ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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patman

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I appreciate your tenacity.

This all to say that "if OV isn't true, God lies."

God does not lie, but neither is OV true in my estimation.

Your scenario purposefully equates a lie. It is set up on the premise of a lie and math doesn't work unless you use algebra.

4X+5=Y The value I give Y will determine X. You have a variable with all known contingencies.

Finally, I do not agree, we cannot see how God knows anything. He doesn't explain Himself to His creation nor is it expected that He should do so.

I should have answered these in both these in one post.

It doesn't matter which theology is true, God does not lie. I am, however, saying that S.V. cannot align scriptures correctly and tends to make God look like he is lying.

Future conditions are impossible where the future is settled. How can an all future knowing God say "if" and offer real promises?

If the future is settled like the past is, this is what a "condition" would be like:

It would be like me saying now (Mon Dec 17 1:27a.m.), "Lon, If in post #5693 at you say, 'Dog's and Cats Love each other,' on Sunday Dec 16 at 2p.m. without editing it after this post was made, I'll give you $20."

Notice this post has already passed. And you never said that. All along I knew I would never have to give you $20. Therefore, where there are settled events, there are no conditions.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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How does a passing observational comment by Overstreet dismiss the pages of interaction with Scripture and Church history? You would dismiss any non-Calvinistic author with the same prejudice and disdain. Asserting Calvinism does not negate the cogent thoughts of those who do not find it biblical.
You have cited Overstreet numerous times, and your newfound flavor of the month, Shank, nearly a hundred times. Overstreet is the "it does not 'feel' right" proponent, so he has nothing to offer to reasoned discussion.

Despite your claim that I dismiss non-Reformed authors, Shank is one example to the contrary. I take what he writes seriously and have offered to show you numerous errors in his scholarship. But you refuse to engage at the level required to do so, and prefer to just assert "Shank is right". I infrequently quote from the historical masters or present day experts. I do respond to mis-characterizations of their works when I see them. You have a propensity to point to or quote others thinking it a substitute for argumentation. If you believe Shank got it all correct, and you must since you rarely fail to drop his name, then put it to the test or get used to being called a shill.
 

godrulz

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I have only read 1/3 of his book and am not agreeing with everything he says (he also quotes other commentators, not just his own ideas). I do think he is generally on the right track and is more correct that OSAS/POTS.

In reference to your frequent accusations that we are reducing God to human level, consider this from Sanders-Hall debate:

Sanders- "You say that OT has a tendency to distill God to human proportions. What criterion are you using to make this judgment? You do not seem to accept all the divine attributes of classical theism. For instance, you don't seem to accept the classical definition of impassibility, and in your last letter you say that God may be able to change in some respects. Hmm. Do you know what Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, and contemporary classical theists would say about you? They would say, 'Chris Hall has a tendency to reduce God to human proportions.'

You see, it all depends on the view one holds as to whether someone is reducing God. I don't think I am but you think I am. You don't think you are but Aquinas would say you are. Aquinas did not think he was but Tillich would say even Thomas made God too human. So, I welcome you to the 'club' of those who are accused of reducing God to human proportions."
 
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godrulz

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Calvinist Hall notes this about the openness model:

"1) A rejection of divine timelessness based on biblical texts that present God as changing his mind, growing in knowledge, grieving over the actions of human beings, reevaluating past decisions, etc.

2) A rejection of exhaustive divine foreknowledge based on one principal philosophical argument: timeless foreknowledge is useless for God since God cannot change what He foresees human beings doing. It is contradictory to say that God foresees what will actually happen and to also say that God changes it to make it not happen. This response would render God's foreknowledge incorrect."


I guess I am guilty as charged.

I still consider the divine lisp concept to be a poor loophole to retain a preconceived Platonic concept. Despite not uncritically accepting this, I still believe in accom. and anthrop. when the context warrants it.
 
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Ask Mr. Religion

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I have only read 1/3 of his book and am not agreeing with everything he says (he also quotes other commentators, not just his own ideas). I do think he is generally on the right track and is more correct that OSAS/POTS.

