ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[Philetus]

It is a very egocentric persuasion you have going there. We are not the center of God's universe and I would not at all be surprised if He had much more going on than you'd imagine. I do not believe we are the center of God's universe nor that we have even a significant percentage of His revelation and being. Clete once said it is like .001% for tradition and like 50% for OV. I never took it as a slight but I considered both his numbers way too high. When my logic stops, He is infinite. I really don't believe I could compare #'s to those kinds of considerations.

You are constraining an infinite future with your logical constraints. God's plans are infinite.

Your constant appeal to your own ignorance may after all be your strongest argument. But, it isn't persuasive in the least.

While I most certainly would not argue that God has no more than I can imagine 'going on', neither would I argue that God has everything I can imagine 'going on'. Square circles; two actual dates for the second coming? I don't think so. The point of my argument is that once God determines a given, other possibilities are ruled out. That leaves LESS than an infinite number of possibilities regardless what percentage of what God has 'going on' is revealed. .001% or 50% of all God has going on ... it makes no difference whether you think the numbers are high or low.

If God determined He would destroy a city and God's determination was 'truly true' He could not then allow the city to continue to exist. One precludes the other. They can't both be real possibilities. God can't 'plan' to do both. If however God only threatened to destroy a city and later for what ever reason did not, then both possibilities continue to present themselves as long as the city stands.

God cannot firmly set the date for the second coming for both December 29, 2007 AND July 4, 2776. He can leave the date open and still determine that Christ will surely return at some point in the future. The day will surely come, because (in spite of AMR's knothole-narrow-mindedness and Lee’s endless effort to look through the knothole with both eyes) God is absolutely trustworthy. Quit appealing to your ignorance. You are not making God greater by besmirching yourself and all those created in His image with false humility. God has given you a good mind. You even have the ill gotten knowledge of good and evil and though that doesn’t make you infinitely wise it makes you to a great extent very capable of grasping the things God has revealed. God is infinite whether you have a double digit IQ or not. However, God's plans cannot be infinite and you know it. The question is: Are you humble enough to admit it?

Philetus

 

[Philetus]

Well fine, if that is what you mean by closed, I get the impression that people object to a future with no real choices in it, when they say "closed future."


Blessings,
Lee

No, Lee, my parody was illustrative of how you seem to see Open Theism.

 

[Philetus]

Lon,

You'll never understand OVT until you drop your straw man impression.

Muz

None is so blind as he who WILL not see.

We do not see His future knowledge as merely predictive but known.
You will have them the way God says.
Your own choice and inclination is known before it happens.
Simple and/or EDF is a reality.
You are constraining an infinite future with your logical constraints.
When my logic stops, He is infinite.

How big is infinite?
My infinite is bigger than yours.
Is not.
Is too.
Is not.
Is too.
Is not.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Is too.
Is not.
My infinite is bigger than yours because I'm smaller than you.
.
.
.
Are not.
.
.
.
.
Then the end ... the second coming ... AKA in scientific circles as the OBB (Other Big Bang) but only smaller.

Philetus

 

[Yorzhik]

God is sitting across from you at the kitchen table. He uses His knowledge of His decreetive will and tells you if you will have your palms up or down in 10 seconds. Will you have your palms the way God says? Could you put your palms the other way if you so chose?

You will have them the way God says.

The second question is mute. Your own choice and inclination is known before it happens.

Your choice to have them opposite of what God says is a valid choice. It is also contrary to your first assertion. That is evidence your first assertion is wrong. Do you have any reason to believe, beyond that it is your assertion, that what you said is correct?

Yorzhik has evidence, and Lon has "what Lon believes". Who's right?

 

[Lon]

Your choice to have them opposite of what God says is a valid choice. It is also contrary to your first assertion. That is evidence your first assertion is wrong. Do you have any reason to believe, beyond that it is your assertion, that what you said is correct?

Yorzhik has evidence, and Lon has "what Lon believes". Who's right?

:think:
"Before the rooster crows...."

"His name will be Josiah, and he will put to death all the priests of Baal...."

