ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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godrulz

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God choses to have a people: Israel and the Church. He choses the conditions for becoming part of this corporate group: repentant faith.

He does not play eenie meanie minnie moe with individuals for destiny. This would compromise His great and impartial love and negate the efficacy of His sacrifice intended for all, but only appropriated by some in response to His drawing and influence (which is not irresistible, by His sovereign choice...love relationships trump your unworthy determinism better suited to fatalistic Islam).

There goes my chance for a Christmas present from you.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
God choses to have a people: Israel and the Church. He choses the conditions for becoming part of this corporate group: repentant faith.

He does not play eenie meanie minnie moe with individuals for destiny. This would compromise His great and impartial love and negate the efficacy of His sacrifice intended for all, but only appropriated by some in response to His drawing and influence (which is not irresistible, by His sovereign choice...love relationships trump your unworthy determinism better suited to fatalistic Islam).

There goes my chance for a Christmas present from you.


God intimately knew those He chose in Christ for salvation before the foundation of the world. His love relationship with those elect is equivalent to His love for His Son.

Anyone who does not comprehend and appreciate the unconditional election of God, has no concept of the love of God brought to a particular people through the grace of His Son.

IOW's, Godly determinism and election is the perfect expression of God's love for mankind in Christ, which trumps any notions of universal attempts and failures to save all.

I will pray for you over Christmas. It is the best I can gift I can give you.

Nang
 

Evoken

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RobE said:
However I would point out that Thomism's main thrust is the irresistability of grace.

I would not say the "irresistibility of grace", as irresistible grace is a Calvinist term that has it's own meaning within that system and using it may lead to confusion. Rather, it is the intrinsic efficaciousness of grace that is the contention of Thomists as far as the nature of efficacious grace goes in contrast to the extrinsic efficaciousness of grace upheld by the Molinists. The Thomist maintains that the power of efficacious grace belongs to the nature of the grace, that is, it is efficacious in itself. The Molinists maintain that it is made efficacious only by our consent.


In this way neo-Calvinism and Thomism are very similar in their beliefs.

I guess that would depend on what you have in mind when you say "neo-Calvinism". If by it you mean the supra or hyper-Calvinist view held by Nang, beloved and others on this board, then this view is quite opposed to Thomism. However, if by it you mean the infra view, then I would agree. I think it is safe to say that I am on the same page as AMR on many things.


I've stated before that Christianity is coming to a concensus on this issue of free will vs. foreknowledge. That concensus is that foreknowledge and free will are indeed compatible. The Thomist view which may well be correct does not address the knot of this problem. They simply admit that they are unable to understand how God does it.

Well what do you mean by "free will"? If by it you mean: "the power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.", then I contend that such an idea of free-will is unrealistic and should be discarded. First, because our willing does not takes place in a vacuum but is necessarily constrained by external circumstances and is in fact a response to them. It is also shaped by our own internal impulses. Second, because our will by it's very nature is constrained and can only will that which reason proposes to it as having some good. We lack the capacity to will that which we judge to be evil. Third, because this definition of free will assumes that the creature is autonomous and not subject to divine providence, that is, the definition is not a theistic definition but a secular one that goes against the fact of our complete dependence on God as his creatures.

However, if by "free will" you mean: "the ability or discretion to choose" (source for both definitions), then this is simply a faculty that belongs to us by nature and that is precisely what free will is: our ability to choose. To choose what? That which reason proposes as having some good. Understood in this sense, we have free will wether or not we take foreknowledge into account.

Now as to the question of our exercise of this faculty and wether or not it is determined by God. Thomists maintain that it is determined by God, but parting from the five proofs (specially the one from motion) say that while God premoves each person he does not coerces our freedom but actualizes it by moving us to consent freely to the side decreed. God does not forces our movement nor destroys our faculty of willing. Rather, he works in us and with us by moving our will from within and in accord with it's nature. I see no reason to believe that God in his omnipotency cannot bring this about, specially when we take into account that God is not only outside of time but also of a higher order of nature.