In reference to your frequent accusations that we are reducing God to human level, consider this from Sanders-Hall debate:

You say that OT has a tendency to distill God to human proportions. What criterion are you using to make this judgment? You do not seem to accept all the divine attributes of classical theism. For instance, you don't seem to accept the classical definition of impassibility, and in your last letter you say that God may be able to change in some respects. Hmm. Do you know what Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, and contemporary classical theists would say about you? They would say, 'Chris Hall has a tendencyto reduce God to human proportions.'

You see, it all depends on the view one holds as to whether someone is reducing God. I don't think I am but you think I am. You don't think you are but Aquinas would say you are. Aquinas did not think he was but Tillich would say even Thomas made God too human. So, I welcome you to the 'club' of those who are accused of reducing God to human proportions.
Since you did not use quotation marks I don't know where one leaves off and gr begins. Nor do I know what point you are making with respect to me versus Chris Hall. By the way, a source of the quote would have been nice, no?

I have read both of Shank's books (Life in the Son, Elect in the Son). On election he maintains an unhealthy appeal to "universal passages", that when these verses are explained properly, make his entire argument collapse and his view then becomes no improvement over the Arminian position.

On perseverance of the saints, his doctrine can be shown to be in opposition to the doctrine of forgiveness and justification. Shank's answers seemed at times to deal with caricatures rather than the real doctrines of unconditional security or perseverance. Thin documentation contributed to this problem. I was also taken aback by his reliance upon Barth and Berkouwer, even going beyond them both. Shank calls Christ the locus standi of election, concluding, "In the face of many affirmations of Holy Scripture, it may in truth be said that Christ, who is our Life, is Himself the Election" (page 44,45). Shank here seems to be saying that Christ is the only elect, exceeding any evidence that he offered.

The most serious weakness in this book and the argument Shank puts forth is that there is no clear statement from Scripture to the effect that the regenerated can lose their salvation. Given such a serious fate that could befall a Christian, it would seem that there should be at least one definite statement to give warning concerning the danger. Instead Shank cited parables, suppositions, warnings, and possibilities. He rested the burden of his case, by his own admission, upon the figurative language of John 15:1-6. This is quite amazing, given the figurative language and the existence of clear didactic passages.

The weakness in both texts is his failure to accept a Scriptural balance in his doctrinal position. Shank fails to understand that biblical faith is both the act of a moment and the continual habit of a lifetime. In the salvation experience Shank emphasizes the response of man while neglecting the work of God which makes that response possible. Shank does not distinguish between the desire and the determined will of God.
 

godrulz

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Shank does deal with the warning and falling away passages. When he talks about regeneration, he also talks about the need for ongoing relationship, not just a past experience that ceases to be real in the future.

He has a chapter on Jn. 15, but I would not say that is the basis of the whole book. He hits various themes and topics, that one referring to abiding lest one be cut off from the vine. He also emphasizes a Godward and manward response, something you might not see due to your strong monergism.

Is 'Elect in the Son' about corporate election? I doubt he believes Jesus alone is elect. Again, you will dismiss this since you believe in individual election, though guys like Forster and Marsten "God's Strategy in Human History" have argued biblically for corporate election (Calvinist F.F. Bruce disagrees with them but is more charitable at the strength of their arguments that you probably would be).

I usually do use quotes, so don't make a generalization based on one lazy post. Looking back, it was clear, but I added "..." and Sanders-

It is acceptable to use a colon as I did.

President Bush said: Ummm. Let me think, er....

This should be as obvious to a non-nitpicker as Bush said: "........".

The context was Sanders-Hall, but it was a reminder to AMR and others that we can all be unfairly accused of humanizing God. I think Calvinism does that in some ways or I would be a Calvinist (wrongly assumes that God must tightly control everything to be 'sovereign', a human concept not worthy of an omnicompetent God).

I thought your first reference awhile ago to Shank was like you heard of him and remember debates about it. You didn't just go out and get the books and read them yesterday, did you?

When I read anti-OT books with their Calvinistic assumptions, I do not find them persuasive either. Stalemate?
 

