ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.

[elected4ever]

I think he is spot on!

When you, Lighthouse, and e4e acknowledge that the fleshy part of a Christian can indeed sin you concede the debate that a Christian can indeed sin.

All that has been conceded, Knight, is that you identify in the flesh and as such you do in fact sin. I have no argument with you. After all it is you who does it, right.

John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. :cheers:

 

[Sozo]

"We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him and the evil one does not touch him"

1 John 5:18

"For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with (destroyed), that we should no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin".

Romans 6:5-7

Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

John 8:34


"For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God."

Colossians 3:3

"Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
1 John 3:6-9

1. He who has died is free from sin.

2. Christians have died and their life is hidden in Christ.

3. No one who is in Christ sins.

4. No one who is born of God sins.

5. The one who commits sin is of the devil and a slave of sin.

Matthew 7:23

"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

It says… He never knew them!

They never were Christians! Christians cannot work iniquity or practice lawlessness!!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

"We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him and the evil one does not touch him"

1 John 5:18

"For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with (destroyed), that we should no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin".

Romans 6:5-7

Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

John 8:34


"For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God."

Colossians 3:3

"Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
1 John 3:6-9

1. He who has died is free from sin.

2. Christians have died and their life is hidden in Christ.

3. No one who is in Christ sins.

4. No one who is born of God sins.

5. The one who commits sin is of the devil and a slave of sin.

Matthew 7:23

"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

It says… He never knew them!

They never were Christians! Christians cannot work iniquity or practice lawlessness!!

Maybe if you squint your eyes REALLY tight the verses I keep posting for you will just go away. :chuckle:

Sozo... everything you are posting is stuff I agree with. Yet you fail to recognize that the word sin has a broader more generally and very acceptable definition.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

All that has been conceded, Knight, is that you identify in the flesh and as such you do in fact sin. I have no argument with you. After all it is you who does it, right.

John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. :cheers:

1 Corinthians 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.​

Clearly Paul acknowledges the broader definition and understanding of the word sin.

 

[Poly]

All that has been conceded, Knight, is that you identify in the flesh and as such you do in fact sin. I have no argument with you. After all it is you who does it, right.

You're real close to crossing the line between showing another person where you feel they are missing the mark and being misleading about what another person claims in a desperate attempt to uphold an argument.

Please show us where Knight claims that he identifies with the flesh.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ;it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

In the above verse who does Paul say now lives in the flesh?

And must this person be identified by this flesh simply becaue he must now live in it or is there an explanation of how, through faith, one doesn't have to be identified with it even though he now lives in it?

 

[Sozo]

Sozo... everything you are posting is stuff I agree with.

If you did, you would not agree with someone who just said otherwise.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

If you did, you would not agree with someone who just said otherwise.

No, I just happen to recognize that the word sin has a broader and more general definition.

It's really very simple.

 

[elected4ever]

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ;it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Where do you suppose the life of Christ is. It is in the body. Paul oh so clearly states,"it is no longer I who live," It is not the flesh that lives. It is Christ in me that lives, "Christ lives in me". It is Christ life. it is a message that I have been giving for years now. The only question is then, CAN CHRIST SIN?. You should quote that to Knight, not me. He is the one that does not believe it and holds onto sin as if it is his last vaster in this world and does not wont to lose it before his body and sole actually dies. If he sins, he is dead. If he is in Christ, he lives. Death has no part in life.

Knight says that he can and does sin and i just took his word for it. I know who he is but he apparently does not.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Where do you suppose the life of Christ is. It is in the body. Paul oh so clearly states,"it is no longer I who live," It is not the flesh that lives. It is Christ in me that lives, "Christ lives in me". It is Christ life. it is a message that I have been giving for years now. The only question is then, CAN CHRIST SIN?. You should quote that to Knight, not me. He is the one that does not believe it and holds onto sin as if it is his last vaster in this world and does not wont to lose it before his body and sole actually dies. If he sins, he is dead. If he is in Christ, he lives. Death has no part in life.

Knight says that he can and does sin and i just took his word for it. I know who he is but he apparently does not.

e4e why do you suppose Paul didn't use the word sin so strictly as you claim we all should?

 

[Poly]

Where do you suppose the life of Christ is. It is in the body. Paul oh so clearly states,"it is no longer I who live," It is not the flesh that lives. It is Christ in me that lives, "Christ lives in me". It is Christ life. it is a message that I have been giving for years now. The only question is then, CAN CHRIST SIN?. You should quote that to Knight, not me. He is the one that does not believe it and holds onto sin as if it is his last vaster in this world and does not wont to lose it before his body and sole actually dies. If he sins, he is dead. If he is in Christ, he lives. Death has no part in life.

Knight says that he can and does sin and i just took his word for it. I know who he is but he apparently does not.

So you get to ignore my post yet expect me to respond to yours? Why is that fair?

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ;it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

e4e, in the above verse who does Paul say now lives in the flesh? And must this person, whom Paul says is the one who now lives in the flesh be identified by this flesh?

 

[elected4ever]

So you get to ignore my post yet expect me to respond to yours? Why is that fair?

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ;it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

e4e, in the above verse who does Paul say now lives in the flesh? And must this person, whom Paul says is the one who now lives in the flesh be identified by this flesh?