Well, what is the 'sufficient' grace of the Thomist? It isn't saving grace. So what form does it take within Thomism?

Sufficient grace empowers us to perform salutary acts, it grants the possibility of fulfilling divine precepts but not the actual act itself. For the performance of the actual act, an additional efficacious grace is needed. Man can resist sufficient grace and in so doing he deprives himself of the efficacious grace he would have received through sufficient grace if he had not placed an obstacle. Of course, this doesn't means that man resists sufficient grace because he lacks efficacious grace, this is a common misunderstanding. Rather, fallen man can by himself, given that his will is defective, place an obstacle to sufficient grace and thus efficacious grace is rightly withheld from him as a form of punishment.


Evo
 

godrulz

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How can God know individuals before they even exist? Why would He save some, but damn many more that He could save if He would only will it (your view)? Individuals may or may not come into existence. The ones that do, may or may not come to faith in Christ. These contingencies preclude exhaustive foreknowledge or determinism.

Don't tell me you believe in the preexistence of souls like Origen and Mormons do.
 

RobE

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Surely we have answered your pet question over and over.

Yet you continually refuse to answer it fully. The question becomes,.....

"How was it known Judas would not repent if foreknowledge and free will are incompatible?".

John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.​

Muz answered saying that God didn't call Judas resulting in positive reprobation.

When was he doomed? Not before birth nor by decree.

How do you know this?

He did not start out doomed, but became a betrayer.

I agree. Judas was not always a betrayer, but became one after Jesus spoke these words. The act was yet undetermined, even though foreknown.

He was not born possessed, but was possessed by Satan later in life.

Nor was he continuously possessed as we see that Satan entered him twice.

When Jesus spoke these words, the heart of Judas had already shifted. It is proximal foreknowledge based on perfect knowledge of the present.

You forget the earlier foretelling....

John 6:70 Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)​

I already pointed you to Sander's development of fulfilled meaning illustrated, not just predictive.

These scriptures don't point to illustration. Christ is praying to the Father in one verse, and John is carifying Christ's words in the other. Christ said, "one of you is a devil!" before Judas went to the chief priests. Christ said, "None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled" before Judas brought the temple guard. What's being 'illustrated' here?

If Judas would have repented, but Tom Jones would have betrayed, then the Bible would be different and the passage would have been illustrated by someone else.

The point is: either God coerces the situation or God foreknows the situation. What proof do you have that these verses are 'illustrative'? I have proof that they are not 'illustrative' in the fact that Christ spoke them as factual. In the one instance Christ spoke them to the Father as factual. What further proof do you require?

Judas as pawn/puppet is one of the bad areas of theology in J.C. Superstar. Don't fall for it.

I'm not relying on John 6:44 to explain what happened.

Simple foreknowledge (exhaustive) is not proven from this text since it was not a prediction from before Judas' birth.

It does not have to be from before Judas' birth to prove compatibility between foreknowledge and free will. It only has to be before Judas' act or death depending on if we're speaking of betrayal or non-repentence.

It would not be a normative hermeneutic to apply randomly without the Spirit's inspiration.

What does this mean? Does it mean I shouldn't read the words which Christ spoke and believe what He said? Does it mean I should adhere to my own desires and claim Christ meant something else? Are you following Pinnock's lead and beginning to believe the Holy Scriptures are fallible? I'm serious with these questions. What does this mean?

Rob Mauldin
 

RobE

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I guess that would depend on what you have in mind when you say "neo-Calvinism". However, if by it you mean the infra view, then I would agree. I think it is safe to say that I am on the same page as AMR on many things.

Yes, I mean the "infra" view which as I understand is the predominant view within Calvinism.

Well what do you mean by "free will"? If by it you mean: "the power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.", then I contend that such an idea of free-will is unrealistic and should be discarded.

Libertarian free will is a fantasy.

However, if by "free will" you mean: "the ability or discretion to choose" (source for both definitions), then this is simply a faculty that belongs to us by nature and that is precisely what free will is: our ability to choose. To choose what? That which reason proposes as having some good. Understood in this sense, we have free will wether or not we take foreknowledge into account.

