ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.

[Evee]

That is only if we remain in the Flesh. Which we do not. If you remain in the flesh evee, then yes you still sin. Are you happy that you can still sin?

Since you are not in the flesh then you should not have no fleshly desires, If you tell me you never lust never cuss steal never get angry.. do nothing pertaining to the flesh, then I would say you don't sin.
I never said our sins weren't covered though.

 

[Sozo]

I have been saving the following for Sozo but you have forced my hand (in a different way from Sozo).

Your disagreement isn't with me it's with the Apostle Paul as he addresses this very thing....

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin [ Sozo take note "shall we" ] that grace may abound? [ godrulz take note it isn't a theory, it's reality ]2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? [ Sozo take note, we are dead to sin but we shouldn't live sinfully ] 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should [ Sozo take note "we should" ] walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. [ godrulz take note "no longer slaves of sin" ] 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. [ godrulz take note "freed from sin" is very clear ] 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. [ Sozo take note "dominion", sin doesn't have "dominion" but Paul is clearly making the point that we still have the ability to sin ] 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, [ godrulz take note "dead to sin" ] but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign [ Sozo take note "do not let sin reign", don't let sin "reign"! ] in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. [ Sozo take note "should" clearly we are capable of sin yet freed as in immune ]​

It's funny.... the above verses refute both godrulz and Sozo yet for completely opposite reasons.

To the two of you.... (whom I respect greatly):
- Because of Christ's work on the cross we who are in Christ are dead to sin (as in immune).
- Christian's are still warned to not sin, yet many/most/all still do sin.
- That sin is not imputed to the Christian (because of their identity in Christ).

Sorry, Knight, but on these verses, you fail miserably...


Verse 1

“What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase?”

Paul has just spent the previous 5 chapters proving that ALL men are guilty of sin (chapter 1); That they cannot use the Law to compare themselves against one another, because the Law is what proves ALL men are guilty of sin (chapter 2); That righteousness (freedom from sin) comes by faith alone in Jesus Christ, and not be the works of the Law (chapter 3); That God chose Abraham as the father of all who believe God will give us this righteousness as a result of Christ's sacrifice for sin so that we are now justified by faith, and not by works (chapter 4); and even though all men are sinners because of the disobedience of one man (Adam), yet all men may receive life because of the obedience of only One Man (Jesus).

Romans 5 concludes:

"And the Law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Sin reigned in death, Knight. Are you still dead?

Therefore, the obvious question in Romans 6:1

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase?"

This is a rhetorical question, because Paul already knows the answer. But, it is an obvious question based on his conclusion in chapter 5. (paraphrased) "Why not keep sinning so that the grace of God (which is greater) will increase all the more?"

Paul makes the answer abundantly clear:

Verse 2

"May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? "

Paul is emphatic! We have died to sin, and therefore it is impossible to live in sin! Not some legalistic recommendation that you shouldn't be sinning, but a clear statement of the impossibility of the event.

Paul goes on to explain why it is impossible for you to live in sin.

Verse 3

"Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?"

Anyone who has come to Christ by faith, has been baptized into His body, and has shared in His death (and resurrection).

Verse 4

"Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."

This "newness of life" is not a changed life, but an exchanged life. We give Him our life, and He gives us His! We are a new creation. We are not under the law of sin and death, but the law of the Spirit of life in Christ.

Verse 5

"For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection"

When Jesus died to sin, so did we, and the life that Jesus has is the very life of God, and so is ours!


Verse 6

"knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin;"

Your "old self" is who you were in Adam, in sin, and dead (separated) from God. Jesus crucified our old self with Him, to separate us from the body of sin, so that we are no longer it's slave.

Verse 7

"for he who has died is freed from sin."

Have you died with Christ? If so, then you ARE free from sin.

“For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God” Colossians 3:3

“It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him”
2 Timothy 2:11


Verses 8-9

"Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him."

Jesus died to sin, and those of us who died with Christ are also dead to sin; However, we have also been made alive in Him, and death is no longer master over us.

Verses 10-11

"For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus."

Why must we consider this? Because we need to renew our minds with that which is true, as Paul has already proved we are indeed dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ!

Verses 12-13

"Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God."

