ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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Sozo said:
There is a biblical way and an unbiblical way. Omniscience means that God knows all that is knowable. Exhaustive foreknowledge of future free will contingencies is an absurdity. The Open View differs as to the nature of the future (possible vs certain). It does not compromise omniscience, but differs as to possible objects of knowledge.
I strongly disagree with Open Veiw Theism. There is unlimited Scriptural evidence that God knows the future, and this is still not at all incompatable with the Scripturally supported truth of free will- nor does it conflict with a compassionate God when understood correctly.
Knight-
Can Christians transgress the law?
Can Christians transgress the law?
Benjamin said:
We have done so on a variety of threads.
A study of modal logic involves contingencies, necessities, certainties, etc.
If free will contingencies were totally known from eternity past, they would be certain and settled in advance. This would mean they are not free and contingent. Free will would be illusory, but exhaustive foreknowledge could be maintained (compatibilism is not defensible...free will is not compatible with predestination/exhaustive foreknowledge..incompatibilism).
The past, present, and future are different for God and us. The possible future (the future is not a thing nor is it there yet to know...to not know a nothing is not a limitation on omniscience) becomes the fixed past through the present. Only the present is actual (presentism).
A related issue is the nature of time and eternity. The traditional, Platonic, Augustinian concept is 'eternal now' simultaneity (eternalism). The biblical view is that God experiences an endless duration of time. Time is not a created thing. It is unidirectional. The future is not fixed like the past is.
Calvinism would say that God knows the future perfectly due to determinism and omnicausality.
Arminianism proposes simple foreknowledge. He just knows it because He is God. This begs the question and wrongly assumes that God can see the non-existent future as actual even before it moves from contingent (may or may not happen) to certain.
Open Theism accepts both motifs in Scripture at face value: God knows some of the future since He purposes to bring some aspects to pass by His ABILITY (not so-called foreknowledge...see Is. 46; 48... specific and should not be extrapolated to exhaustive control/knowledge). The other motif is that much of the future is open and unsettled. It is correctly known as such since God knows reality as it is.
God knows all that is knowable. Just as omnipotence means that He can do all that is doable (He cannot do logically contradictory things like create square circles or be created and uncreated as God), so omniscience means that He knows all that is knowable. He knows the past and present exhaustively because they are settled. He knows the future as possible, probable, or some things as certain (like the first and second coming of Christ...in His control, regardless of contingencies).
God is responsive, dynamic, creative. He is not omnicausal nor a meticulous control freak. If he was, then the future would be foreknown exhaustively. Because He sovereignly chose to create significant others with a say so, in order to have reciprocal love relationships, His knowledge became limited in some aspects relating to the future. This is not a problem for an omnicompetent God who can respond to any contingency and ultimately control what He wants to in order to bring about His general purposes. If the future was knowable and settled, He would know it as such. Since He chose to create a partially open future, He knows it as such.
Benjamin said:
You are proof texting one motif (some of the future is settled and known as such) while ignoring the other motif (God changes His mind..e.g. Hezekiah, etc. the future not settled). Closed theists must make the latter set of verses figurative or anthropomorphic to maintain a preconceived theology, without exegetical warrant.
rehcjam
Member
Is this what is wrong with Sozo, is that he thinks he cannot sin?
Is that why he can contradict himself, because he is perfect and can do no wrong?
Is that why he persists in his deluded thinking?
Does anyone here not know that Sozo still sins?
If anyone thinks they do not sin, he is a :dunce:.
You are confusing the imputation of sin with actual sin.
Is that why he can contradict himself, because he is perfect and can do no wrong?
Is that why he persists in his deluded thinking?
Does anyone here not know that Sozo still sins?
If anyone thinks they do not sin, he is a :dunce:.
You are confusing the imputation of sin with actual sin.
:thumb:Sozo said:
Read the link Sozo provided in his last post to me.rehcjam said:
I almost didn't agree with part of it, until I realized what Sozo was saying.
And then read my response.Lighthouse said:
(in the link provided)
Actually, Sozo would admit he still does things that would be called sin (if he weren't a Christian).rehcjam said:
Sozo argues that we can no longer call that type of stuff sin in relation to a Christian. In other words it's merely a call for a "name-change" for the word sin.
The problem is... God failed to tell His apostles about this "name-change".
If you like I will answer this same question about nine more times.Lighthouse said:
Christians are no longer under the law (the mosaic law).
However, Christians can still sin because sin has a broader and well understood definition (doing something wrong) that both you and Sozo fail to acknowledge. Until you do, you will forever be banging your head against the wall fighting a losing battle that has ZERO pay-off.
godrulz said:
Flaw: the fulfillment of many Biblical prophecies relies on people free-will decision...which God obviously forknew (Solomon Magnificant and Isaiah 60:10/ Theodore H. and Zionism/ etc etc).
Prov 16:9 "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps."
Men decide weather they want to work good or evil, we literally decide our way (towards God or towards materialism and ultimately the lake of fire)- but God directs our steps.
Proverbs 16:9 doesn't exist in a vacuum. Let's check it out....Benjamin said:
Prov. 16:9
A man’s heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.
A man’s heart plans his what?
A man’s heart plans his WAY,
can I get an AMEN???
A man’s heart plans his way,
Us men have our own heart - and our own will.... and we can plan our own way but if we rely of God He will direct our steps. If man had no will why would God have said... "A man’s heart plans his way,?
Lets drive home the point.....
Rewind to the beginning of Proverbs 16....
Proverbs 16:1The preparations of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD. 2 All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the spirits. 3 Commit your works to the LORD, And your thoughts will be established. 4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. 5 Everyone proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD; Though they join forces, none will go unpunished. 6 In mercy and truth Atonement is provided for iniquity; And by the fear of the LORD one departs from evil. 7 When a man’s ways please the LORD, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him. 8 Better is a little with righteousness, Than vast revenues without justice. 9 A man’s heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.
Again the entire chapter oozes man's ability to have his own intentions and his owns ways that might not be in line with God's will.
Lets dig deeper for more context...
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.
"lean not on your own understanding;" Our own understanding?????? How can we have our "own understanding" if we have no will of our own? And why does God go to the trouble of telling us to acknowledge Him so that He can direct our paths if we can't help but have Him direct our paths???
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.
QUESTION: When does He direct our paths???????
ANSWER: When we lean not on our own understandings and acknowledge Him in all of our ways.
The entire meaning of all these verses above is meaningless IF man has no ability to have his own understandings or willpower.
However all of this is "off-topic" there are literally DOZENS of threads on TOL that address this topic.