This definition is lacking for me as well. Free will is the ability to act without coercion. In other words, acting according to our nature without constraint is my definition of free will.

I agree that foreknowledge is a completely seperate subject from free will. Now if you could convince the 'ots' of the error within their thoughts we might make some progress.

Now as to the question of our exercise of this faculty and wether or not it is determined by God. Thomists maintain that it is determined by God, but parting from the five proofs (specially the one from motion) say that while God premoves each person he does not coerces our freedom but actualizes it by moving us to consent freely to the side decreed.

Which is the same position as the Molinist's idea that God provides the exact Graces to inspire our consent to achieve His desired outcomes. You see, even Molinists and Thomists are lining up their theologies.

God does not forces our movement nor destroys our faculty of willing. Rather, he works in us and with us by moving our will from within and in accord with it's nature. I see no reason to believe that God in his omnipotency cannot bring this about, specially when we take into account that God is not only outside of time but also of a higher order of nature.

Man can resist sufficient grace and in so doing he deprives himself of the efficacious grace he would have received through sufficient grace if he had not placed an obstacle. Of course, this doesn't means that man resists sufficient grace because he lacks efficacious grace, this is a common misunderstanding. Rather, fallen man can by himself, given that his will is defective, place an obstacle to sufficient grace and thus efficacious grace is rightly withheld from him as a form of punishment.

As I understand it, the above statement describes Molinism perfectly. Are you sure you're in the Thomist camp?
 

RobE

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How can God know individuals before they even exist?

You are an outcome of your parents free acts. If God foreknows outcomes of free acts then God knows you. God is more intelligent than many open theists might imagine.

Why would He save some, but damn many more that He could save if He would only will it (your view)?

God saves those who desire to be saved despite those who would reject Him. Doesn't your view claim God is able to save all, but chooses to let them choose for themselves. Christianity makes the same claim.

Individuals may or may not come into existence
.

God knows all possible worlds and therefore all that is knowable, whether they come into existence or not. The question you need to ask yourself is does God know the ontological world which He has created?

The ones that do, may or may not come to faith in Christ. These contingencies preclude exhaustive foreknowledge or determinism.

How so? Isn't it true that the real world is just a subset of 'all possible worlds'?

Don't tell me you believe in the preexistence of souls like Origen and Mormons do.

Of course not. Christianity believes in the preexistence of God knowing all that is knowable. God even knows that which doesn't presently exist, like the passenger pigeon; and, at one time, the Earth. You haven't always existed, but God knew you theoretically. He's getting to know you personally now. Does God take pleasure in the practical relationship?
 

Evoken

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How can God know individuals before they even exist? Why would He save some, but damn many more that He could save if He would only will it (your view)? Individuals may or may not come into existence. The ones that do, may or may not come to faith in Christ. These contingencies preclude exhaustive foreknowledge or determinism.

Don't tell me you believe in the preexistence of souls like Origen and Mormons do.

No, as a Catholic I believe that each soul is created by God at conception.

The contingencies do not preclude exhaustive foreknowledge. God knows the future free actions of creatures as well as any contingencies infallibly because from all eternity he decreed to bring about a particular world order (providence). In the execution of providence in time (divine government) God premoves each creature in accord with its nature to bring about his decree and thus he knows infallibly the free actions of creatures as well as every other contingencies he has determined from all eternity would take place.

The reason why God elects some but reprobates others is to be found only on his holy will. Salvation is a gift freely given by God not merited by us (Ephesians 2:8-9). So God is free to give it to whom he wills. We do not have a right to be saved nor do we have a right to his love. Rather, God is free to love whom he wills and to the degree that he wills. This doesn't means that God's love is arbitrary, on the contrary, it is the most free form of love there can be.

The basis for the freedom of God's love is to be found in the fact that since God's love is the cause of goodness in things, that is, he doesn't loves things because they are good but makes them good by his love, then no creature would be better than the other had it not been more loved by God first.