And on and on and on...

:think:

None is so blind as he who WILL not see.
Philetus

Get your digs in, it means nothing and you've said nothing. "Say anything, but say something." (your quote )

 

[Lon]

God has given you a good mind. You even have the ill gotten knowledge of good and evil and though that doesn’t make you infinitely wise it makes you to a great extent very capable of grasping the things God has revealed. God is infinite whether you have a double digit IQ or not. However, God's plans cannot be infinite and you know it. The question is: Are you humble enough to admit it?

Philetus

Double digit IQ? Your words are kind, it isn't false humility but a suspicion that God is much much more than we grasp. I have no problem seeing my intelligence for what it is, but in the grand scheme of things, He is God and I am not even close.

God's plans must be infinite, for He is infinite without beginning or end.

Think of it in these terms: God never has had a beginning. This should tell you that God's thoughts are infinite in the past where there is no beginning and your logic is wrong. I'm humble enough to admit my limitation and when I am wrong. How about you? Don't you see that God's plans must be infinite? We don't even have to consider future at this point: God who is infinite must have plans unending.

 

[Lon]

Sorry, almost missed this as your reply was 11 days after the post.

Your response doesn't follow mine. We have a record of God's prophecies. They didn't all come to pass.

I disagree. Every prophecy must come to pass. There is no prophecy that didn't.
Remember I differentiate unconditional prophecy as different than what God told Jonah to speak concerning Nineveh (conditional).

Rejection of what? But isn't it obvious that God would prefer that greater than a remanent be saved than just a remanent? Doesn't the bible as a whole show you that God would rather people be saved than to have His prophecies come to pass?

"The road is narrow and few are those who travel by it..." I don't believe there is a contradiction. It isn't what God would rather do, or He'd do it. We either reject God's statements or must come to a biblical understanding.

"The point is that EDF hasn't been misproven here and prophecy points to God's knowledge.". Well, on just a philosophical level it has. And on a biblical level it has because of prophecy as one of the strong reasons. But like I said, you don't have to answer the philosophical questions.

I'm not quite following you here. I have not seen EDF disproved. Can you elucidate just once more in hopes I will understand what the nail in the coffin was? I'm not seeing EDF dismissed philosophically.

I'm showing you how this isn't true. Maybe you are willing to dabble in philosophy just to find out.

Go for it, I'm interested.

First, God does "think better", as demonstrated in scripture over and over.

Second, if 10 didn't work, He would do 11. Why would that matter?

There are instances of God 'thinking better' of giving future prophetic statements? Where?

Exo 11:1 The LORD said to Moses, "I will bring one more plague on Pharaoh and on Egypt; after that he will release you from this place. When he releases you, he will drive you out completely from this place.

Like if God says "surely I will drive them out" in no uncertain terms like that? or "40 days and Nineveh will be destroyed" in no uncertain terms like that?

Deuteronomy 18:21

"I don't think you can." What? What kind of silly talk is that? I do it all the time. Don't be stupid an say I claimed to do miracles. I said I could persuade people. And with the power to, let's say, stop someone from walking temporarily like they do in the mafia, I could persuade people even more! Even enough to persuade them to name their child a certain name.

It has nothing to do with miracle. I'm saying I don't think you could change someone's mind once they've determined to name their child. You couldn't have convinced me to change the names my wife and I chose for our children.

Ah, no. When God says He would overthrow Nineveh you don't rewrite scripture like Lee does, do you? Just how do you interpret that scripture?

By Clete and Patman's scriptures (Ezekiel and Jeremiah). God said if a people repented, He'd not bring the calamity. Nineveh repented according to God's condition. They were not destroyed because they aligned with the condition of repentance. Nineveh's prophecy was conditional.

 

[lee_merrill]

Yes, of course. In fact, He promises to break His promises in Jer. 18.

So he does speak and then not act, he does promise and not fulfill?

"Truly truly the New England Patriots will go undefeated this season."

So the statement is sure, right?

