Another Brilliant Idea from PlannedBarrenHood

[Free-Agent Smith]

You said:

Is this something you can prove happens? Again, I'm asking quite seriously. I asked Agent Smith if he could prove that "most people performing abortions aren't doctors", and he couldn't. I'm not saying that that proves it isn't true, but I'd like something a little more concrete than your opinion. Bear in mind that my country deals with abortion very differently from yours.

Here are some statistics-> Link

 

[Free-Agent Smith]

Originally posted by firechyld



Then how do women find these doctors if they're after the procedure?

They contact places like Planned Parenthood.

 

[firechyld]

Originally posted by Nineveh

Way more than "casual contact" STDs.

*sigh*

Are you going to actually provide me with information backing up your position, or are you going to (again) give me the runaround with "witty" comments that prove nothing?

Now you need to explain since it is such an invasive medical procedure, why they aren't prepared for emergencies, just like every other invasive medical procedure.

Any surgery that isn't performed in a hospital runs the risk of being unprepared for all complications. No small specialised clinic, regardless of what services they offer, can possibly offer the resources of a full ER.

If terminations were being performed in hospitals, these resources would be closer.

Here is a link with a few instances. You can research the information given from there. I want you to note as you read this, any regulations for an abortuary are fought in court. So the regs that are in place are there because the state forced them.

If that's accurate, it's pretty retarded.

I'm a little cautious about taking information from clearly biased sites at face value. I don't blindly accept information from pro-choice sites without verification, so I'm not going to do it for the pro-life material either.

However, you have provided me with what I asked for. I appreciate it, and I'll attempt to verify the information myself. The site has included specific legislation, so that shouldn't be too difficult.

Did you notice they are things to be fixed? It's "minor" as opposed to "major" but not something to be ignored, like Steir did.

I never said it should be ignored. Quite the contrary. You just objected to my use of the word "minor", although I believe it was used in context.

It's not surgery, it's butchery. With their claims of how "safe" murder is, they aren't able to take care of these emergencies. You still don't want to understand the point do you? That a "woman's health clinic" that promises "safe" murder isn't able to take care of these "complications" that arise because of the butchery.

No, it's surgery. It's a surgical procedure. Whether it's "morally wrong" or not is irrelevant to that fact... by definition, a termination is a surgical procedure.

Oh, and do you have a reference in which a termination facility offers a guarantee of a completely safe procedure? In Australia, the risks are made quite clear before one undergoes the surgery.

I'd like to see where Australia has that demand on butchers myself. Here butchery is mostly handled as a "class" that can be opted out of.

What do you mean by "demand"? Over here, termination is just another service offered by some OB GYNs, but not by non-OB GYNs. *shrug* We don't really have an abortion debate. At all.

Me?

You are the one needing to bring up Dentistry, etc. to make your point.

I'm pointing out that complications arise in any form of surgery. You seem to think that this is a moot point unless the complications are identical. Well, that's just not going to be the case unless the surgeries are also identical.

I can see why you wouldn't want to, but that's how women die at the abortuary.

Give me figures. How many women in any given year have died because of complications during a pregnancy termination that can be specifically tied to "gross negligence" on the part of the surgeon?

And don't bring up the "liberal conspiracy". It's laughable.

Did you read about the real Butcher Steir? For crying out loud, get your head out of the sand.

Again, I asked you for specific information, and you give me the runaround... this time with insults.

How many women in a given year were sent home after a pregnancy termination when the people operating on her knew that she was bleeding internally?

I'm sorry, but it sounds like an urban legend to me. Why would people performing these procedures in a country which is in the middle of the biggest abortion debate on the planet act in such a way, when it clearly undermines the acceptability of their position? Why would they knowingly give such ammunition to the pro-life movement? More importantly, why would they willingly and knowingly let women die when their main motivation appears to be providing a service that they consider to be the right of that woman?

I agree. Link for those who may need to sue over an abortion injury.

Ooh... that's quite clever of them. Pro-life propaganda cunningly disguised as a service for women who are clearly pro-choice. I like it.

[

They don't even provide basic care, especially with RU486. If they aren't able to handle it, the best for all involved is to close them.

Ah, I see. You only want the clinics closed because they aren't providing a full service. I'm sure once they're closed you'll be perfectly happy for public hospitals to start offering terminations.

6 months. Out in 4. Yeah... that should teach him...

*shrug* He didn't get a huge sentence. He was still held responsible for his actions. It's a start.

For real! LOL A mistake?! One doesn't "flee" the scene of a "mistake".

I see nothing to suggest that he fled the scene. He may have thought that she was going to be fine. It wouldn't be the first time a doctor made that mistake.

Do you know what his reason for going to San Francisco was? The purpose of the trip, not what you'd like to think he was thinking.

He left knowing he had pulled bowel into her uterus. And he "isn't sorry". Anyway, read the links for the former butchers, seems their mind set, while a little better than Steir, wasn't far off.

Not being sorry isn't right. But it's still entirely possible that he thought the problem had been rectified. It's not like he wandered off while she was still on the operating table... she was in recovery.

Oh, so you are prolife now? Since when?

I never said I was pro-life, either. But I don't "think it's OK to murder unborn babies." There are so many facets of that sentence that I disagree with.

 

[firechyld]

Originally posted by Agent Smith

You said:


Here are some statistics-> Link

Thanks for that.

They contact places like Planned Parenthood.

Oh, OK. Is that the only way to get in touch with someone who'll perform a termination? You can't just get referred through a GP?

 

[aharvey]

Originally posted by Agent Smith

You said:


Here are some statistics-> Link

Agent Smith,

I'm confused. Nowhere does that link provide any statistics that back up your claim that "most people performing abortions aren't doctors." It says that abortion providers are becoming scarcer and scarcer.