This fact is clearly attested to in Scripture, where we see that apart from God we can't do nothing (John 15:5), that our sufficiency is from God and not of ourselves (2 Corinthians 3:5), that we are what we are by the grace of God (1 Corinthians 15:10), that there is nothing we have that we have not received (1 Corinthians 4:7), that no one can receive anything unless it is given to him from heaven (John 3:27) and also that every gift is from above (James 1:17).

That being the case, we cannot say that we have any good of ourselves that God should love, there is nothing for us to boast about or by which we can demand God's love in any way. Thus the elect would not be better than the reprobate had they not been loved more by God first. The merits of the elect far from being the cause of their predestination are its effect (Ephesians 2:10).


Evo
 

Evoken

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RobE said:
I agree that foreknowledge is a completely seperate subject from free will. Now if you could convince the 'ots' of the error within their thoughts we might make some progress.

Well, if the openists are of the idea that we have libertarian free will, then I doubt that any progress can be made until it is realized that libertarian free will is a false notion.


Which is the same position as the Molinist's idea that God provides the exact Graces to inspire our consent to achieve His desired outcomes. You see, even Molinists and Thomists are lining up their theologies.

The Thomist does not say that God merely inspires our consent, as if implying that the consent to perform the salutary act comes solely from ourselves. That is, he doesn't just provides graces and waits for us to consent. There is a way in which the two views of efficacious grace are different.

The Thomist holds that we have from God not only the will to do good (via sufficient grace) but also the actual act to accomplish the good that we will (via efficacious grace), as St. Paul states (Philippians 2:13). Since it is to God that we own all the good in us, there is nothing in us to boast about (Ephesians 2:8-9).

The Molinist view in contrast, given two men, each being allocated an equal amount of grace, it can come to pass that one man performs a salutary act and the other does not without receiving any further help from God. In this case the good in the man would not be something coming from God but from the man himself.

This is a critical difference between both systems.


As I understand it, the above statement describes Molinism perfectly. Are you sure you're in the Thomist camp?

Yes I am sure. Thomists also reject scientia media, which the Molinists accept. The Molinists reject the doctrine of the divine predetermining decrees and physical premotion of the Thomists, both of which I accept.


Evo
 

godrulz

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:hammer:

Tylenol please?

Libertarian free will is a redundancy, but necessary to distinguish genuine free will from determinism or illusory 'compatibilistic' freedom that is not genuine freedom.
 

lee_merrill

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How can God know individuals before they even exist?
How could he create a world out of nothing? How on earth could he do that?

Why would He save some, but damn many more that He could save if He would only will it (your view)?
Because in some he chooses to show his mercy, in others, his wrath. That's a quote, my friend. Muz also would seem to agree that there is reprobation. Yet how would you all explain how God can know a remnant will be saved? Isn't repentance dependent on human choice, according to the Open View?

For some number of people positively being saved is part of "his sentence on earth," and then after a time, "all Israel."

Individuals may or may not come into existence. The ones that do, may or may not come to faith in Christ. These contingencies preclude exhaustive foreknowledge ...
Unless God is more capable than the Open Theists are saying.

Blessings,
Lee
 

godrulz

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Creation ex nihilo is based on omnipotence. Issues relating to omniscience must factor in what are possible objects of knowledge. To not know a nothing is not a limitation on omniscience. The future is not yet, a nothing.
 

lee_merrill

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The future is not yet, a nothing.
Like what God started with, in creation?

And who are we to say what God can and cannot know?

And how can God know only a remnant will be saved? and how would you explain how God can know a remnant will be saved? Isn't repentance dependent on human choice, according to the Open View? Remember it came down to only Noah once--suppose it did again, and that person rebelled?

Romans 9:27-29 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality." It is just as Isaiah said previously: "Unless the Lord Almighty had left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah."
 

godrulz

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Explicit phrases in Scripture relating to God's knowledge shows that there is an element of uncertainty and openness about the future. This is revelation, consistent with godly reason. You must dismiss these passages to retain your theology. I will not do so since that would be poor exegesis.