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Is 'Elect in the Son' about corporate election?
Corporate
I thought your first reference awhile ago to Shank was like you heard of him and remember debates about it. You didn't just go out and get the books and read them yesterday, did you?
My first reference was to a paid formal analysis I produced for a seminary prof on one passage Shank uses. Of course I have the books or I could not have performed the analysis, no? I have owned them for twenty years.
When I read anti-OT books with their Calvinistic assumptions, I do not find them persuasive either. Stalemate?
The fact that you assume an "anti-OT" presupposition is telling. Unless explicitly noted in a book or paper, I never assume "anti-Calvinism" or anything other than what I am reading is assumed to be a believer's perspective. If the author's arguments are persuasive, so be it.

Stalemate presumes engagement. Hence, it may be stalemate if and only if you are willing to engage in substantive discussion about a reference. Else, it is merely stubbornness. Do you see the distinction?
 

Philetus

New member
The whole post was good, and this caught my attention:
The context was Sanders-Hall, but it was a reminder to AMR and others that we can all be unfairly accused of humanizing God.

I guess even God can be [unfairly] accused of 'humanizing' Himself; He became flesh and blood and moved into the neighborhood .... didn't he?

Kinda makes ya wonder why .... don't it? :rolleyes:

Philetus


Ever wonder why Mary mistook the resurrected Jesus for (of all things) a gardener? :think:
 

themuzicman

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I think Calvinism can be accused of [unfairly] de-Personalizing God by diminishing His loving, relational attributes by making him fully transcendent, atemporal, immutable and impassible.

Muz
 

Philetus

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I think Calvinism can be accused of [unfairly] de-Personalizing God by diminishing His loving, relational attributes by making him fully transcendent, atemporal, immutable and impassible.

Muz

It never ceases to amuse me that Calvinists seem to think the further they can distant God the bigger God must be ... and after God went to such efforts to make Himself known. They seem to think they can best know God by complicating Him beyond belief. Seems almost anti-Christ or at least anti-Jesus.

Philetus
 

Lon

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Yeah, I know. But what keeps you from making this logical understanding there, but not in the other verse? The prophet God was talking about was Jesus. By extension we can apply this to other prophets, yet we still see conditions at play.

Deuteronomy is about Jesus? You lost me.

It doesn't matter which theology is true, God does not lie. I am, however, saying that S.V. cannot align scriptures correctly and tends to make God look like he is lying.

Future conditions are impossible where the future is settled. How can an all future knowing God say "if" and offer real promises?

Because 'If' statements change the outcome. You know the value of an if statement. You as a programmer still know the outcome 'if' the software comes across the condition(s). God knows the outcome of both.
If the future is settled like the past is, this is what a "condition" would be like:

It would be like me saying now (Mon Dec 17 1:27a.m.), "Lon, If in post #5693 at you say, 'Dog's and Cats Love each other,' on Sunday Dec 16 at 2p.m. without editing it after this post was made, I'll give you $20."

Notice this post has already passed. And you never said that. All along I knew I would never have to give you $20. Therefore, where there are settled events, there are no conditions.

It is a difficult impossible scenario for temporal beings to consider. If God changes the past, first, we'd have to agree He could do it, but because He is perfect, He changes nothing. I let kids take back chess moves because I'm beating them too easily and I want them to learn. God prempts the moves in the first place by offering conditions. He is smarter than I and sees where their moves are headed before they are even made. Because God is not just smart, but omniscient, there is no move that needs retracting "All things work for the good of those..."

Just because God knows our choices does not cause His 'if' any less potency. The
'ifs' alter the course of the future exactly as He intends them to. Even 'if' we don't take Him up on His if, we learn something and thus was the purpose of the interjection. The dynamic here is that God is involved with His creatures relationally. His 'ifs' aren't lies regardless of how you might see them.

Dad: "If you choose macaroni and cheese, I'll put hamburger in it so you get a well-balanced dinner."

I know all along they are going to choose hotdogs and chili, but I'm trying to teach my kids something about a well-balanced meal. I have not lied, I would have added burger and I am using their other choice to teach them something.
 

