Abortion-a crying shame. (HOF thread)

[TheMindVillage]

Questions for Consideration...Life After Life

Questions for Consideration...Life After Life

Look - I am beginning to be swayed in some ways on the issue of abortion. I do concede that this practice indeed should be snuffed out. However, I have some major concerns that don't seem to be answered by the religious right/Republican majority with any clarity and sincerity. So, allow me to ask the following:

1) Granted that eventually all abortion is outlawed. What shall we do with the children who are born into poverty - thus without healthcare, adequate food, shelter and educational access. Please do not read this as my indicating that we should as a result use abortion as birth control. My question stands solely from the position that most of you are anti-tax/anti-government intrusion with the exception of sexual issues (abortion, gay rights/marriage, etc.)

What quality of life do you value for the child once out of the womb? Is not this culture of life people talk about when discussing abortion relevant after birth? It cannot be as simple as accepting Christ as one's savior and all will be well. That's not practical. So - someone come up with a truly practical approach to these concerns...

2) Awhile back Zakath noted the issue of war and the death penalty. If we agreed to abolish abortive practices, would those on the right be willing to do away with the barbary of the death penalty, extended prison terms that fail to rehabilitate (again a culture of life issue)? Would we consider the notion that NO war will ever be fought unless this country adopts Universal Service - meaning that every man and woman over the age of 18 serves a minimum of 3 years in the service in one capacity or another?

3) What shall we do about sex and the results of teenage pregnancy? Reams of paper have been devoted to the failed approaches of abstinence education...as well as more liberal models of sex education (notice I was fair here). What then shall we do to educate and consequently, how will we handle the population of children born?

4) What will we do about the 250,000 children awaiting adoption but will never see homes or stability because the color of their skin is "wrong". Is foster care the best bet or should we re-implement orphanages?

 

[Lovejoy]

1) Granted that eventually all abortion is outlawed. What shall we do with the children who are born into poverty - thus without healthcare, adequate food, shelter and educational access. Please do not read this as my indicating that we should as a result use abortion as birth control. My question stands solely from the position that most of you are anti-tax/anti-government intrusion with the exception of sexual issues (abortion, gay rights/marriage, etc.)

Not to make too much out of this, but the vast majority of abortions happen amongst white, protestant woman who are over 20 and above the poverty line. While all the things you mentioned are risk factors, they are risk factors in a relatively small group. That means that the greatest amount of "population control" has happened amongst a group that can afford children. In fact it has reduced the white middle class tax pool, which is where we draw the funds to pay for these programs.

This is by no means why I am against abortion, but it is interesting and worrisome.

 

[TheMindVillage]

You know - Have heard that statistic before and I think you are probably accurate there. I think I should be more clear in that my line of questioning hits at the heart of the culture of life stuff bandied about.

To me, respectfully, we do not have a culture of life once children are brought into this world. My concern is really post-operative if you will. And, while I respect those whose beliefs are firm - saying that God will take care of it is terribly irresponsible.

Again, I want to be respectful. I just am interested in hearing the discussion elevated a bit further than pictures of dead babies. We have to begin to think on these things in a more contemplative, sincere, realistic and responsible manner.

Thanks for the post!

 

[Lovejoy]

I would say that was true, if for no other reason than people don't always respond to the direct approach. Some subjects are just about bringing people to Christ. This is about saving children. Some behaviors are between man and God, and thus above legal control. But this is about something very different. If we cannot find a dialogue, and a means to reach these people and give them options, then we are failing millions of children. Millions of millions.

 

[Delmar]

Re: Questions for Consideration...Life After Life

Re: Questions for Consideration...Life After Life

Originally posted by TheMindVillage



2) Awhile back Zakath noted the issue of war and the death penalty. If we agreed to abolish abortive practices, would those on the right be willing to do away with the barbary of the death penalty, extended prison terms that fail to rehabilitate (again a culture of life issue)? Would we consider the notion that NO war will ever be fought unless this country adopts Universal Service - meaning that every man and woman over the age of 18 serves a minimum of 3 years in the service in one capacity or another?

There exists no logical connection between the murder of the innocent and the killing of the guilty! The guilty , By the way, includes our adversary in a just war. Having said that I suspect you are going to want to talk about what makes for a just war and who bears the guilt for the innocent killed in war! Let's talk about that in another thread !

