Brother Vinny
Active member
So, unlike Corrie Ten Boom, you'd turn Jews over to the Nazis to be killed rather than tell a lie. Is this what you're saying, Jaltus?
ARCHIVE: Telling a lie can be righteous!
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
So, unlike Corrie Ten Boom, you'd turn Jews over to the Nazis to be killed rather than tell a lie. Is this what you're saying, Jaltus?
Y
Yxboom
Guest
Based on PaulD's excellent observation of absolutes...if God is the standard of absolute and Scripture states that God can NOT lie.
Than Knight faces the problem of rectifying that God is the standard of absolutes, God can not lie and....
Y
Yxboom
Guest
Are you absolutely sure that is not a lie?
Huh????
Lying is not an absolute either way. It makes no difference whether God can or cannot lie.
If lying were absolutely wrong God would have been disappointed that the Hebrew midwives lied to the Egyptian King.
You see....... murder is absolutely wrong because by definition murder insinuates "evil intent". Lying is not absolutely wrong because lying does NOT insinuate "evil intent".
Some lies have good intent, other lies are down right necessary to avert evil, and yet other lies are indeed wrong. Therefore lying is NOT an absolute. To think otherwise defies all convention.
I have attempted to get him to answer this question several times now. Jaltus?
Last edited:
Col 3:9 does not state that lying is absolutely wrong. It simply states that as a general rule it is wrong to lie to one another. Which I of course agree with. If you should tell the truth than YOU SHOULD TELL THE TRUTH!!!!
However.. there are times when it would be EVIL to tell the truth.
And many examples have been given on this thread.
Brother Vinny
Active member
Knight's right.
In addition, one has to take into account just who God is. He doesn't lie partly because He doesn't have to. He wants to protect some people, He just makes them invulnerable, takes them to heaven, or any other number of ways.
We, as humans, have considerably more limited resources.
In addition, one has to take into account just who God is. He doesn't lie partly because He doesn't have to. He wants to protect some people, He just makes them invulnerable, takes them to heaven, or any other number of ways.
We, as humans, have considerably more limited resources.
Brother Vinny
Active member
Love-Master J gets to step forward to see if he's genuinely worthy of the title.
C'mon, Jaltus. I'm interested in your reply.
When I asked if God ever lied, mislead, or tricked anyone..
When I asked if God ever lied, mislead, or tricked anyone..
I was thinking of the following account found in 1Kings and in 2Chr. It is true that God does not lie in this account, but He does seem to seek to deceive King Ahab:
2Chr. 18:18-22 Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing on His right hand and His left. And the LORD said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab king of Israel to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ The LORD said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the LORD said, ‘You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.’ Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you.”
Anyone got a different take on this?
When I asked if God ever lied, mislead, or tricked anyone..
I was thinking of the following account found in 1Kings and in 2Chr. It is true that God does not lie in this account, but He does seem to seek to deceive King Ahab:
2Chr. 18:18-22 Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing on His right hand and His left. And the LORD said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab king of Israel to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ The LORD said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the LORD said, ‘You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.’ Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you.”
Anyone got a different take on this?
Goose
New member
God and Deception
I can recall a time in the bible where God did strange things to deceive or lie to His people's enemies. I can also recall where God struck people with blindess or even straight way killed someone, but those two are beside the point. Is this deception against the enemy similar to lying? Is God manifesting the truth? Think about what if you had a family of jews living in your attic during WWII in Nazi Germany. Suddenly, there's a knock at the door, and it's the German Police asking you if you're quartering jews. What do you respond with? Deception? Which answer is working righteousness?
Because it seems that God played an active role in his interaction with human kind. God didn't always play 'fair' in man's eyes. He protected and made provision for His chosen. His action is the truth. Righteous and judgemental. Our action, with the gift of grace and the Holy Spirit can work righteousness.
It seems to me, that the real question is whether you want to be active in doing what is right, or passive, by just letting things "play out".
I made a decision to actively live my life by Grace. I try my hardest to not be afraid to goof up. I pray that I may not live in fear and that one day I'll run instead of crawl.
I can recall a time in the bible where God did strange things to deceive or lie to His people's enemies. I can also recall where God struck people with blindess or even straight way killed someone, but those two are beside the point. Is this deception against the enemy similar to lying? Is God manifesting the truth? Think about what if you had a family of jews living in your attic during WWII in Nazi Germany. Suddenly, there's a knock at the door, and it's the German Police asking you if you're quartering jews. What do you respond with? Deception? Which answer is working righteousness?
Because it seems that God played an active role in his interaction with human kind. God didn't always play 'fair' in man's eyes. He protected and made provision for His chosen. His action is the truth. Righteous and judgemental. Our action, with the gift of grace and the Holy Spirit can work righteousness.
It seems to me, that the real question is whether you want to be active in doing what is right, or passive, by just letting things "play out".
I made a decision to actively live my life by Grace. I try my hardest to not be afraid to goof up. I pray that I may not live in fear and that one day I'll run instead of crawl.
Last edited:
Y
Yxboom
Guest
So far as PA has stated all the "examples" of lying has only proved to justify the actions of lying when a greater evil was present. It did not deem the lie righteous or holy.
Y
Yxboom
Guest
Knight used the argument against Zakath about raping and murdering a young girl....it was wrong. Even in the reversal of Zakath's argument that lest the man did so a bomb would detonate and kill millions. The act was STILL wrong but justified in the account of the greater evil....ergo Knight's point of absolute.
A sin can be justified when present and up against a greater sin but in no way makes the sin holy or righteous.
A sin can be justified when present and up against a greater sin but in no way makes the sin holy or righteous.
Again.... a lie is simply not telling the truth. Not telling the truth is morally neutral. A lies motivation makes it either sinful or not sinful.
Comparing a lie to murder or rape is a bad comparison because murder and rape are by their own definition NOT morally neutral yet morally wrong.
Y
Yxboom
Guest
Tit 1:2 KJV In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Is this not an absolute statement?
Can God rape and murder a young child? It makes a difference.
Y
Yxboom
Guest
Not eating pork is morally neutral. A man using the woman's restroom in a resturant is morally neutral. If lying were morally neutral than why classify lying among the acts of murdering, kidnapping and such...
1Ti 1:9-10 KJV Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, (10) For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
Unless lying nulls our moral rule and murder and kidnapping are also morally neutral.
Am I gonna have to spoon feed you this??
God doesn't lie - He doesn't need to. (although there is more to this topic as well).
Sometimes men NEED to lie! Most of the time lying is bad but there are many times when lying is good and even righteous.
There is no logical connection between God not lying and lying being being absolutely wrong for men (as you assert).
Y
Yxboom
Guest
Ergo....my followup post! Would you like me to supply the spoon or will the spoon be included in the subscriber fee?
Obviously this verse refers to lying in a wrongful way (i.e.; false witness) unless you think that this verse is referring to the Hebrew midwives as well?