Perhaps you have not studied the biblical evidence for Open Theism enough. There are many passages that support its principles that you must water down or ignore to retain your views.
 

lee_merrill

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It seems you skipped my questions, Godrulz, this would be your opportunity to give the Open View response.

There are many passages that support its principles that you must water down or ignore to retain your views.
My responses you may find here, if you mean the standard verses!

Blessings,
Lee
 

Lon

Well-known member
Explicit phrases in Scripture relating to God's knowledge shows that there is an element of uncertainty and openness about the future. This is revelation, consistent with godly reason. You must dismiss these passages to retain your theology. I will not do so since that would be poor exegesis.

Perhaps you have not studied the biblical evidence for Open Theism enough. There are many passages that support its principles that you must water down or ignore to retain your views.

What? Like 1Samuel 15? Tell me you have something much more compelling, please. God breathed a heavy sigh, not 'repent,' not 'changed His mind.' Num 23:19 God is consistent, not given to whims. 1Sa 15:29 The caricature of a God made of stone does not complete the Calvinist picture. God is consistent and He says of Himself "I change not." This means, while relational, He is absolutely perfect and consistent Heb 13:8 in the way He deals with us, regardless of our inconsistency.
 

RobE

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The Thomist does not say that God merely inspires our consent, as if implying that the consent to perform the salutary act comes solely from ourselves. That is, he doesn't just provides graces and waits for us to consent. There is a way in which the two views of efficacious grace are different.

I'm sure this is only a matter of perception....

NewAdvent.Org

Even Molinism must and does admit that the very idea of efficacious grace includes the free consent of the will, and also that the decree of God to bestow an efficacious grace upon a man involves with metaphysical certainty the free co-operation of the will. From this it follows that God must possess some infallible source of knowledge by means of which he knows from all eternity, with metaphysical certainty, whether in the future the will is going to co-operate with a given grace or to resist it. When the question has assumed this form, it is easy to see that the whole controversy resolves itself into a discussion on the foreknowledge which God has of the free future acts; and thus the two opposing systems on grace are ultimately founded upon the general doctrine on God and His attributes. Both systems are confronted with the wider and deeper question: What is the medium of knowledge (medium in quo) in which God foresees the (absolute or conditioned) free operations of His rational creatures? That there must be such a medium of Divine foreknowledge is evident. The Thomists answer: God foresees the (absolute and conditioned) free acts of man in the eternal decrees of His own will, which with absolute certainty produce prœmovendo as definite prœdeterminationcs ad unum, all (absolute and conditional) free operations. With the same absolute certainty with which He knows His own will, He also foresees clearly and distinctly in the decrees of His will all future acts of man. However, the Molinists maintain that, since, as we remarked above, the predetermining decrees of the Divine Will must logically and necessarily destroy freedom and lead to Determinism, they cannot possibly be the medium in which God infallibly foresees future free acts. Rather these decrees must presuppose a special knowledge (scientia media), in the light of which God infallibly foresees from all eternity what attitude man's will would in any conceivable combination of circumstances assume if this or that particular grace were offered it. And it is only when guided by His infallible foreknowledge that God determines the kind of grace He shall give to man. If, for example, He foresees by means of the scientia media that St. Peter, after his denial of Christ, shall freely co-operate with a certain grace, He decrees to give him this particular grace and none other; the grace thus conferred becomes efficacious in bringing about his repentance. In the case of Judas, on the other hand, God, foreseeing the future resistance of this Apostle to a certain grace of conversion, decreed to allow it, and consequently bestowed upon him a grace which in itself was really sufficient, but remained inefficacious solely on account of the refractory disposition of the Apostle's will. Guided by this scientia media God is left entirely free in the disposition and distribution of grace. On His good pleasure alone it depends to whom He will give the supreme grace of final perseverance, to whom He will refuse it; whom He will receive into Heaven, whom He will exclude from His sight for ever. This doctrine is in perfect harmony with the dogmas of the gratuity of grace, the unequal distribution of efficacious grace, the wise and inscrutable operations of Divine Providence, the absolute impossibility to merit final perseverance, and lastly the immutable predestination to glory or rejection; nay more, it brings these very dogmas into harmony, not only with the infallible foreknowledge of God, but also with the freedom of the created will.​

So you see that Thomists along with Infra-Calvinists see God's knowledge as a result of His decrees; whereas, Molinist's see God's decrees founded on His knowledge. A minor point --- since God's Decree and Knowledge exist atemporally(or simultaneously) within His Divine Person(s).