 

[TheMindVillage]

That, ,my friend, only answers part of the question. I can run with that, assuming it is an absolute...

But, I would find it interesting how we cultivate a culture of life after baby is born...

 

[Delmar]

Originally posted by TheMindVillage

That, ,my friend, only answers part of the question. I can run with that, assuming it is an absolute...

But, I would find it interesting how we cultivate a culture of life after baby is born...

Start by teaching them the stark difference between murder and justice! You might also want to revisit the first pages of this thread. It should remind you of the origins of the "culture of death"!

 

[TheMindVillage]

Again, you're answering the question with a reaction and not a logical answer.

The questions posed are those in order to bring some sense of common ground. I AM curious and would love to hear someone not necessarily agree but discuss WHAT we do after a child is born. Platitudes aren't going to help the children 3 blocks away from my door living in squalor.

Respectfully,

TMV

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by TheMindVillage

Platitudes aren't going to help the children 3 blocks away from my door living in squalor.

Perhaps we should round them up, chop them into little pieces, and suck them through a vacuum cleaner.

 

[Lovejoy]

Originally posted by Sozo

Perhaps we should round them up, chop them into little pieces, and suck them through a vacuum cleaner.

:shocked:


Oh, wait, they actually do that...

 

[Delmar]

Originally posted by TheMindVillage

Again, you're answering the question with a reaction and not a logical answer.

The questions posed are those in order to bring some sense of common ground. I AM curious and would love to hear someone not necessarily agree but discuss WHAT we do after a child is born. Platitudes aren't going to help the children 3 blocks away from my door living in squalor.

Respectfully,

TMV

Your disagrement does not make my answer illogical. It is the job of the parents to see that their children don't live in squalor.

 

[TheMindVillage]

Too bad, Sozo, you did not read the context of my questions.

One liners demean your intelligence...pray tell - anyone out there who is willing and able to answer the questions without delving into meaningless phrases?

 

[Delmar]

Originally posted by TheMindVillage

Too bad, Sozo, you did not read the context of my questions.

One liners demean your intelligence...pray tell - anyone out there who is willing and able to answer the questions without delving into meaningless phrases?

somtimes they demean the wicked who chop babys into little pieces, and suck them through a vacuum cleaner.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by TheMindVillage

Too bad, Sozo, you did not read the context of my questions.

One liners demean your intelligence...pray tell - anyone out there who is willing and able to answer the questions without delving into meaningless phrases?

It's quite simple, MindlessVillage.... Shall we kill all the parentless children in Africa, because we have no one to meet their needs. What does abortion have to do with the tragedies that effect a nation, a city, a home? You think because we don't want to kill children, that we have a cure for all diseases and natural disasters?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Questions for Consideration...Life After Life

Re: Questions for Consideration...Life After Life

Originally posted by TheMindVillage

Look - I am beginning to be swayed in some ways on the issue of abortion. I do concede that this practice indeed should be snuffed out. However, I have some major concerns that don't seem to be answered by the religious right/Republican majority with any clarity and sincerity. So, allow me to ask the following:

1) Granted that eventually all abortion is outlawed. What shall we do with the children who are born into poverty - thus without healthcare, adequate food, shelter and educational access. Please do not read this as my indicating that we should as a result use abortion as birth control. My question stands solely from the position that most of you are anti-tax/anti-government intrusion with the exception of sexual issues (abortion, gay rights/marriage, etc.)

What quality of life do you value for the child once out of the womb? Is not this culture of life people talk about when discussing abortion relevant after birth? It cannot be as simple as accepting Christ as one's savior and all will be well. That's not practical. So - someone come up with a truly practical approach to these concerns...

If abortion is murder (which it is) then it is still murder regardless of the reason behind committing the crime.

No one ever claimed life would be easy. Some people are poor, some unhealthy, some underprivileged in other ways..... yet these are not justifiable reasons for murdering these people.

Furthermore....
There are countless cases of people who were NOT aborted that were born underprivileged yet found a way to live a happy life. We cannot predetermine a persons life worth.

You continue...

