Another Brilliant Idea from PlannedBarrenHood
- Thread starter Nineveh
- Start date
Free-Agent Smith
New member
A doctor in the United States is only required to perform services to preserve the sanctity of life.
firechyld
New member
Yes, and if elective abortion is not legally considered to be depriving an individual of life, then the doctor is not breaching his professional ethics by performing one. His personal ethics are a different matter.
I'm not trying to argue that legal abortion is "right" or "moral"... I'm just pointing out that it is legal, and hence not a brief of any doctor's oath. It can still be wrong.
firechyld
New member
As I said, I presumed we were referring to complications that fell outside the scope of OB GYN specialisation.
How common are those complications in the states? (Actual figures only, please) They're incredibly rare here, but as I pointed out, you have to be an OB GYN to perform a termination in Australia. Apparantly that may not be the case in the US.
firechyld
New member
*sigh*
No....
I'll go through this slowly.
When we were discussing people being moved to hospital for complications arising during a termination, I presumed we were talking about complications that were beyond the scope of an OB GYN. Not all complications fall into this category... an OB GYN can take care of a minor interuterine perforation, but not something like a major haemorrage, or anything that is going to require major surgery.
If something like this does occur, the best thing that the doctor can do is get you to a specialist.
And dentists aren't prepared for major complications, and neither are plastic surgeons, and neither are orthodontists, and neither are dermatoligists, and neither are reconstructive surgeons specialising in knee ligaments, and neither are anaesthesiologists, and neither are gastroenterologists, and neither are neurologists....
Are you getting the picture? They aren't moving women with complications because they're inept, they're moving them because there are specialists who can provide better assistance in that circumstance. If you were being treated by any of the specialists I mentioned above and there was a complication, you'd be moved to the nearest ER immediately. Would you consider that your dentist had not been "prepared for emergencies they create"?
Free-Agent Smith
New member
Actually a large amount of doctors in the United States won't perform abortions because they consider it "killing a life".
As that has been said.... No most people performing abortions in the United States aren't doctors. Oddly enough Planned Parenthood is supposed to be government regulated.
As that has been said.... No most people performing abortions in the United States aren't doctors. Oddly enough Planned Parenthood is supposed to be government regulated.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Really now... like what? What sorts of "complications" usually arise during a butcher session?
The reason women (and sometimes girls) are rushed to the emergency room is (I'll say this again in case you missed it the first few times) butchers aren't prepared to handle the emergencies they create at the "women's health clinic".
All of them that are created by the butchers during the murder are.
I'm trying to think of a single instance where a perforated organ is considered "minor". You seem to be slipping ito your fantasy world again. When a murder goes wrong, they either bundle them off to the nearest ER, or send them home in that condition.
Even though an OB/GYN is a specialist.
How many times has a dentist perforated the nasal cavity and pulled sinus tissue out?
How many times has liposuction punchured a bowel and the "doc" sent the victim home in that condition?
In your attempt to exhonorate murderers, you sound silly.
Pulling a woman's bowels out through her uterus isn't ineptitude?
Uh... is that because OB/GYNs aren't specialist in uteri again?
I have never heard of a dentist rushing a person to the hospital because of gross negligence. This must be one of those things that only happen in Australia.
firechyld
New member
I didn't miss it. I just think you're making an assumption which is highly likely to be inaccurate, and you don't have anything to back it up.
Any surgical procedure carries the risk of complications. Regardless of how you feel about the morality of abortion, that is what a termination is: a surgical procedure.
I don't think there is any surgical procedure at all that can be guaranteed to go completely according to plan with no risk of complications.
I never said a perforated organ was minor. I mentioned a "minor interuterine perforation". The contrast is a major interuterine perforation. There's a difference.
It's like the difference between a minor heart attack and a major cardiac arrest. No-one's saying that the small heart attack is a minor occurance to the patient, but it's still a lot less critical than the major failure. These things are measured on a sliding scale.
Yes... they specialise in something that isn't emergency or reconstructive surgery.
How can I give you a figure on that? You can't even give me a figure on how many times an OB GYN has perforated a uterus, and that's a major facet of your argument.
See, I know that liposuction can result in complications like that.
The "sent home" thing isn't a fair comparison in this case, however. The reason women who suffer termination complications often do not know that they have a complication because it's an internal procedure. It happens all the time with non-abortion surgeries. Haven't you heard the horror stories about people finding that their surgeon has left something inside them? Do you know anyone who has had a minor haemorrage and been sent home because it wasn't detected. I do.
No, you just don't seem to be able to understand certain simple facts about the nature of surgery.
And I'm not trying to "exhonerate murderers".
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Do you think that all surgical complications (in all types of surgery, not just terminations) are the result of ineptitude?
I never said they weren't specialists in uteri. I said that they weren't specialists in emergency or reconstructive surgery. You don't seem to be able to grasp this fact....
Again, you put words in my mouth. I said NOTHING about gross negligence... in fact, my last several posts have been devoted to trying to hammer into your head that complications are NOT always the result of negligence. I'll say it again, just in case you still don't get it: I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT NEGLIGENCE!! I AM TALIKING ABOUT COMPLICATIONS!!