Are we to claim, just as the 'ots' do that one of God's attributes takes precedence over another?

This becomes a debate over the logical order of events. I should point out that it's man's logical order, not Gods. Who's to say that God is unable to know the end from the beginning?

The Thomist holds that we have from God not only the will to do good (via sufficient grace) but also the actual act to accomplish the good that we will (via efficacious grace), as St. Paul states (Philippians 2:13). Since it is to God that we own all the good in us, there is nothing in us to boast about (Ephesians 2:8-9).

And where does the Molinist claim that man received the ability to do good from?

The Molinist view in contrast, given two men, each being allocated an equal amount of grace, it can come to pass that one man performs a salutary act and the other does not without receiving any further help from God. In this case the good in the man would not be something coming from God but from the man himself.

Well this might be true, but it would be more precise to say that God gives each man the amount of grace needed to be considered sufficient to the task of generating a positive response. The man's own nature, which was provided by God at the moment of conception per His Divine Act, was a Grace in and of itself. Combined these two Graces are sufficient to be effecacious. Neither alone will provide final perseverence. Both from God, neither originating from man. The question becomes, "Will the man exchange all that God has given him(freedom of action) to obtain the pearl of great price?".

This is a critical difference between both systems.

What is the significance of arguing over which attribute precedes the other? Is there an advantage in either system or are they both true like foreknowledge and free will being compatible?

Yes I am sure. Thomists also reject scientia media, which the Molinists accept. The Molinists reject the doctrine of the divine predetermining decrees and physical premotion of the Thomists, both of which I accept.

Absolutely not. Molinists accept predestination as fact and I explained above the 'physical premotion' of the Molinists.

I appreciate your teaching. Are we able to come to a concensus? I would say that the Church was correct in making both views acceptable and valid. Is there any reason to say that the Church was wrong in Her edict?
 

RobE

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:hammer:

Tylenol please?

Libertarian free will is a redundancy, but necessary to distinguish genuine free will from determinism or illusory 'compatibilistic' freedom that is not genuine freedom.

I know you feel this is true, but where is the logical proof of it being so? Certainly Greek philosophy isn't blinding your mind's eye.
 

RobE

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Creation ex nihilo is based on omnipotence. Issues relating to omniscience must factor in what are possible objects of knowledge. To not know a nothing is not a limitation on omniscience. The future is not yet, a nothing.

So is the 1911 World Series, but I know of it. The passenger pigeon, Abraham Lincoln, and my next paycheck. All not in existence today, but will be or were existent. Things need not exist to be known. Did the Wright brothers have an idea airflight was possible even before it existed?

Come on. Heads out and up! God knew of spaceflight, airflight, and all possibilities prior to their existence.

Rob
 

godrulz

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What? Like 1Samuel 15? Tell me you have something much more compelling, please. God breathed a heavy sigh, not 'repent,' not 'changed His mind.' Num 23:19 God is consistent, not given to whims. 1Sa 15:29 The caricature of a God made of stone does not complete the Calvinist picture. God is consistent and He says of Himself "I change not." This means, while relational, He is absolutely perfect and consistent Heb 13:8 in the way He deals with us, regardless of our inconsistency.

Will not vs cannot. In some cases, God will not change His mind no matter what (wisdom). In other cases (Hezekiah, for e.g.), He does change His mind in response to believing prayer.

God has sovereignly chosen reciprocal love relationships and has given us a say-so. He has the ultimate say, but He values relationship more than Dictatorship.
 
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