 

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by firechyld

*sigh*

Are you going to actually provide me with information backing up your position, or are you going to (again) give me the runaround with "witty" comments that prove nothing?

I can't give you stats on legal abortion costing lives, I can only provide you instances where it has. Plannedbarrenhood doesn't like those stats, so good luck finding them.

If terminations were being performed in hospitals, these resources would be closer.

That's a really good argument to close the abortuaries.

I never said it should be ignored. Quite the contrary. You just objected to my use of the word "minor", although I believe it was used in context.

You argued that "minor perforations" are taken care of by the attending butcher. In the medical world I don't take issue with the many ways they describe a wound. However, your use was trying to down play the injuries that occur in abortuaries. To be quite honest, I don't believe they are equiped to take care of any emergency complications. In fact, the more I read from former abortuary workers, the more sure of that I am.

No, it's surgery. It's a surgical procedure. Whether it's "morally wrong" or not is irrelevant to that fact... by definition, a termination is a surgical procedure.

You are the only one who keeps bringing morals into this discussion.

Oh, and do you have a reference in which a termination facility offers a guarantee of a completely safe procedure? In Australia, the risks are made quite clear before one undergoes the surgery.

I bet thay are now. Especially after losing the informed concent suit. Of course they tell victims there are minimal risks, but that is secondary to how safe it is now that it's legal. We don't have informed concent across the board here.

What do you mean by "demand"? Over here, termination is just another service offered by some OB GYNs, but not by non-OB GYNs. *shrug* We don't really have an abortion debate. At all.

I was trying to look up the requirements for those who butcher in Austrailia, it seems you guys basically acquiesce to Brittish law on the issue.

I'm pointing out that complications arise in any form of surgery. You seem to think that this is a moot point unless the complications are identical. Well, that's just not going to be the case unless the surgeries are also identical.

I'm sorry the other medical procedures you wanted to bring up don't have the same risks or the same degree of risks. Maybe you need to pick better type of procedures to use in your examples.

Something along the lines of a "blind" elective surgery.

Give me figures. How many women in any given year have died because of complications during a pregnancy termination that can be specifically tied to "gross negligence" on the part of the surgeon?

Steir for sure. But I dare you to find stats like that. The closest I could give you would be the resulting lawsuits. And even then, only as I come across them.

It's odd... Almost any health related issue can be found at the CDC, including the stats for mortality, but the info for abortion is conspicuously missing.

And don't bring up the "liberal conspiracy". It's laughable.

The info on mortality related to abortion stops at 1998/1999 according to the CDC. Liberal conspiracy? Nah.. I think plannedbarrenhood isn't willing to share info.

Again, I asked you for specific information, and you give me the runaround... this time with insults.

From former abortuaty workers I have read where one butcher hospitalized about one victim a month. But of course, that's ancidotal. These stats don't exist. Now, either you can believe it's because no one ever gets mamed or dies, -OR- there is some silence on this issue that is deafening.

I'm sorry, but it sounds like an urban legend to me.

It sounds like you don't really want to know.

Why would people performing these procedures in a country which is in the middle of the biggest abortion debate on the planet act in such a way, when it clearly undermines the acceptability of their position?

Steir did it because he was already on probation since 1988.

Why would they knowingly give such ammunition to the pro-life movement?

What ammo? You mean all those stats anyone can look up and read? Steir got 4 months for murder. Even when a butcher is caught red handed it means little in the debate, because the very most important thing of all is "a woman's right to choose murder". The reality isn't all that important.

More importantly, why would they willingly and knowingly let women die when their main motivation appears to be providing a service that they consider to be the right of that woman?

Like I said, in Steir's case it was to cover his own bottom.

Ooh... that's quite clever of them. Pro-life propaganda cunningly disguised as a service for women who are clearly pro-choice. I like it.

Obviously you would make light of how hard it actually is for mamed women to recieve damages using the law.

*shrug* He didn't get a huge sentence. He was still held responsible for his actions. It's a start.

A "start" for what? Four months for gross neglegence. Sounds like it's a start for less penalty for murder to me.

"In an interview with the publication Inland Empire, Steir said, "My incarceration proved nothing." He maintained he was guilty only of failing "to make the diagnosis of her (Hamptlon's) condition."

(Even though during the procedure he said, "I think I pulled bowel" then got on a plane and left)

"I'm absolutely not sorry," he told the Inland Empire. "I'm sorry I ended up in jail. I'm sorry I had to surrender my license and I'm sorry a woman died. I would like not to have done that abortion that day." cite

I see nothing to suggest that he fled the scene. He may have thought that she was going to be fine. It wouldn't be the first time a doctor made that mistake.

I hope you read that whole cited link above. Your statement sounds ludicrous compared to the events.

I never said I was pro-life, either. But I don't "think it's OK to murder unborn babies." There are so many facets of that sentence that I disagree with.

When isn't it "ok" to murder the unborn in your view?

For your edification, I am going to post this link about Joy Davis. Of course, you are free to discount her witness of events. I Googled her name and have not come accross any info discounting her story, however.

 

[Free-Agent Smith]

Originally posted by aharvey

Agent Smith,

I'm confused. Nowhere does that link provide any statistics that back up your claim that "most people performing abortions aren't doctors." It says that abortion providers are becoming scarcer and scarcer.

That is my mistake I found out later that even though the doctors who perform abortions are becoming scarce, 43 states require a licensed physican to perform or at least be present.

 

[Free-Agent Smith]

Originally posted by firechyld

Oh, OK. Is that the only way to get in touch with someone who'll perform a termination? You can't just get referred through a GP?

I don't know of any general practioner that would refer anyone to an abortionist. Then again I don't know them all.