No, it's not sure, Tom Brady and half his team might all decide to become monks in the Western Sahara tomorrow, causing the team to go into a nose dive. And the point is that the phrase "truly, truly" meant that what followed was certainly true, was sure in the sense of being certain. This would not be said about a probable event, but a certain one.

I see "I will surely drive them out" above... and it was a word the Lord spoke... and God did not drive them out.

Deuteronomy 18:22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken.

So that is a word the Lord did not speak, and OVT leads us to an open contradiction.

And it was not therefore lying to say "I will surely do this," knowing it might not be sure?

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

God is apparently rather like us in this way, that he does sometimes assert as quite true what he knows may be false, he may change his mind, he does speak and then not act, at times he promises, and does not fulfill.

God is sitting across from you at the kitchen table. He uses His knowledge of His decretive will and tells you if you will have your palms up or down in 10 seconds. Will you have your palms the way God says? Could you put your palms the other way if you so chose?

Not if God says you will do this, remember Peter, being told he would deny the Lord, and Peter tried his best not to do it, and still he did just what the Lord said he would do.

Matthew 26:35 But Peter declared, "Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you." And all the other disciples said the same.

What happened to the omnicompetent God of Open Theism? As always, the Open Theist view of God has "omnicompetent" meaning he is able to bring any matter to pass, Boyd's victorious chess master, except when he's not able--God is invincible, except of course, when he fails?

So, when I answer God is smart, it could mean that God is so smart he knows the future exhaustively, or it could mean God is smart enough to tell the future without exhaustive forknowledge. So I asked for clarification and didn't receive it.

I would think the clarification we need is from the Open View, does "God is smart" mean he knows with certainty, or that instead he has a very good estimate? Probably both, sometimes according to OVT he knows, and sometimes not--

And so events in the future are unknowable, except when we know they will happen?

Blessings,
Lee

 

[lee_merrill]

And I'm still wondering how God knows only a remnant will be saved, and afterwards, "all Israel will be saved."

 

[godrulz]

OT believes God is omniscient and omnipotent. We differ as to what we believe are possible objects of certain vs possible (contingencies) knowledge. The issue is the type of creation God actualized (non-deterministic), not whether He knows everything (He does...the future is corrrectly known as possible until it becomes actual).

 

[Yorzhik]

:think:
"Before the rooster crows...."

"His name will be Josiah, and he will put to death all the priests of Baal...."

And on and on and on...

:think:

So you aren't going to even address your contradiction?

"Your choice to have them opposite of what God says is a valid choice. It is also contrary to your first assertion."

I suppose you could try to explain how choosing to put your palms up instead of down, or visa versa, is not a valid choice.

 

[Philetus]

Double digit IQ? Your words are kind, it isn't false humility but a suspicion that God is much much more than we grasp. I have no problem seeing my intelligence for what it is, but in the grand scheme of things, He is God and I am not even close.

Nobody is arguing otherwise.

It isn't a suspicion ... its a fact! God IS much much more than we grasp. So why reduce God to an unmoved mover with infinite plans. God is alive, dynamic and relational. GOD THINKS! GOD ACTS!

Double digit IQ? (Yeah, like presidential candidates should be required to have a measurable IQ of at least 10+ to qualify for office. :think: I told you early on, don't personalize everything. 'You' is generic unless 'you' are named. Take the compliment, Lon: you have a good mind. Use it.)​

God's plans must be infinite, for He is infinite without beginning or end.

Think of it in these terms: God never has had a beginning. This should tell you that God's thoughts are infinite in the past where there is no beginning and your logic is wrong. I'm humble enough to admit my limitation and when I am wrong. How about you? Don't you see that God's plans must be infinite? We don't even have to consider future at this point: God who is infinite must have plans unending.

Does God always act on His unending plans? Are you sure you want to put that on God? Remember, Lee is reading. :sigh:

No, I don't buy into your (Lon's) perceptions of reality or of God. That doesn't make either of us humble or arrogant. Just different. God is infinite; His plans are not. Neither are His actions.