2) Awhile back Zakath noted the issue of war and the death penalty. If we agreed to abolish abortive practices, would those on the right be willing to do away with the barbary of the death penalty, extended prison terms that fail to rehabilitate (again a culture of life issue)? Would we consider the notion that NO war will ever be fought unless this country adopts Universal Service - meaning that every man and woman over the age of 18 serves a minimum of 3 years in the service in one capacity or another?

Lets see if you can figure this out....

There is a difference between killing and murdering. It is completely consistent to be pro-life AND pro capital punishment. Innocent life should be protected so much so that those that wish to take the life of the innocent should be put to death.

You continue....

3) What shall we do about sex and the results of teenage pregnancy? Reams of paper have been devoted to the failed approaches of abstinence education...as well as more liberal models of sex education (notice I was fair here). What then shall we do to educate and consequently, how will we handle the population of children born?

I can tell you what we shouldn't do and that is murder innocent babies for the simple charge of having their parents be teenagers.

Tell me...
What right do we have to murder people for the charge of having teenage parents?

You continue....

4) What will we do about the 250,000 children awaiting adoption but will never see homes or stability because the color of their skin is "wrong". Is foster care the best bet or should we re-implement orphanages?

Again... I can tell you what we shouldn't do.... we shouldn't murder them!

Tell me...
Based on the logic of your question it seems you are suggesting adoption should be illegal and anyone considering giving their child up for adoption should be forced to have an abortion. Is that what you are suggesting?

 

[TheMindVillage]

No it is not. If you derived that from what I was asking, I was not clear - I apologize.

I am driving at this culture of life that is omnipresent on the right and in other circles.

While we could debate the start of life, I am being won over in this regard.

However, it IS an obvious decision that you throw the cards (children) up to chance. I am not so sure that the controlled variables - in this case extreme poverty - can be compared to being 'unhealthy' as you say. In fact, that seems awfully callous - with little regard to the reality real people live each day...I would agree that if we start with the premise that abortion is murder it is a non-negotiable, but with many parts.

Where most of you stop in your argument is further developing out the concept of a culture of life. What is it? So we end the practice of abortion...then what? In your ideal world of anti-taxes, no abortion, no public schools, no government funded anything - who gains and who loses? Am I saying by virtue of these questions we should have abortions to avert such societal calamity. No. I AM saying that as the wealthiest and greatest nation in the world - is there any excuse that we have children living in some (not all) cases in such horrific poverty they cannot get a meal, an education? Is it any surprise there is a cycle of violence? Is this something we just is the work of "Satan" and place in God's hands (an easy out)...

Thus, it is as much an issue that needs to be dealt with from a social science perspective.

As much as you want to write off liberals as intellectual snobs who are worthless, pond-sucking scum who have no regard for life - some of you might try reasoning out the issues that lie at the base of your argument - the same issues our esteemed President has used ad nauseum - that main argument being "we need to cultivate a culture of life." I say that's AWFULLY empty.

And we still come full-circle...I am still not satisfied as you have made connections to murder, but validate the state's taking of a life (there is also a strong thread that sees no redemption in the prison population - another unfortunate belief). You reject any notion of social assistance, but believe in a culture of life. All I ask is that you help me to understand. Educate me without all the platitudes. (I have heard them all) - it's time to stretch the debate beyond the tired (and non-working) tenets...

Peace.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by TheMindVillage

No it is not. If you derived that from what I was asking, I was not clear - I apologize.

I am driving at this culture of life that is omnipresent on the right and in other circles.

While we could debate the start of life, I am being won over in this regard.

However, it IS an obvious decision that you throw the cards (children) up to chance. I am not so sure that the controlled variables - in this case extreme poverty - can be compared to being 'unhealthy' as you say. In fact, that seems awfully callous - with little regard to the reality real people live each day...I would agree that if we start with the premise that abortion is murder it is a non-negotiable, but with many parts.

Where most of you stop in your argument is further developing out the concept of a culture of life. What is it? So we end the practice of abortion...then what? In your ideal world of anti-taxes, no abortion, no public schools, no government funded anything - who gains and who loses? Am I saying by virtue of these questions we should have abortions to avert such societal calamity. No. I AM saying that as the wealthiest and greatest nation in the world - is there any excuse that we have children living in some (not all) cases in such horrific poverty they cannot get a meal, an education? Is it any surprise there is a cycle of violence? Is this something we just is the work of "Satan" and place in God's hands (an easy out)...