So now, because you are "free from sin", it is ludicrous for you to allow sin to reign in your body by obeying it, rather than obeying righteousness by faith in Christ. Are you going to go back and undo all that Paul just explained from chapter 1 until now, and obey the Law for righteousness and once again declare yourself a sinner, thus obeying sin? Which is it? Are you going to go back and present the members of your body to a system that proves you a sinner, or are you going to present yourself to God as what you are... an instrument of righteousness? Are you in sin or in Christ? Are you dead or alive?

Verse 14

"For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace"

Sin has lost it's power in your life, not because you are obeying the Law, but because you have died to it through Christ's sacrifice, and you are now alive in the Spirit, by grace through righteousness.

Verse 15

“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!”

Again, Paul asks a rhetorical question, and once again he already knows the answer...

Verse 16

"Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?"

If you are going to live according to the Law, then you will be proved a sinner, and you will be a slave to sin, and the result is death. However, you can obey the gospel of faith alone in Christ, which results in righteousness, and be its slave.

Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
John 8:34

Verses 17-18

"But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."

What is the form of teaching? It is the gospel!! The gospel of Jesus Christ sets you free from sin, and makes you a slave of righteousness. You can no longer become a slave of sin, if you are in Christ Jesus.


Verse 19

"I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification."

Oh how the legalists love to pervert this verse perhaps it is their weak flesh, but Paul is trying to make a point about who you are going to serve; either the Law which results in proving your sin, or righteousness through faith in Christ which results in your sanctification (being set apart from death).

Here is where so many get confused, and why so many go astray from the truth. Presenting your members is not behavior modification through obedience to the Law, because if it is then Paul just contradicted his entire arguments from chapter 1 until now. No, Paul is showing us that we need to present our members to righteousness which comes by faith, rather than trying to gain God's favor with them through keeping the Law. "Walking in the flesh" is not "sinning", it is believing that God approves of you through the deeds of the flesh.

Verse 20

"For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness."

When we were in Adam... dead, and separated from the life of God, there was never a possibility of ever doing anything right. We were free from all righteousness.

Verse 21

"Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death."

All your works, deeds, etc. were pointless, and now that you are in Christ you can clearly see that your own efforts fell short of pleasing God, and it shames you to think that you could actually gain his favor through the Law. The only thing you could produce in Adam, was death.

Verse 22

"But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life."

Having concluded that in you there dwells no good thing, and that apart from God's righteousness you are without hope, you have come to Christ by faith, and have been set free from sin, where there is true benefit and true life!

Verse 23

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. "

Which will you choose? To live under a system that can only produce death, or to accept God's free gift of life?

 

[elected4ever]

Since you are not in the flesh then you should not have no fleshly desires, If you tell me you never lust never cuss steal never get angry.. do nothing pertaining to the flesh, then I would say you don't sin.
I never said our sins weren't covered though.

Ah, but the soul did not die at the new berth. Only the new spirit born of God was added. The soul, if it leaves the body the body dies. The soul must remain until physical death. There is a conflict set up between the soul and the spirit. The soul remains separated from God (dead to God) and the spirit has the life of God. God recognizes the life that he birthed and not the one that my earthly parents birthed. It is not that the soul does not sin it is that we are not the soul anymore. It is about who we are and not what the soul does. Salvation is life from the dead. I am not a sinner because I say so or anyone else says so but because God says so. The same is true with all God's children. Not just me.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Knight, quick question that I hope isn't too off topic....

What do you think Paul means when he says that we can still reap what we sow? If sin is not imputed how can someone sow and reap? What are they sowing and reaping? (I'm thinking of Galatians 6)

When you do sinful things you will reap the consequences.

1 Corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify.

In other words...
If you steal.... your sin is covered. But you will still feel guilt and most likely get arrested. Know what I mean?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Sorry, Knight, but on these verses, you fail miserably...

Ok, I respect your opinion. I disagree with your stance on this issue but you are certainly free to believe whatever you wish.

 

[elected4ever]

When you do sinful things you will reap the consequences.

1 Corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify.

In other words...
If you steal.... your sin is covered. But you will still feel guilt and most likely get arrested. Know what I mean?

If all things are lawful then what is sin?

 

[godrulz]

The fruit of what godrulz teaches is the result of teaching that Christians still sin.

Virtually every believer or scholar believes that Christians can sin. This does not make me a Satan worshipper does it? (non sequitur fallacy).

Cannot is not the same as WILL NOT. I do not teach that Christians should sin nor need to sin. We can have victory in Christ, but it is also possible to disobey God (have you read the Bible? Many saints have disobeyed God and were restored without losing their salvation).