Dentists do have to move patients to an ER if there are complications in procedure. This usually happens when performing dental surgery under local anaesthetic. A friend of mine had to be rushed to an ER because he started haemorraging while his wisdom teeth were being removed. Pretty scary stuff.
Free-Agent Smith
New member
Good thing too.
I said "most people", not all. My evidence? How about you come and visit some of them here in the U.S. and see for yourself?
Getting a list of the people performing them is almost next impossible.
firechyld
New member
*shrug* Deciding against something because of your personal ethics can't really be a bad thing....
Doll, I can't even afford to go up the coast for a weekend. How am I supposed to get to the States?
Well, what are you basing that statement on? I'm not accusing you of lying, I just don't tend to take statements like that at face value. What have you based this opinion on? Feel free to relate a story...
Really? How come?
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Except the women who die.
Who brought morality into it? I've been talking mortality. It's an invasive surgery done with little to no governing medical standard in an alleged "women's health clinic".
If as many women died of liposuction, liposuction would have been outlawed years ago.
It's still a perforated uterus. A uterus is an organ. There is no such creature as a minor perforation in an organ. Unless this is another of those anomalies that only happens in Australia.
No a "minor" perforation is like a little hole in the heart.
I said: " Even though an OB/GYN is a specialist." You replied:
Are you telling me an OB/GYN isn't specailized to deal with uterine emergencies?
Over here OB/GYN isn't a creditial one needs to be a butcher. I have never ever heard of a dentist perforating the top of a patient's mouth "by accident" and then proceed to "accidentally" pull nasal tissue through the hole.
I've never heard of a single instance of bowel being sucked out during liposuction. I've never heard of a plastic surgeon being sent to jail or having their liscence suspended for repeated "accidents" either. Please keep in mind before you start giving examples, we are talking about gross negligence, like we find in an abortuary.
It's sad you are so in need to support the murder of children in the womb, the women who DO KNOW they are bleeding to death yet get no assistance from the butcher or his associates will be pushed asside merely for you to make your point.
Bruce Steir's motive was to save his liscence, not his victim's life. He isn't the only example, just one of the latest ones.
In the cases of implanted foriegn matter after surgery, the hospital and all involved usually get sued after the evidence has been removed from the plaintiff. But a hospital knowingly sending a patient with internal bleeding home? No, I've never heard of such a thing. I bet the insurance companies and trial lawyers would love to talk to you about all the ones you know about though.
I'd say to the same degree you don't understand the nature of a butcher.
Yes you are. You are trying to paint burchers like Steir as responsible physicians.
No, I don't. I think accidents happen in the practice of medicine. In a hospital, where people go to get real medical help and healing, the seconds count. I further believe the hospital will do everything within their power to preserve the life of their patients and make sure as far as humanly possible they are as whole as they can be before being released by the doctors.
None of this speaks to an abortuary or the butchers.
I think you don't know what OB/GYNs are trained in. When it suits your argument they are skilled enough to take on a perforated uterus, and when it doesn't suit your argument they aren't capable of taking care of a hole in a uterus.
On December 13, 1996, Dr. Steir performed an abortion on a woman named Sharon Hamptlon at a Moreno Valley clinic. According to the testimony of a medical professional assisting in the procedure, at one point Steir's facial expression changed and he said that he had "pulled bowel." Ms. Hamptlon's uterus had been punctured. Steir left the clinic to catch a plane back to San Francisco before the injured woman was released. She died later that day.
I'd say he was negligent concerning the complications he created, so did the court. And... he isn't the only one. So dream freely in the fantasy world you have created to make it ok to murder unborn children, cuz out here in reality, it's way more cruel than you want to believe.
Free-Agent Smith
New member
On this one my experience will remain my own.
Because here in the U.S. doctors who perform abortions tend to be looked down upon and try to hide the fact that they are performing them.
firechyld
New member
And how often does that actually happen?
Seriously, I'm asking. Can you find that information?
Yes, which puts it in the same bracket as any other invasive surgical procedure.
Is this something you can prove happens? Again, I'm asking quite seriously. I asked Agent Smith if he could prove that "most people performing abortions aren't doctors", and he couldn't. I'm not saying that that proves it isn't true, but I'd like something a little more concrete than your opinion. Bear in mind that my country deals with abortion very differently from yours.
Again, can I get some actual verifiable figures here?
You've never heard the term "minor perferation" in the context of surgery?
Here's the results of a google search using those terms.
Clearly it's not something I just made up.
It's a term used by medical practitioners.
No, I'm not telling you that. I'm telling you that they're not specialised to deal with all the complications that can arise during this manner of surgery.
This is a kinda jumping the gun, anyway. I'm still waiting to hear back on how many people providing terminations are actually OB GYNs. As I said, all doctors in Australia who perform terminations are OB GYNs... if this isn't the case in the US, then clearly the situation regarding complications is different.
Again, I'm not disbelieving you, but do you have any evidence of that that I could see? I know it's a little tricky to prove that something isn't the case, but any supporting text you could link to would be appreciated.
