ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.

[Clete]

When I talk about a license to sin I would use that definition but I'm only talking about consequences from God. Generally that means one thing.

I Corinthians 11:27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
33 Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment.​

It does say all their sins. I was thinking more about sins that ended with the execution of the sinner instead of a sacrifice to atone for them. Let's say an Israelite murdered someone and he is summarily executed. Does the High Priest atone for that person on the Day of Atonement?

Physical execution is only one small part of paying our sin debt to God. Sin is not a physical problem so much as it is a spiritual one. And what's more, criminal justice doesn't have anything to do with salvation or the forgiveness of sins except that when it is done rightly both forgiveness and salvation become very much more likely. If person is guilty of murder and repents and is forgiven of their sins by God and taken into the Body of Christ (i.e. they are saved) the right thing for them to do is to demand their own immediate execution for their crime. Your spiritual status does not impact upon your criminal status until after you're dead, otherwise.

Why did you quote this?

Because you asked me whether or not Christians can still fulfill the lusts of the flesh. The answer, according to Paul, is an emphatic yes!

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.​

That's all true, but I'm not talking about those types of consequences.

Why not? My point is that you ought to be talking about those types of consequences because they are very real and very painful. Ignoring such consequences is the only possible way anyone could dream of suggesting that those who preach the gospel of Grace are teaching that we have a license to sin. An accusation which was level at the apostle Paul himself, I might add. If you are not getting accused of teaching that we have license to sin then there is something about what you are teaching that does not resemble that which Paul taught. Sometimes when people make the accusation it is because of a misunderstanding and sometimes it is because they are being intentionally hostile toward the message but in any case, I count myself in good company when people tell me that I preach a "greasy grace gospel" or some other such thing.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

That is a correct answer!

That's another way of saying it.

Maturity is total dependancy.

It's that simple.

The creature or Christian should be dependent on God and the Spirit, but it is not automatic or coerced. It is possible to be independent in some areas, to our detriment.

 

[godrulz]

He's out of town this weekend.

Probably a Promise Keepers - Losers Weepers convention.

PK has done some good things for men.

You now know I was at a TKD seminar.

 

[godrulz]

So there is a condition? If you don't stop, what happens?

The bible clearly states that a believer has been made perfect forever. (Hebrews 7-10)

A believer is holy, righteous, complete, and perfect. If not, then the sacrifice and resurrection were worthless.

Non sequitur. Just because millions go to hell does not make his sacrifice worthless. Just because some remain immature and do not become what God intends them to be, does not mean His power or grace is limited. We are the weak link in the chain, not His provision. His grace to save, keep, or sanctify us is not irresistible.

 

[godrulz]

Okay, thanks.

I wonder how many it would really be if not for all the pruning that Knight has done over the last 4 years, and if I had not personally deleted over 3000 on my own.

I imagine the 3000 would shed some more light on what you are really like (i.e. not 'perfect').

 

[godrulz]

But see, I contend that what many Christians believe do give them a license to sin. For example, a Christian belives they can sin but they also believe all their sins (past, present, future) are covered/forgiven by Christ's sacrifice. Wouldn't the logical conclusion be that they can sin all the day long and it's ok because of what Christ did?? How is that not a license to sin?? :idunno:

This is the logical conclusion if you follow their views to their logical end. Their wrong assumptions lead to wrong conclusions, but they cannot see it. They want their cake and eat it to requiring double speak and inconsistencies to retain their preconceived ideas.

 

[godrulz]

This is why I despise just about everything Pat Robertson says. God punishing people on earth for their sins? :bang: IT FRIGGIN' NEGATES JESUS' DEATH AND RESURRECTION!

Acts...NT...post-resurrection...Ananias and Sapphira....the Corinthian saints who were dying due to God's judgment on their sin, etc.

 

[godrulz]

I would like to ask him, "What sin does God remember to punish you for?" God says, "I will remember them no more".

God does not bring up our past sins before conversion. Do you really think the omniscient, holy God does not see a pastor who adulterates?

e4e...how do you explain Christians who commit adultery? If the Corinthian saints can fornicate and be rebuked by God through Paul, why do you think that God is blind to sin in the modern church? He sent prophets in the OT to rebuke David (adultery/murder). Do you think that His holiness and Law are compromised just because we are in the NT? Antinomianism is a heresy. God will not be mocked. Judgment starts with the house of God. The fact that believers experience the conviction of the Spirit through the Word if they sin flies in the face of your perfectionist views.

 

[godrulz]

This is a great topic and a great truth to teach: Our Identity in Christ. This is a positional truth. Others in this thread have done a great job showing this truth through scripture already so I won't bother with a lengthy post; however, I did want to add a few coments.

In my opinion, the Bible very plainly shows through the Episltles of Paul that Christians are to place their identity in Christ and not sin. If we truly realize that Christ crucified sin upon the cross and we now recognize that we have the Mind of Christ, we are truly free indeed. That's right...we are free from sin!

Christians who do not realize this truth and who continue to sin thinking that they are still subject to sin will effectually crucify Christ over and over and over again. This is wrong. Most Christians have an attitude of "doing" instead of "being". That is most Christians feel that they must do certain things to achieve Christ-likeness. The fact of the matter is that we are already Christ-like. We have the Mind of Christ. All we have to do is allow Christ to work in us and we will bear righteous fruit!

Believing that Christians can and do still sin is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If a Christian identifies themselves with sin, they will sin. It's pretty simple really. Identifying with sin will allow the flesh to continue sinning.