God's plans became a finite set when He stopped planning and forever closed the future (according to the settled view). You can only claim God has infinite plans if God never had an original thought (a first plan to act) or is still making plans. You, Lon, have already stated that God never had a first (beginning) plan, but you also argue (by inference) that God has stopped planning and closed the future by settling every past, present and future action as already known. That's finite anyway you spell it. The absurdity of God knowing an infinite number of plans in the past as settled should give us pause. Does God know His own mind? I believe so. Otherwise, God is still stuck in the past making plans that presently are already settled. Talk about good intentions. :dizzy:

Are you claiming God has two sets of blueprints (or an infinite number) for His creation? If you are claiming an infinite number of discarded, never materialized plans then I’ll grant that God has or is still making plans that God will never act upon and we are back to an open future. (Pay attention, Lee. Two birds with a single stone. God plans and doesn’t act.) Has God already fashioned an infinite number of plans? … Created an infinite number of universes already in parallel existence? Then God can’t make just one more? If God can make just one more then the future is still open.

I also believe God is infinite; from everlasting to everlasting. I also believe God actually thinks (plans) before He acts and that God doesn't always act on His first plan because contingencies exist in created, thinking, acting beings other than God: us. If God is thinking and still making plans and/or adjusting those plans then the future remains open to some degree.


So if God is able to make new plans and do new things while not doing other things then welcome to Open Theism!

.... Plato, Augustine and Calvin drop points on their IQ scores.

Philetus


I want to accuse you of confusing 'plans' with 'possibilities', but this is fun and that would be to easy.

 

[Philetus]

And I'm still wondering how God knows only a remnant will be saved, and afterwards, "all Israel will be saved."

Keep wondering, Lee. You will figure it out.

 

[lee_merrill]

OT believes God is omniscient and omnipotent. We differ as to what we believe are possible objects of certain vs possible (contingencies) knowledge. The issue is the type of creation God actualized (non-deterministic), not whether He knows everything (He does...the future is correctly known as possible until it becomes actual).

Well, yes, now the problem is not the conclusion per se, but with the implications from that conclusion.

Keep wondering, Lee. You will figure it out.

No problem, I believe God does not speak and then not act, nor promise and not fulfill, for all is under his complete control, and he knows the future. When he says an event is sure, it's sure.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Yorzhik]

So he does speak and then not act, he does promise and not fulfill?

Of course. If God speaks to bless a nation, and they rebel, then God will not act on that blessing. If God promises to destroy a nation and they repent, then God is not obligated to fulfill that promise.

No, it's not sure, Tom Brady and half his team might all decide to become monks in the Western Sahara tomorrow, causing the team to go into a nose dive. And the point is that the phrase "truly, truly" meant that what followed was certainly true, was sure in the sense of being certain. This would not be said about a probable event, but a certain one.

I know. I used the words "truly, truly", doesn't that make it certain? According to your criteria it does.

Deuteronomy 18:22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken.

So that is a word the Lord did not speak, and OVT leads us to an open contradiction.

And it was not therefore lying to say "I will surely do this," knowing it might not be sure?

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

God is apparently rather like us in this way, that he does sometimes assert as quite true what he knows may be false, he may change his mind, he does speak and then not act, at times he promises, and does not fulfill.

That's the point. It's what God expects to be true when He says something. A lie is when someone says something knowing, for sure, that it is not or will not be true. It isn't a lie, just like my prediction of how the Patriots will do this season, until one makes the prediction knowing the outcome exhaustively, or if one makes the prediction *after* knowing the truth. Only the settle view holds the position (i.e. Nineveh or Hezekiah) that God knows something isn't true, for sure, and says it anyway.

God is sitting across from you at the kitchen table. He uses His knowledge of His decretive will and tells you if you will have your palms up or down in 10 seconds. Will you have your palms the way God says? Could you put your palms the other way if you so chose?

Not if God says you will do this, remember Peter, being told he would deny the Lord, and Peter tried his best not to do it, and still he did just what the Lord said he would do.