You're comparing completely different kinds of surgery and expecting the complications to be the same. A plastic surgeon may not "suck" one organ into another.... but you're not going to get an OB GYN permanently destroying your skin infrastructure, either. Different kinds of surgery have different risks. Both of these examples are complications that could be the result of negligence, and could simply be the result of the risky business that is a surgical procedure.
We weren't talking about gross negligence. We were specifically NOT talking about gross negligence. Until this point, we were discussing complications that arise out of factors related to the risks of surgery, not of screw-ups.
But if you want to talk about negligence, I'm not denying that it happens. I'm not even denying that it happens regularly. I AM denying that it is restricted to termination procedures, and I AM denying that all complications arising during a termination are the result of negligence.
Again, how often does this happen? It's not something I've ever heard of in real life... however, I again need to point out that termination in Australia and termination in America seem to be very different things.
As they should.
Do hosptials/clinics regularly do this after women have terminations? Can you prove it, or are you just facilitating the spread of an urban legend?
The fact that you describe them as "butchers" indicates that you don't, either. Do you honestly think that doctors who perform terminations leap up every morning thinking "Woohoo! Another day full of the slaughter of innocent babies! I love my life!"
I really doubt it.
No, I'm not. I'm pointing out that a responsible physician is perfectly capable of having complications arise during surgery, and that complications are not necessarily proof of negligence. I'm also awaiting some verifiable facts on several points you and Smith have made... that many people performing terminations are not doctors, that many women die as a results of termination complications, that women are regularly sent home from terminations when those operating on her know that she's haemorraging... etc. I'm honestly interested. Since these things clearly aren't happening in my country, I'm forced to assume that either they are urban myths, or that American abortion policy is seriously inferior to Australian.
I think that most doctors hold the same beliefs, even if they operate out of a small clinic rather than a fully staffed hospital.
Untrue. There is a point where a reconstructive surgeon is required.
Besides, even if a specific OB GYN is qualified to take care of every complication, that doesn't mean that their small clinic has all the resources required to allow full care. Rushing a complications victim to a major hospital is often just as much about getting them to better facilities and resources as about changing doctors.
[/quoteOn December 13, 1996, Dr. Steir performed an abortion on a woman named Sharon Hamptlon at a Moreno Valley clinic. According to the testimony of a medical professional assisting in the procedure, at one point Steir's facial expression changed and he said that he had "pulled bowel." Ms. Hamptlon's uterus had been punctured. Steir left the clinic to catch a plane back to San Francisco before the injured woman was released. She died later that day.
I'd say he was negligent concerning the complications he created, so did the court. [/quote]
And based on this information, I'd agree with you.... he was negligent regarding the complication and it's aftermath, not necessarily because the complication occured in the first place. He should have been held responsible, and from the sound of it he was. However, I don't have all the information, so that's as far as I'll go with the agreement. I don't tend to form opinions on people's actions without having all the available data.
He isn't the only what? Doctor who has had complications occur during surgery? Or doctor who mistakenly believes that a patient has been adequately treated? I don't see how this story supports your "mentality of a butcher" argument. The man made a mistake, which was tragically costly.
I've never said it's "OK to murder unborn children". Stop putting words in my mouth and stop misquoting my position.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Way more than "casual contact" STDs.
Now you need to explain since it is such an invasive medical procedure, why they aren't prepared for emergencies, just like every other invasive medical procedure.
Here is a link with a few instances. You can research the information given from there. I want you to note as you read this, any regulations for an abortuary are fought in court. So the regs that are in place are there because the state forced them.
I don't know of anyone dying from liposuction. So you will have to look that up for yourself.
Did you notice they are things to be fixed? It's "minor" as opposed to "major" but not something to be ignored, like Steir did.
It's not surgery, it's butchery. With their claims of how "safe" murder is, they aren't able to take care of these emergencies. You still don't want to understand the point do you? That a "woman's health clinic" that promises "safe" murder isn't able to take care of these "complications" that arise because of the butchery.
I'd like to see where Australia has that demand on butchers myself. Here butchery is mostly handled as a "class" that can be opted out of.
Me?
You are the one needing to bring up Dentistry, etc. to make your point.
I can see why you wouldn't want to, but that's how women die at the abortuary.
Good. Progress!
Did you read about the real Butcher Steir? For crying out loud, get your head out of the sand.
I agree. Link for those who may need to sue over an abortion injury.
Do a Google search on "botched abortions". It would be much easier than posting all the links.
No, I don't think that at all, in fact I think the opposite. Want some testimonies?
Former butchers
Another former butcher
They don't even provide basic care, especially with RU486. If they aren't able to handle it, the best for all involved is to close them.
6 months. Out in 4. Yeah... that should teach him...
Google his name.
For real! LOL A mistake?! One doesn't "flee" the scene of a "mistake".
He left knowing he had pulled bowel into her uterus. And he "isn't sorry". Anyway, read the links for the former butchers, seems their mind set, while a little better than Steir, wasn't far off.
Oh, so you are prolife now? Since when?