"|all you have to do is believe in Jesus".. Huh?

[glorydaz]

In agreement

Oh, so a gentile can follow his conscience and manage to be justified before God? You'd best read what Paul is saying in Romans before you let the blind lead you to some other passage of scripture.

 

[HisServant]

Oh, so a gentile can follow his conscience and manage to be justified before God? You'd best read what Paul is saying in Romans before you let the blind lead you to some other passage of scripture.

I think its interesting that 'God's Untruth' says on one hand, the Jews had the laws in their hands but for some reason, God was unable to write them on the minds of the Jews.. but he was able to for the Gentiles.

It appears someone does not know about the Holy Spirit.

 

[glorydaz]

I agree, he is talking about the law of Moses. He is saying we are saved by faith and not by works "of the law", the law of Moses could not forgive sins. In Galatians he makes it clear that if you choose to follow the law (Mosaical) you have fallen from grace.

Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Sure is convenient for you to go verse hopping to find verses you hope will agree with you. :chuckle:

Return to where you started....in Romans. Was Abraham circumcised when faith was reckoned to him for righteousness. NO, he was not. The "law of Moses" had not yet been given.

Romans 4:9-10 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.​

 

[j4jesus09]

Oh, so a gentile can follow his conscience and manage to be justified before God? You'd best read what Paul is saying in Romans before you let the blind lead you to some other passage of scripture.

I was simply agreeing with the statement that was made.

I agree, he is talking about the law of Moses. He is saying we are saved by faith and not by works "of the law", the law of Moses could not forgive sins. In Galatians he makes it clear that if you choose to follow the law (Mosaical) you have fallen from grace.

Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Did you not agree with this? What part?

 

[glorydaz]

I think its interesting that 'God's Untruth' says on one hand, the Jews had the laws in their hands but for some reason, God was unable to write them on the minds of the Jews.. but he was able to for the Gentiles.

It appears someone does not know about the Holy Spirit.

Yeah, God's UNtruth is typical of all workers. They confuse the obedience of commandments (doing) with the obedience of faith (believing unto righteousness). If they knew about the Holy Spirit, they'd be giving Him the credit for what HE does rather than claim credit for their own "doing".

 

[serpentdove]

I strive to believe in the Jesus who actually "walked his talk" and did not mince words or segue into theological concepts that were developed long after he died and placed into his mouth.



--Love your enemies.

--Forgive and you will be forgiven.

--Give to everyone who begs of you.

--Someone steals your clothing? Give them shirt off your back.

--Pray for those who persecute you (terrorists persecute many).

--The family is dead. True family are those who know the will of the Father and do it...

Strive--good word. These fat and happies aren't going to make it (Heb 12:14).

 

[glorydaz]

I was simply agreeing with the statement that was made.

I agree, he is talking about the law of Moses. He is saying we are saved by faith and not by works "of the law", the law of Moses could not forgive sins. In Galatians he makes it clear that if you choose to follow the law (Mosaical) you have fallen from grace.

Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Did you not agree with this? What part?

That's fine for what Paul is saying in Galatians, but we were not discussing Galatians. So, when you agreed with that poster, you were missing out on what he was claiming concerning what Paul is saying in Romans....where he included the gentiles by saying the "work of the law" was written in their conscience. Thus NO MAN....all flesh are guilty before God under God's eternal law.

Gentiles who sought to be justified by claiming a clear conscience were just as guilty as the Jews were under the law of Moses.

Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Romans 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Romans 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?​

 

[j4jesus09]

Yeah, God's UNtruth is typical of all workers. They confuse the obedience of commandments (doing) with the obedience of faith (believing unto righteousness). If they knew about the Holy Spirit, they'd be giving Him the credit for what HE does rather than claim credit for their own "doing".

If they believe they must do works for salvation let them. Eventually they will get tired as all of us have once or twice tried to live perfect and found out we couldn't. We must allow the holy spirit to step in and say I GOT THIS!

 

[glorydaz]

True, but through proper faith expressed in your works you are keeping the whole law. Faith alone produces the works. I think the issue with works is people are examining the works to see what the faith is and that's okay. One should. If the works are not expressing the proper faith then one would question what their faith is in. Overally, faith is the only thing that saves us. The proper faith produces proper works. Does this make since. We can't do any good though without God.

Romans 3:28&31
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

What law is Paul talking about?

Here is the verse and here is the exchange. Are you telling me that Paul says we "establish" the Law of Moses?

What he's talking about is that we establish the PURPOSE of the law...which was to prove all men guilty before our holy and righteous God. His law is written in the hearts of all men....they are without excuse.

 

[j4jesus09]

That's fine for what Paul is saying in Galatians, but we were not discussing Galatians. So, when you agreed with that poster, you were missing out on what he was claiming concerning what Paul is saying in Romans....where he included the gentiles by saying the "work of the law" was written in their conscience. Thus NO MAN....all flesh are guilty before God under God's eternal law.

Gentiles who sought to be justified by claiming a clear conscience were just as guilty as the Jews were under the law of Moses.

Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Romans 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Romans 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?​

Okay, well sorry. lol I see where both sides are coming from. At the end of the day I believe God works in us and if others haven't come to that understanding at least do what God says. Thats more honorable then what the world is doing. Whoever turbo is he or she is trying to serve the Lord. That is a good thing. The revelation on knowledge will come. I think we should all be open to everyone's perspective as long as it's not condescending. No scoffing, mocking, or ridcule from my end. Hopefully it can be mutual.