Philetus

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Lon, You said God's plans are infinite. And I asked: how infinite?


It is a biblical term. It means without limit. My worldview assumes that it would necessarily fall outside of my logical parameters to qualify that. God is infinite, I am not.
Agree, God is infinite, we are not. But how then do you get unlimited plans out of that?

If God’s plans are without limit and they are unknowable, that sounds rather indefinable and indefinite. Don’t you mean they are just beyond your comprehension? I think if you look again God’s PLANS are either not yet made or are known (revealed) and are really quite definable and definite. The issue isn’t how unknowable is God, but to what degree has God made Himself known/knowable even in the kind of world God created and what of God’s plans has God revealed to us in His Word? I would agree that God has infinite possibilities for making plans, and even unlimited power to pull them off, but what God has revealed narrows those possibilities quite a bit.

Philetus
 
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lee_merrill

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Like I said, Lee. I don't have any idea how you are to understand it.
Well, let me rephrase this, then...

So then how do you understand "Does he speak and then not act, does he promise and not fulfill?"

The answer is, "yes, indeed he does"?

How do you read "that is a word the Lord has not spoken"?

How is it not a lie (remembering God's holiness) to say "truly, truly" when it might not be true?

Blessings,
Lee
 

godrulz

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The fact that you assume an "anti-OT" presupposition is telling. Unless explicitly noted in a book or paper, I never assume "anti-Calvinism" or anything other than what I am reading is assumed to be a believer's perspective. If the author's arguments are persuasive, so be it.

The anti-OT books make no bones about their reason for writing. They are strident and inflammatory at times, not open to dialogue like the Hall-Sanders debate exception. Millard Erickson's
http://www.zondervan.com/Cultures/e...ervan.9780310273387&QueryStringSite=Zondervan
was an exception with a more reasonable, fair tone, though still inadequate overall. Bruce Ware is no friend of OT dialogue. The ones that scream 'finite godism' and confuse it with Process Thought are also not credible. Sanders and others have been through the ringer, misrepresented and misunderstood at times. Pinnock and others have also modified or clarified in response to reasonable criticism.

The Hunt-White debate on Calvinism is upfront in its dialogue.
Another generic book is not an attack on Calvinism or OT. I refer to books that are specifically anti-OT warning everyone of its dangers and how Calvinism is the right way to go. Again, these authors also must rail against Arminianism, another form of free will theism.

I believe OT is on the right track, though not mature enough in the modern times to have all the pat answers of a system that is established for centuries uncritically. I believe Calvinism is problematic in many areas, but is content to defend tradition over the possibility of biblical truth (as the Church has historically done when it has been wrong for long periods of times about things relating to Catholicism, babies going to hell, infant baptism, etc.).
 

themuzicman

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God forbid OVT ever get to the point where we have "pat answers." I would hope that OVT would hold to its roots and always be willing to do good exegesis for those who wish to understand.

Muz
 

godrulz

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It never ceases to amuse me that Calvinists seem to think the further they can distant God the bigger God must be ... and after God went to such efforts to make Himself known. They seem to think they can best know God by complicating Him beyond belief. Seems almost anti-Christ or at least anti-Jesus.

Philetus


The image of God concept for man does not deify man nor humanize God. God IS personal and relational, as is man.

God is transcendent (even in OT) and immanent. One view emphasizes the former while the other view emphasizes the latter with neither view denying either truth.
 

Philetus

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The image of God concept for man does not deify man nor humanize God. God IS personal and relational, as is man.

God is transcendent (even in OT) and immanent. One view emphasizes the former while the other view emphasizes the latter with neither view denying either truth.

Truly, truly.
 

Philetus

New member
Originally Posted by themuzicman View Post
Maybe a question for the atemporalists ought to be: Can God respond to us at all?

Muz
Technically, they must say no.

Presentism (endless time)...rah rah.

Eternalism (eternal now)...boo boo.

Yeah, but the word count and link count (here, here and here) on AMR's 'no' is always amusing.

Truly, truly,
Philetus
 
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