Thus, it is as much an issue that needs to be dealt with from a social science perspective.

As much as you want to write off liberals as intellectual snobs who are worthless, pond-sucking scum who have no regard for life - some of you might try reasoning out the issues that lie at the base of your argument - the same issues our esteemed President has used ad nauseum - that main argument being "we need to cultivate a culture of life." I say that's AWFULLY empty.

And we still come full-circle...I am still not satisfied as you have made connections to murder, but validate the state's taking of a life (there is also a strong thread that sees no redemption in the prison population - another unfortunate belief). You reject any notion of social assistance, but believe in a culture of life. All I ask is that you help me to understand. Educate me without all the platitudes. (I have heard them all) - it's time to stretch the debate beyond the tired (and non-working) tenets...

Peace.

You are "all over the board" if you want to discuss I specific topic I would be glad to.

 

[TheMindVillage]

However, it IS an obvious decision that you throw the cards (children) up to chance. I am not so sure that the controlled variables - in this case extreme poverty - can be compared to being 'unhealthy' as you say. In fact, that seems awfully callous - with little regard to the reality real people live each day...I would agree that if we start with the premise that abortion is murder it is a non-negotiable, but with many parts.

Here ya' go. Let's start with the above.

 

[Crow]

Originally posted by TheMindVillage

No it is not. If you derived that from what I was asking, I was not clear - I apologize.

I am driving at this culture of life that is omnipresent on the right and in other circles.

While we could debate the start of life, I am being won over in this regard.

However, it IS an obvious decision that you throw the cards (children) up to chance. I am not so sure that the controlled variables - in this case extreme poverty - can be compared to being 'unhealthy' as you say. In fact, that seems awfully callous - with little regard to the reality real people live each day...I would agree that if we start with the premise that abortion is murder it is a non-negotiable, but with many parts.

Where most of you stop in your argument is further developing out the concept of a culture of life. What is it? So we end the practice of abortion...then what? In your ideal world of anti-taxes, no abortion, no public schools, no government funded anything - who gains and who loses? Am I saying by virtue of these questions we should have abortions to avert such societal calamity. No. I AM saying that as the wealthiest and greatest nation in the world - is there any excuse that we have children living in some (not all) cases in such horrific poverty they cannot get a meal, an education? Is it any surprise there is a cycle of violence? Is this something we just is the work of "Satan" and place in God's hands (an easy out)...

Thus, it is as much an issue that needs to be dealt with from a social science perspective.

As much as you want to write off liberals as intellectual snobs who are worthless, pond-sucking scum who have no regard for life - some of you might try reasoning out the issues that lie at the base of your argument - the same issues our esteemed President has used ad nauseum - that main argument being "we need to cultivate a culture of life." I say that's AWFULLY empty.

And we still come full-circle...I am still not satisfied as you have made connections to murder, but validate the state's taking of a life (there is also a strong thread that sees no redemption in the prison population - another unfortunate belief). You reject any notion of social assistance, but believe in a culture of life. All I ask is that you help me to understand. Educate me without all the platitudes. (I have heard them all) - it's time to stretch the debate beyond the tired (and non-working) tenets...

Peace.

I am only speaking for myself here, but I do not cultivate a culture of life. I cultivate a culture of innocent life.

I do not advocate life for a deliberate murderer.

Abortion ends an innocent human life. The death penalty does not.

As far as social assistance, I reject the idea that it should be involuntary. I believe that each person should decide what charitable causes he or she will support.

 

[TheMindVillage]

Respectfully, Crow - I must offer up the following:

Disagree as you might - the reason abortion or murder is often lost on people is the notion that those on the right seem to have little concern after birth. In other words - why wouldn't you want to cultivate such a culture of life? The very death penalty you reference often comes after a long string of incidences in life ranging back to childhood in which deviance was learned through environment and criminal behavior was exalted...add extreme poverty and you have a cycle of violence...so when does it stop?

Do people actually want to care? Or is the practice of abortion more an assault on the senses than children freezing to death, not enough to eat, their school falling apart, and criminal behavior occurring in the home? IT IS our problem - I contend and is a part of this culture of innocent life.