Matthew 26:35 But Peter declared, "Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you." And all the other disciples said the same.

So if just knowing the future exhaustively doesn't cause a particular future action, then what would cause you to put your palms the way God says? Physical force? If not physical force, then if I will to put my palms the opposite of whatever God says, is my will overridden such that I won't want to put my palms opposite of whatever God says? Or are humans not capable of determining to will their palms the opposite of whatever God says?

lee_merrill continues:

What happened to the omnicompetent God of Open Theism? As always, the Open Theist view of God has "omnicompetent" meaning he is able to bring any matter to pass, Boyd's victorious chess master, except when he's not able--God is invincible, except of course, when he fails?

The omnicompetent God of OV cannot do everything. He cannot do the logically contradictory, including the logical contradiction of going against His own nature. Everything you've brought up so far that you accuse the OV God of being too weak to do has been a logical contradiction. The SV God, on the other hand, repeatedly does the logically contradictory. Would you be willing to admit that God (according to the SV) can do the logically contradictory?

I would think the clarification we need is from the Open View, does "God is smart" mean he knows with certainty, or that instead he has a very good estimate? Probably both, sometimes according to OVT he knows, and sometimes not--

And so events in the future are unknowable, except when we know they will happen?

Blessings,
Lee

Yes, God is smart means He has a very good estimate. There are some things that are known for certain because God will do them regardless of whatever the will of man is.

To say it another way: all events that depend on the will of man are uncertain to greater or lesser degrees, and likewise, all events where the will of man is irrelavant and said events depend only on the will of God are exhaustively certain.

 

[Yorzhik]

And I'm still wondering how God knows only a remnant will be saved, and afterwards, "all Israel will be saved."

The same way I know I'm going to still love my wife tomorrow. And all Israel will be saved in the same way all Israel came to be baptised by John the Baptist.

 

[Lon]

Nobody is arguing otherwise.

It isn't a suspicion ... its a fact! God IS much much more than we grasp. So why reduce God to an unmoved mover with infinite plans. God is alive, dynamic and relational. GOD THINKS! GOD ACTS!

Well, I didn't want to speak out of turn for you

Double digit IQ? (Yeah, like presidential candidates should be required to have a measurable IQ of at least 10+ to qualify for office. :think: I told you early on, don't personalize everything. 'You' is generic unless 'you' are named. Take the compliment, Lon: you have a good mind. Use it.)​

.

Thanks, it is always fun to see you handle my ribbings.

Does God always act on His unending plans? Are you sure you want to put that on God? Remember, Lee is reading. :sigh:

This is the 'write a new song' thing again, isn't it? I can't see it being new for God who is infinite. Why can't you concede if God never had a beginning that His thoughts travel at least backward to infinity? This is perplexing me. Perhaps you can state why His plans aren't infinite in a way that will make sense to me. I cannot fathom a God with an infinite past, not having planned things further back than you or I could calculate (infinite). An infinite past already boggles my intellect and busts my logical parameters all to pieces.

No, I don't buy into your (Lon's) perceptions of reality or of God. That doesn't make either of us humble or arrogant. Just different. God is infinite; His plans are not. Neither are His actions.

I still don't understand how God could be infinite and then not have infinite plans. Again, if you could explain your logic here, I 'may' be able to grasp what you are saying but it isn't logically making sense to me. It seems natural that if He is infinite, that His plans would be infinite too. Maybe another way at looking at it: If God had hair, His hair would be without beginning as well.

God's plans became a finite set when He stopped planning and forever closed the future (according to the settled view). You can only claim God has infinite plans if God never had an original thought (a first plan to act) or is still making plans. You, Lon, have already stated that God never had a first (beginning) plan, but you also argue (by inference) that God has stopped planning and closed the future by settling every past, present and future action as already known.

I'm not sure where you are going here. It seems you are seeing contingency in planning. At the same time, you are playing both sides of the fence on this issue which is difficult to follow what you are actually trying to say. Until we get to the grass roots of 'plan' and what it means your OV proposition is a bit esoteric.