 

[godrulz]

I wonder which one of you looks more credible and compelling to those reading this thread?

Sozo, you do not demonstrate any self-control. You ruin your own arguments with your bizarre and childish out-bursts. You should pray for the fruit of the Spirit.

If what he says was true, I would support his right to say it. I am more concerned about his content than his lunacy.

 

[Benjamin]

To the two of you.... (whom I respect greatly):
- Because of Christ's work on the cross we who are in Christ are dead to sin (as in immune).
- Christian's are still warned to not sin, yet many/most/all still do sin.
- That sin is not imputed to the Christian (because of their identity in Christ).

If your teaching that a Christian can get saved and then go live prodigal then you are Biblically WRONG. Do you believe this? OSAS? (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34535)

 

[godrulz]

If your teaching that a Christian can get saved and then go live propdigal then you are Biblically WRONG. Do you believe this? OSAS? (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34535)

The sin of unbelief is the fatal sin that can sever our relationship with Christ. Sins like the Corinthians committed brought discipline, but not necessarily loss of salvation unless they denied Christ and His finished work (see Heb. 6:4-6 for that context).

 

[Benjamin]

The sin of unbelief is the fatal sin that can sever our relationship with Christ. Sins like the Corinthians committed brought discipline, but not necessarily loss of salvation unless they denied Christ and His finished work (see Heb. 6:4-6 for that context).

Hebrew 6:4-6 = a poweful verse.

The fatal sin can also be rejecting the pull of the Holy Spirit within a believer and instead living in sin.

Do you believe the Bible?

Luke 15:12
And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me.’ So he divided to them his livelihood.

Who is the Father here? It is God the Father, thus this "son" is a believer at this time.

Luke 15:13
And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living.

He decided to follow this world (1 John 2:15- bad idea).

Luke 15:21
And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

This person who was already a son realized he had fallen away from God- he repented. God the Father recieved His son back upon repentance.

Luke 15:32
It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.

God received this son back with such joy- because he was literally "dead" and "lost". This word "dead" is the same one used to refer to the "second death" of Rev 21:8. I would like to piont out that He is "alive AGAIN"- this is a picture of a born again believer who was headed to hell and decoded to "walk according to the Spirit" again with his life (see Romans 8:14/ 2 Cor 12:21).

 

[elected4ever]

Virtually every believer or scholar believes that Christians can sin. This does not make me a Satan worshipper does it? (non sequitur fallacy).

Cannot is not the same as WILL NOT. I do not teach that Christians should sin nor need to sin. We can have victory in Christ, but it is also possible to disobey God (have you read the Bible? Many saints have disobeyed God and were restored without losing their salvation).

A distinction without a difference. If I cannot sprout wings and fly then it is reasonable to believe that I will not sprout wings and fly. There is absolutely certainty that I will not because I cannot.

 

[elected4ever]

Do you believe the Bible?

it is apparent that you do not.

 

[Sozo]

1Corinthians 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.[/INDENT]

The parts that you put in bold are a commentary from Paul as to why those who are "one spirit" with Christ should flee sexual immorality.

All of those who are in Christ are on the same level. It makes no sense to do those things that the world does to one another, because we are all one body, with one purpose, We have nothing to gain from hurting or using those in the body. That is the context of this chapter. Paul starts out about how ridiculous it is to go to court against your own body.

He then explains what happens to those who are outside the body...

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

The unrighteous (those who are not in the body) will not inherit the kingdom of God. Paul does not want us to participate in the same behaviors that those who are outside the body participate in because we have been made righteous and are all members of the same body.

Paul continues...

"And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."

Those who are in the body have been cleansed by His blood (washed), set apart unto God and apart from the world (sanctified), and made righteous (justified) in our identification with Christ through the Spirit. We no longer identify with the world, and it makes no sense to particpate in their deeds.

Paul tells us why...

"All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything."

Even though it was for freedom that Christ set us free, and we are free indeed, not all things that we do are profitable. Doing things that are harmful to others or to our own bodies is not profitable. We are all one body in Christ, and why would we do anything that hurts our own body?

"Food is for the stomach, and the stomach is for food; but God will do away with both of them. Yet the body is not for immorality, but for the Lord; and the Lord is for the body."

The body has a purpose, but immorality is not it. We are to set apart (sanctify) our bodies unto God to be used for His purposes. We are to serve one another in the Body, not just serve ourselves.

"Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? May it never be! Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a harlot is one body with her? For He says, "The two will become one flesh."

Paul explains that our bodies belong to God, and that he would not take our bodies to join them to a harlot. In other words as he says in another passage... "What fellowship has light with darkness". Why would we use our bodies for a purpose that is contrary to God's purpose for the use of the body. We are members of Christ's body, and have no part with the world.

"But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. Flee immorality."

We are "one spirit" with the lord. We have been placed out of the world and into the kingdom of God. We are in His body, and He is in us. Therefore, flee immorality! Don't do those things that the world does, because you are not of the world. Why? Becuase this is what it means when the world is immoral...

"Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body."

Again, Paul comments on those who are in the world when they sin outside and against their own body. The sexually immoral man sins against his own body. He corrupts himself. Paul does not want those in the Body of Christ to do those things that would corrupt the Body of Christ .He is not in any way saying that those who are in the Body are sinning, but simply showing what happens when someone who is not in the Body sins.

All unrighteousness is sin, and we just read that the Body is not unrighteous, but righteous. Otherwise, if someone in the Body was sexually immoral (which was taking place in Corinth, among believers), then they would not inherit the kingdom of God, but Paul is not saying that. He is just giving them an understanding as to why they should no longer participate in the deeds that the world does. The world sins against it's own body, don't do what you have been set apart (sanctified) from.

"Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body."

Sound advice.

 

[Lighthouse]

If you like I will answer this same question about nine more times.

Christians are no longer under the law (the mosaic law).

However, Christians can still sin because sin has a broader and well understood definition (doing something wrong) that both you and Sozo fail to acknowledge. Until you do, you will forever be banging your head against the wall fighting a losing battle that has ZERO pay-off.

First, the link Sozo provided only goes to his post. So could you provide a link to the response, please.

Secondly, I asked again because there had been too many posts since the last time I asked, and I didn't have time to search them all.

I have a second question: Are Christians righteous, or unrighteous?

 

[Lighthouse]

I think he is spot on!

When you, Lighthouse, and e4e acknowledge that the fleshy part of a Christian can indeed sin you concede the debate that a Christian can indeed sin.

The concession is that the flesh sins. But a Christian is not in the flesh, so it still stands that Christian do not/cannot sin.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I have a second question: Are Christians righteous, or unrighteous?

A Christian's standing with God is righteous but they often do unrighteous things.

Do you disagree with that?

 

[godrulz]

The concession is that the flesh sins. But a Christian is not in the flesh, so it still stands that Christian do not/cannot sin.

The person sins by yielding to the flesh. Flesh is not a person that can sin independently of the will of the whole person. Flesh is a metaphor for sin, not a personal being indwelling another personal being like demon possession or the Holy Spirit in the believer. Even the Spirit in the believer does not make them do things like a sock puppet. It is a love relationship, not a controlling robotic thing.

Your circular logic is flawed. A Christian either yields to bodily appetites like lust and gluttony (sins) or they yield to the Spirit in obedience (self-control, holy living, etc. 2 Cor. 7:2; I Peter 1:13-16; Rom. 6 have a volitional, manward element without making a big doctrine from Paul's simple analogy of spirit contrasting flesh...if Paul personified flesh in one verse, it does not contradict a literal reading of the bulk of other verses...it only contradicts your understanding of his use of flesh vs spirit).

 

[godrulz]

A Christian's standing with God is righteous but they often do unrighteous things.

Do you disagree with that?

One cannot divorce standing and theory from reality and practice. A person stands righteous in Christ, but each individual act or choice may be vice or virtue (whether a believer fornicates or an unbeliever does the exact same thing, in both cases it is sin and needs to be dealt with God's way...confession, repentance, and renewed obedience). One choice does not make a whole person or their position, except the ultimate choice to love God and jettison godless selfishness at conversion.

 

[Lighthouse]

No, Paul is not a liar. Paul says that it is not him and he is right. He is identifying himself with Christ.

Let's look closer at that verse Sozo. Just by mentioning it, even though he identifies himself with Christ, still says his flesh committed the act. His flesh is dead. Absolutely, categorically dead on right. But it is still his. And just mentioning it proves it.

And Sozo is saying the exact same thing. If you paid close enough attention, you would see that. Of course maybe it's just that Sozo doesn't always explain himself very well. But, that's why we're here [in this thread].