 

[j4jesus09]

Here is the verse and here is the exchange. Are you telling me that Paul says we "establish" the Law of Moses?

What he's talking about is that we establish the PURPOSE of the law...which was to prove all men guilty before our holy and righteous God. His law is written in the hearts of all men....they are without excuse.

I see what you're saying. I believe there are two laws written in men though. Paul was talking about their was another law in his members in Romans 9 I believe. The other is of the flesh. That is why we must be born again and receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[glorydaz]

If they believe they must do works for salvation let them. Eventually they will get tired as all of us have once or twice tried to live perfect and found out we couldn't. We must allow the holy spirit to step in and say I GOT THIS!

They can believe what they want, of course, but when they preach it they are to be cursed. What keeps people away from God if not this idea that we have to perform what we know deep inside we cannot do? They end up giving up..."Why bother to try, I know I can't stop sinning?"

God does not offer us a gift with strings, and those who add them need to be stopped from preaching their NOT GOOD NEWS.

 

[serpentdove]

According to that list of rules, none will make it into heaven.....least of all the hypocrites who claim they do all those things.

That's the point. :dizzy: Re 3:4

"They fashion a god and a gospel after their own fond notions and then they dream that they have reached the summit of wisdom! They refuse to go to school to learn Christ and when He says, “Except you are converted and become as little children, you shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of God,” they turn from Him with disdain! They know quite enough and are resolved to learn no more." ~ Charles Spurgeon, Sermon #1473 Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit 1

Don't hate me because I'm beautifully born again.

See:

Enduring to the End

 

[HisServant]

They can believe what they want, of course, but when they preach it they are to be cursed. What keeps people away from God if not this idea that we have to perform what we know deep inside we cannot do? They end up giving up..."Why bother to try, I know I can't stop sinning?"

God does not offer us a gift with strings, and those who add them need to be stopped from preaching their NOT GOOD NEWS.

Or maybe we should have confidence that the Holy Spirit will work within the believer to regenerate them to the point where they stop doing the sins that the Holy Spirit wants to stop and in the process help others and become a good witness for him.

If you continue to teach obedience, all you are doing is teaching fear and loathing and not edifying the person. And I believe that this harping on someones interpretation of obedience is what causes the Christian community to fracture because they start believing they are better than the people that do not act the way they do.

 

[serpentdove]

Salvation is a state of being, not just an initial event.

It requires a consummation (Ro 3:26, 10:4).

If you're the real deal, your life will show it (1 Pet. 1:15, Jn 15:8).

 

[glorydaz]

Okay, well sorry. lol I see where both sides are coming from. At the end of the day I believe God works in us and if others haven't come to that understanding at least do what God says. Thats more honorable then what the world is doing. Whoever turbo is he or she is trying to serve the Lord. That is a good thing. The revelation on knowledge will come. I think we should all be open to everyone's perspective as long as it's not condescending. No scoffing, mocking, or ridcule from my end. Hopefully it can be mutual.

Well, the Jews were "trying to serve the Lord", too, and they sought to do so by their own efforts. Actually, they were quite proud of their obedience. Yet Paul's desire and prayer was that they be saved. Having zeal is not enough. "Everyone's perspective" will not save them.

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.​

 

[glorydaz]

Or maybe we should have confidence that the Holy Spirit will work within the believer to regenerate them to the point where they stop doing the sins that the Holy Spirit wants to stop and in the process help others and become a good witness for him.

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

If you continue to teach obedience, all you are doing is teaching fear and loathing and not edifying the person. And I believe that this harping on someones interpretation of obedience is what causes the Christian community to fracture because they start believing they are better than the people that do not act the way they do.

Yeah, there will always be those who say others shouldn't be doing such and such, but rarely do they see what they themselves are doing. It's as though people forget that God sees the inside of the man while men only see the outside.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Like you are? :rotfl:

Unfortunately, if you give a worker an inch, he'll take a mile. There is something in man that insists on taking some of the glory that belongs to God alone. It's known as the pride of life.

So, we refuse to give room to boasting in something that will only lead to more and more pride. The "works" that follow salvation are NOT our own. We don't get saved by our works and our works don't keep us saved. They certainly can get in the way of the work God is doing through us....because we can't resist trying to steal some of the glory.

Just read the posts on this thread and see how impossible it is for people to give up the idea that God is doing the work in us. So, don't be saying we don't know how to explain where "works" come into the picture.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:​

You guys don't know how to say it from the standpoint of the ontological Gospel, Hamartiology, and Atonement; instead only expressing it in fallacious MAD terms that others rightly misunderstand and resist.

They all think you're promoting every allowable indulgence of sin. I know that's not the case, but others need more than flaunting heinous behavior in their faces as provocation and condescension.

Set them free from the law (and law methodology) instead. But first you guys will have to learn the difference between singular/plural and articular/anarthrous hamartia as nouns (though virtually everyone needs to learn that, too).

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

It requires a consummation (Ro 3:26, 10:4).

Yep.

If you're the real deal, your life will show it (1 Pet. 1:15, Jn 15:8).

Yep. But I wouldn't be running around as a fruit inspector.

 

[aikido7]

According to that list of rules, none will make it into heaven.....least of all the hypocrites who claim they do all those things.

Jesus could have cared less about Heaven. Heaven was in good shape and could take care of itself.

It's here on earth where the problems are.