That's finite anyway you spell it. The absurdity of God knowing an infinite number of plans in the past as settled should give us pause. Does God know His own mind? I believe so. Otherwise, God is still stuck in the past making plans that presently are already settled. Talk about good intentions. :dizzy:

You are bouncing between Settled and OV here. That is the dizzying aspect.
God having no beginning is already that absurdity you are talking about. If you accept that God has no beginning you also concede logically that whatever God does or plans has no limit. Dizzying? Yes. It is a truth none-the-less.

Are you claiming God has two sets of blueprints (or an infinite number) for His creation? If you are claiming an infinite number of discarded, never materialized plans then I’ll grant that God has or is still making plans that God will never act upon and we are back to an open future. (Pay attention, Lee. Two birds with a single stone. God plans and doesn’t act.) Has God already fashioned an infinite number of plans? … Created an infinite number of universes already in parallel existence? Then God can’t make just one more? If God can make just one more then the future is still open.

You are arguing the difference between our perspective and God's. There is a difference as you have agreed with me.

I also believe God is infinite; from everlasting to everlasting. I also believe God actually thinks (plans) before He acts and that God doesn't always act on His first plan because contingencies exist in created, thinking, acting beings other than God: us. If God is thinking and still making plans and/or adjusting those plans then the future remains open to some degree.

This presumes God does not know the future acts of any man, that God does not have EDF.

So if God is able to make new plans and do new things while not doing other things then welcome to Open Theism!

.... Plato, Augustine and Calvin drop points on their IQ scores.

Philetus


I want to accuse you of confusing 'plans' with 'possibilities', but this is fun and that would be to easy.

I'm not sure 'new' is the right word. Again, as everything exists because of God, then whatever comes from Him isn't 'new' like you and I understand new. We are discussing some weighty philosophical ideas but I want to continue to go back to the fact that I'm the creature, He's creator. I'm finite, and He is infinite. Because I cannot possibly know all ramifications (being finite) of what is infinite: There is a place where our logic cannot reach and this discussion certainly is delving into some of those areas (God has never had a beginning).

 

[lee_merrill]

Of course. If God speaks to bless a nation, and they rebel, then God will not act on that blessing. If God promises to destroy a nation and they repent, then God is not obligated to fulfill that promise.

Numbers 23:19-20 Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? I have received a command to bless; he has blessed, and I cannot change it.

So this blessing is not optional, otherwise this question makes no sense here, to be asking such a question where the answer is "yes, God may indeed possibly change his mind." So then in such statements, God does not speak and then not act, nor promise and not fulfill.

I used the words "truly, truly", doesn't that make it certain? According to your criteria it does.

No, these are not magic words that make a statement certain. The point is that saying "this is certain" (it doesn't have to be the words "truly truly") about a point known to be uncertain is lying.

It isn't a lie, just like my prediction of how the Patriots will do this season ...

It isn't a lie to make an estimate or prediction, as long as you don't say it's sure, knowing it's not.

... are humans not capable of determining to will their palms the opposite of whatever God says?

What has happened to the omnicompetent God? And you ignored my point about Peter.

Everything you've brought up so far that you accuse the OV God of being too weak to do has been a logical contradiction.

I don't see a logical contradiction in bringing a person's hands to rest palms down on a table.

Would you be willing to admit that God (according to the SV) can do the logically contradictory?

No, God cannot make true be false, or false be true.

Yes, God is smart means He has a very good estimate. There are some things that are known for certain because God will do them regardless of whatever the will of man is.

So events in the future are not inherently unknowable.

... all events that depend on the will of man are uncertain to greater or lesser degrees.

Then how can God know that only a remnant will be saved, and then all Israel?

The same way I know I'm going to still love my wife tomorrow. And all Israel will be saved in the same way all Israel came to be baptised by John the Baptist.

Your love does not depend on the will of man, on your will? If it does, then it is uncertain to some degree, as you have said--not to impugn your love for your wife, however. And "all" must certainly mean some will repent, and this prediction then must be--according to OVT--to some degree uncertain, as indeed you say. But this prediction is certain, and involves people not even born yet, and their decisions.