Poly, your question has been addressed in my answer to you. Did you not read it? Here is the answer just in case you missed it, It is not the flesh that lives. It is Christ in me that lives, "Christ lives in me" I did not ignore your post, I addressed it specifically. The life that is now in the flesh is of the faith "of" the Son of God and not of the flesh.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 ¶And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[Poly]

The life that is now in the flesh is of the faith "of" the Son of God and not of the flesh.

Wow, we are so in agreement here but you'd dare not admit it for the sake of making sure that you stay in disagreement no matter what.

"The life that is now in the flesh..." We have a life right now made up of spirit and of flesh and because we still live in an imperfect world, no matter what our spirit desires (which, thanks be to God, is really all that counts as far as Christians are concerned), unfortunately, we have to put up with what the flesh desires as well. So which do we identify with? The part of us that desires to please the flesh which will exist with us until the day that we no longer live in a fallen and imperfect world or with the Spirit which desires to please God, regardless of the fallen world we live in and longs to live righteously.

We can be totally indentified with the latter despite this fallen world.

Thanks be to God that what our flesh desires, and the harm, shame and everything that goes against God which comes about by carrying out these desires is not and never ever ever ever will be held against us because we do not identify ourselves with that part of us but rather with the spirit which is now renewed with Christ.

 

[godrulz]

Excellent point! :up:

A very wise man recently made a similar analogy about a person with diplomatic immunity. A foreign dignitary (by law) is not under our laws (in the USA). And therefore a foreign dignitary can do things in our country that are against our laws but not against the laws in his country. The dignitary is still committing a crime, yet since he has diplomatic immunity no crime is imputed to him.

Likewise Christians have immunity to sin through Christ's work on the cross.

Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

I think this verse talks about initial justification. It seems your view would open the door for believer's to persist in sin and presume on grace and automatic forgiveness regardless of how ungodly and lawless they become. God judges reality, not theory.

 

[godrulz]

Then Paul is a liar, because Paul said that it is not him that does it.

Your interpretation and understanding of this analogy is flawed. This makes you wrong. It does not make Paul or Knight a liar.

We must interpret this passage in light of other passages that explicitly make the person, not a personification or metaphor responsible for sin. Until you see that obedience/disobedience/rebellion/selfishness/lawlessness/SIN involves will/volition, you will continue to be confused by your metaphysical sin as substance theories. We have one will, not two competing wills as people in the image of God, recreated in the image of Christ. Paul is clear that our one will yields to bodily desires (flesh) or to the things of the Spirit (spirit) Rom. 6-8; Galatians). The will, not a nebulous 'flesh' thing, is causative for choices (hence why the person is responsible and cannot blame Adam, Satan, or the so-called flesh).

 

[Sozo]

You are a pervert of the gospel, godrulz.

You're Satanic tactics are tiresome.

Get saved, or get lost (I mean from TOL; you are already lost)

 

[Sozo]

The fruit of what godrulz teaches is the result of teaching that Christians still sin.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I think this verse talks about initial justification. It seems your view would open the door for believer's to persist in sin and presume on grace and automatic forgiveness regardless of how ungodly and lawless they become. God judges reality, not theory.

I have been saving the following for Sozo but you have forced my hand (in a different way from Sozo).

Your disagreement isn't with me it's with the Apostle Paul as he addresses this very thing....

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin [ Sozo take note "shall we" ] that grace may abound? [ godrulz take note it isn't a theory, it's reality ]2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? [ Sozo take note, we are dead to sin but we shouldn't live sinfully ] 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should [ Sozo take note "we should" ] walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. [ godrulz take note "no longer slaves of sin" ] 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. [ godrulz take note "freed from sin" is very clear ] 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. [ Sozo take note "dominion", sin doesn't have "dominion" but Paul is clearly making the point that we still have the ability to sin ] 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, [ godrulz take note "dead to sin" ] but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign [ Sozo take note "do not let sin reign", don't let sin "reign"! ] in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. [ Sozo take note "should" clearly we are capable of sin yet freed as in immune ]​

It's funny.... the above verses refute both godrulz and Sozo yet for completely opposite reasons.

To the two of you.... (whom I respect greatly):
- Because of Christ's work on the cross we who are in Christ are dead to sin (as in immune).
- Christian's are still warned to not sin, yet many/most/all still do sin.
- That sin is not imputed to the Christian (because of their identity in Christ).

 

[Nathon Detroit]

You are a pervert of the gospel, godrulz.

You're Satanic tactics are tiresome.

Get saved, or get lost (I mean from TOL; you are already lost)

I wonder which one of you looks more credible and compelling to those reading this thread?

Sozo, you do not demonstrate any self-control. You ruin your own arguments with your bizarre and childish out-bursts. You should pray for the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

The fruit of what godrulz teaches is the result of teaching that Christians still sin.

Why do you suppose the apostle Paul disagreed with you?

Was Paul wrong? Or are you wrong?

 

[kmoney]

- Because of Christ's work on the cross we who are in Christ are dead to sin (as in immune).
- Christian's are still warned to not sin, yet many/most/all still do sin.
- That sin is not imputed to the Christian (because of their identity in Christ).

Knight, quick question that I hope isn't too off topic....

What do you think Paul means when he says that we can still reap what we sow? If sin is not imputed how can someone sow and reap? What are they sowing and reaping? (I'm thinking of Galatians 6)