem is (in my opinion) is that they would not conclude the 2nd option either. They deny a license to sin even though their theology is just that.

We have freedom to falter, and to fail. But that is not a license to live in sin. "It was for freedom that Christ set us free."

 

[godrulz]

Look, moron, try posting something substantial. If those are not the essentials, then you post what they are. Put up, or shut up.

I have already proven that those are the essentials. Where is your response to that post?

See hundreds of previous posts were you and I have beaten the dead horse.

 

[Sozo]

See hundreds of previous posts were you and I have beaten the dead horse.

All I see is hundreds of posts that show that when you are challenged, you come up with lame excuses, like the one you just posted, for refusing to defend your false gospel.

You're a coward, and a liar.

 

[Lighthouse]

I am a Christian in Christ. I am a Christian in the Spirit, because the Spirit dwells in me. I am perfect in Christ. I am not, however, perfect in the flesh. And I never will be on this Earth. So I must work with the Spirit to bring my flesh into submission to God. But I do not identify myself as one who is in the flesh. I identify myself as one who isn ithe Spirit. And when I say flesh, I mean mind, body, and will.

So my question to you all is this: Are you in the flesh, or in the Spirit?

 

[elected4ever]

Treating the symptoms of the disease does nothing to cure the disease. The disease is death and its symptom is sin. Attacking sin is like putting a band-aid on a cancer patient. We can cover the evidence of the disease but the the disease remains. The cure for the disease of death is life.

Jesus came to apply the cure, life, to the disease, death. If we continually apply bandages to the symptoms then the disease will never be cured. All you and I can do is expose the symptoms of the disease to those who have the disease of death. We then tell those who wont the symptoms to disappear that they can apply the ointment of of repentance to the cancerous sores called sin. As lone as the ointment of repentance is continually applied then the symptoms of the disease death will not appear and we then just stop what ever it is that causes those awful sours of sin to appear. This is not what we have been instructed to do.

We have been told to bring the dead to Jesus where He has applied the ointment of forgiveness once for every man and it is available to every man. The symptom called sin is cured but this does nothing for the underlying disease, death. The patient only looks healthy and acts healthy but the disease is continuing to fester and one day will be beyond remedy if the cure is not applied.

The only way for the disease of death to be cured is for God to apply life. Life is not applied automatically when the symptoms of death, Sin, is treated. The treatment for death is applied when one believes that Jesus rose from the dead and we accept that life as our own. You can believe all day long that your sins are covered but unless you also believe that you are now in Christ and His life is your life, today, you remain dead. The remedy for death is a victorious risen savior

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 ¶For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[Sozo]

All of these are matters of the heart and mind when you believe...



Identity of Jesus - Who are you putting faith in for salvation

"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved."

Sin - What you have that must be dealt with to be saved.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"

Grace - You cannot earn salvation

Faith - Giving your self to the One whom you believe for salvation

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."

Life - What you are coming to receive for salvation from the One whom you believe.

"...but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name"

"And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent."

Identity of the believer - What you give up and what you receive! He gives you His life, and takes yours.

"If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me."

"Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."

Propitiation - He satisfied your debt, because you could not

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God."

Justification - You know you cannot do right, you must be made right.

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."

Sanctification - He sets you apart from darkness to light, from death to life, from the world and unto Himself.

"I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness."

"...to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'

Righteousness - You accept His as a gift, because you have none of your own.

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness"

"For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ."

 

[godrulz]

All I see is hundreds of posts that show that when you are challenged, you come up with lame excuses, like the one you just posted, for refusing to defend your false gospel.

You're a coward, and a liar.

Deaf, dumb, and blind...he's the pinball wizard...blah blah...

 

[godrulz]

I am a Christian in Christ. I am a Christian in the Spirit, because the Spirit dwells in me. I am perfect in Christ. I am not, however, perfect in the flesh. And I never will be on this Earth. So I must work with the Spirit to bring my flesh into submission to God. But I do not identify myself as one who is in the flesh. I identify myself as one who isn ithe Spirit. And when I say flesh, I mean mind, body, and will.

So my question to you all is this: Are you in the flesh, or in the Spirit?

Does sozo agree with this? Sounds like a Christian can sin.

 

[elected4ever]

Does sozo agree with this? Sounds like a Christian can sin.

I agree with it. Wont to make something of it. I am of the Spirit so no, I no longer sin. What about you, godrulz.

 

[Sozo]

Does sozo agree with this?

Of course I do. Never said otherwise.

The only variation I might have is that I might give the responsibilty to God who is at work in me by His Spirit to disciple me by renewing my mind, rather than an act of the will in submission.