Romans 9:27-28 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality."

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Philetus]

This presumes God does not know the future acts of any man, that God does not have EDF.

Well, duh. Everything I say presumes God does not have EDF, Lon. Did you forget who you were talking to?

Infinite God does not suffer from EDF but, some finite creatures do suffer from ADD.

I'm not sure 'new' is the right word. Again, as everything exists because of God, then whatever comes from Him isn't 'new' like you and I understand new. We are discussing some weighty philosophical ideas but I want to continue to go back to the fact that I'm the creature, He's creator. I'm finite, and He is infinite. Because I cannot possibly know all ramifications (being finite) of what is infinite: There is a place where our logic cannot reach and this discussion certainly is delving into some of those areas (God has never had a beginning).

But, not everything imagined exists. Does it? Even if God imagined and planned the universe billions of years ago at that point God had a new thought, at the moment of creating the universe was new, even to God or else the universe is as infinite as you describe God to be.

And no, this is not the same as 'God writing a new song'. The assertion that God has an infinite number of plans is more like God writing an infinite number of songs that are never sung ... God making plans He doesn't intend to act on. Are God's actions infinite? Are there things God does not ... will not do? Did God stop creating at the end of the sixth day and rest on the seventh? He could have made one more creature, but He stopped.

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.​

Is God still napping? Or is God still thinking and acting; relating to what He created? The infinite still relates to the finite and the finite (however limited)can and must relate to the infinite. Knowing, loving and worshiping God is built into the very fabric of our existence. The finite is not so limited that they cannot experience and know The Infinite God of creation in a personal, dynamic, intimate way. Neither is the infinite so limited that He cannot become flesh and blood and move into our neighborhood.

Finite - We have only a finite amount of resources.
Infinite - without any finite or measurable limits

Plans - a method of doing something that is worked out in advance
something that somebody intends or has arranged to do
to intend to do something, or make arrangements to do something

If you are arguing that God has a specific intention to do something, a goal and A plan (I think we agree He does) and that God has an infinite amount of resources to apply to the task and unlimited potentiality and an infinite number of ways to accomplish His intention for creation, then we agree. And welcome to Open Theism. The plan (method) of accomplishing His goal was worked out in advance. But, the devil is in the details. People do things that do not help further God’s cause. It is called sin. Sin is divergent and in opposition to God’s PLAN (notice the singular). But God can adjust His actions (relate and respond) and not deviate from His over all plan. If you are referring to the details like page one in a set of plans (notice the plural) to accomplish a single purpose, then I still agree; there are perhaps infinite potential adjustments that God may need to make in order to accomplish the intended goal of the over all plan (notice the singular again). The adjustments need not be part of the original plan. They are only called for when contingencies warrant. God is a living, dynamic, relational being (thinking and acting) who is in control of HIS over all plan. That doesn’t mean we don’t steal apples, cut corners and try to do things our own way. The finite can destroy mess with creation and distort their own true identities beyond recognition; even commit suicide, but that will not alter the over all plan of God though it may require a loving, holy God to adjust.

God has a single plan and infinite possibilities for accomplishing His Goal and dealing with finite creatures who have been given freedom to either help or hinder in the details of progression.

If you are using infinite plans as infinite intentions then you can help us all out and explain to Lee how it is that God makes plan he doesn’t act on.

Philetus


:aimiel: In-finite ... I guess from the perspective of a worm, infinite can be seen such a negative term (pointing to only our worminess) until you come to the incarnation and see God in the flesh, the infinite in the finite, God in Christ, Christ in you the hope of glory.

 

[Philetus]

I cannot fathom a God with an infinite past, not having planned things further back than you or I could calculate (infinite). An infinite past already boggles my intellect and busts my logical parameters all to pieces.

God is infinite, from everlasting to everlasting. There has never been nor will there ever be one second that God does not exist. But, having an infinite amount of time to plan isn't the same as making an infinite number of plans.