Now, it is my observation that most Christians, the ones who place a lot of importance and emphasis on free will (Open Viewers), will never get this important truth or they will be intellectually dishonest about it. This is so because believing in this biblical truth shows the truth of depravity. The old man dying shows that we were indeed born children of wrath. This is why the majority of Open Viewers will never concede the truth of our Identity in Christ. It will hurt their bogus theology of Openness. At any rate, that's my opinion.

Again, this is a great subject to talk about! Great job, Sozo! :thumb:

Roland

You do not believe the same since they say a Christian cannot sin. You seem to say that one will not sin (but you did say a Christian will sin if they identify...), but they could if they want to. Will not is not cannot.

 

[godrulz]

So you don't agree with the book of Hebrews?

Okay, that's your choice.

Just so you know, you have no idea what the gospel is.

If you'd like to find out, start another thread, and I'll answer your questions about our responsibilities in thise life while we await the redemption of our bodies.

We agree with the Book of Hebrews (except Mid-Acts people?). We just disagree with your subjective conclusions about some of its objective teaching.

 

[godrulz]

And who gives you the right to say whether someone is saved or not? You ARE not God...

He plays god as judge, jury, and executioner. He thinks he is like Jesus and Paul, but lacks their wisdom, discernment, and maturity.

 

[godrulz]

I did not say I was not saved, I quoted scripture (Romans 8:25)-we are not yet eternal in the fullest sense; if we were already 'eternal' then why the need for our earthly bodies to die? We are not yet fully eternal; we are living to reach eternity (we are in the 'already, but not yet) we are living for it, but we have not yet achieved it in it's entirety.

We are not glorified yet. Sozo seems to blur the distinctions between justification, sanctification, and glorification (past, present, future). If you do not articulate these doctrines like he does, you become an unbeliever?! :doh:

 

[godrulz]

I don't have time tonight, to break all of this down. (If she was truly interested, I'd take the time).


These are the essentials...

Identity of Jesus
Sin
Grace
Faith
Life
Identity of the believer
Propitiation
Justification
Sanctification
Righteousness

Equally capable, godly believers understand these vital truths with different nuances of understanding. If your perfect understanding of these terms is a condition for salvation, virtually no one is saved. You are replacing Christ and His finished work with your personal opinions as a basis for salvation.

 

[godrulz]

Are you seriously suggesting that a person needs to understand all of that in order to be saved?

Can you establish that Biblically?

We are saved by grace through faith in the person and finished work of Christ. We are not saved by theological perfection and especially not by spouting sozoisms.

 

[godrulz]

Thank you.



Acts 13:6-10
Now when they had gone through the island to Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew whose name was Bar-Jesus, 7 who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, an intelligent man. This man called for Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God. 8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so his name is translated) withstood them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. 9 Then Saul, who also is called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him 10 and said, “O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord?

You're really going to compare mercyschild with a sorcerer who was purposely seeking to turn people away from the faith? This isn't even going to an extreme. It's simply wrong to do.

Calling me a Christ-hating, demon-possessed, worse than Hitler, godless pervert, etc. also grieves the Lord who bought me with His precious blood.

 

[godrulz]

Where does it say in Romans 10:9 that someone must believe that Jesus is God? Where in that verse does it state that Jesus died for anyone's sins?

You're a blithering idiot, Clete!

You did the very same thing that you accused me of doing!

You may be articulate, but all that does is hide the fact that you are a hypocrite, a fool, and a lying piece of crap.

You're worse than a homo.

:shut: :shocked: :wave2:

Clete is your 9th child...that was funny.

So is this.... http://www.sozousa.com/

Mercy was your whipping post while I was away....that was not funny.

I am impressed (not) with the tremendous love and unity among the brethren on this thread. Perhaps it is time to close it?

 

[Clete]

This is the logical conclusion if you follow their views to their logical end. Their wrong assumptions lead to wrong conclusions, but they cannot see it. They want their cake and eat it to requiring double speak and inconsistencies to retain their preconceived ideas.

You give Sozo a hard time for his "Sozoisms" and then spout this unsubstantiated crap as though it's somehow not insulting at all! Don't be a hypocrite godrulz!

It's not the logical conclusion at all. The only reason anyone would come to that conclusion, as I have already pointed out just a few posts ago, is if they are either misunderstanding something or are intentionally trying to undermine the gospel. Which is it for you godrulz? I can't tell any more!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

You give Sozo a hard time for his "Sozoisms" and then spout this unsubstantiated crap as though it's somehow not insulting at all! Don't be a hypocrite godrulz!

It's not the logical conclusion at all. The only reason anyone would come to that conclusion, as I have already pointed out just a few posts ago, is if they are either misunderstanding something or are intentionally trying to undermine the gospel. Which is it for you godrulz? I can't tell any more!

Resting in Him,
Clete

Just because you can't see what I see does not mean I do not have a point. It is possible, not necessary (the same thing as saying there is no place for prayer, faith, or evangelism in Calvinism...only half true).

You seem a bit grumpy today (mad at the world or me in particular?). I am surprised that sozo has blasted you. How wude.

 

[Sozo]

PK has done some good things for men.

You now know I was at a TKD seminar.

TKD? :idunno:

Twits, Knuckleheads & Dimwits seminar?

Did you you get a medal?

 

[godrulz]

TKD? :idunno:

Twits, Knuckleheads & Dimwits seminar?

Did you you get a medal?

TaeKwon-Do.

I just got bruises, neck pain, and a sore fist (board breaking was easier when I pictured your face on it ).