Sounds like a Christian can sin

Then you're deaf.

 

[Lighthouse]

Does sozo agree with this? Sounds like a Christian can sin.

Answer the question.

 

[Lighthouse]

Of course I do. Never said otherwise.

The only variation I might have is that I might give the responsibilty to God who is at work in me by His Spirit to disciple me by renewing my mind, rather than an act of the will in submission.

Did I forget to say that?

 

[Clete]

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.​

 

[Lighthouse]

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.​

Romans 7: 16-17
"If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me."

Romans 7:20
"Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me."

Context, Clete.

 

[Sozo]

I don't want to throw a wrench into your conversation, but Paul is in no ways referring to his life in Christ in those passages.

You do not say that you are in bondage to sin, ask WHO will set you free from this death, and say thanks be to God for Jesus, if you have already experienced salvation. Paul is reflecting on how he wanted to keep the Law but as he says in several other places that the Law shuts up all me under sin. It is his testimony of the Law working in him to lead him to Christ for salvation. He wanted to keep the Law, but he always fell short. Paul was under condemnation, but Jesus set him free. He is no longer under condemnation, and therefore he would not have those struggles in Christ.

 

[Clete]

Lighthouse, I quoted the entire passage just a few posts ago and no one responded. Don't talk to me about context.

Sozo, do you have any evidence that the text is written in the past tense or aren't you actually just reading your theology into the text?

 

[Sozo]

Sozo, do you have any evidence that the text is written in the past tense

Yes, Romans 7 and the first part of Romans 8. Also a huge part of Romans 5.

My previous post is not exhaustive on the subject, but it's pretty simple really.

Someone who is already free from "this death" through Jesus Christ, is not going to ask the question in the present tense "Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?"

It is true that we still have indwelling sin in our flesh, but Paul no longer struggles against it, because he has been set free from the law of sin and death by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. He has been set free from the "body of this death".

 

[kmoney]

And who is the person?

What do you mean?

If we thought it was okay to allow the "flesh" to continue disobeying God's copmmands, you might have a point. But what you've said about Paul, shows that this is not the case. We are told not to let sin reign in our mortal bodies.

But if you do, does anything happen?

We have freedom to falter, and to fail. But that is not a license to live in sin. "It was for freedom that Christ set us free."

Unless you think there are consequences to live in sin, you do have a license. (at least by my definition)

 

[kmoney]

I Corinthians 11:27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
33 Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment.​

Yes, those were consequences from God. Is there a point you're trying to make here? :idunno:

Physical execution is only one small part of paying our sin debt to God. Sin is not a physical problem so much as it is a spiritual one.

I agree, which is why I'm excluding earthly consequences in this discussion.

And what's more, criminal justice doesn't have anything to do with salvation or the forgiveness of sins except that when it is done rightly both forgiveness and salvation become very much more likely. If person is guilty of murder and repents and is forgiven of their sins by God and taken into the Body of Christ (i.e. they are saved) the right thing for them to do is to demand their own immediate execution for their crime.

I agree, but that's not really what I'm talking about. I guess I'm not being clear enough.
Scenario 1: An Israelite in the OT murders someone, he then repents before he is executed. Do the Day of Atonement sacrifices atone for that murder? Does any sacrifice atone for that murder?

Scenario 2: Someone murders someone, he then repents before he is executed. Does Christ's sacrifice atone for that?

When David committed adultery and what was tantamount to murder he said that God didn't want a sacrifice or any offering; the only offering God wanted was a contrite heart, genuine repentance. Now I'm sure you could make the argument that an offering without genuine repentance is useless, but I don't think that's what David means.

Because you asked me whether or not Christians can still fulfill the lusts of the flesh. The answer, according to Paul, is an emphatic yes!

Ok, well then I'm glad we agree on that. :up:

Why not? My point is that you ought to be talking about those types of consequences because they are very real and very painful. Ignoring such consequences is the only possible way anyone could dream of suggesting that those who preach the gospel of Grace are teaching that we have a license to sin. An accusation which was level at the apostle Paul himself, I might add. If you are not getting accused of teaching that we have license to sin then there is something about what you are teaching that does not resemble that which Paul taught. Sometimes when people make the accusation it is because of a misunderstanding and sometimes it is because they are being intentionally hostile toward the message but in any case, I count myself in good company when people tell me that I preach a "greasy grace gospel" or some other such thing.

I'm not focusing on those consequencse because, like you said before, sin is a spiritual problem with God, not a physical/earthly problem. Those can't be included when talking about a license to sin. Do you understand why I think that?