Abortion-a crying shame. (HOF thread)

Crow

New member
Originally posted by TheMindVillage

Respectfully, Crow - I must offer up the following:

Disagree as you might - the reason abortion or murder is often lost on people is the notion that those on the right seem to have little concern after birth. In other words - why wouldn't you want to cultivate such a culture of life? The very death penalty you reference often comes after a long string of incidences in life ranging back to childhood in which deviance was learned through environment and criminal behavior was exalted...add extreme poverty and you have a cycle of violence...so when does it stop?

Do people actually want to care? Or is the practice of abortion more an assault on the senses than children freezing to death, not enough to eat, their school falling apart, and criminal behavior occurring in the home? IT IS our problem - I contend and is a part of this culture of innocent life.

I don't advocate allowing children to freeze to death. I don't advocate public schools falling apart--I advocate that they should not exist, but then I haven't seen any fall in on top of the occupants nor do I think that it's a frequent occurrance.

I'd like to see people keep their money so that they can afford to let a parent stay at home and school their own kids if they wish, or afford to send them to the school of their choice.

How many kids freeze to death in this country yearly? I'll bet fewer than there are death row prisoners. Now if we put the death row prisoners to death, we'd save more than enough to keep those freezing kids from freezing.

My concern for people after birth is that they should live in a world as safe from criminal assault as possible. That child molesters not be suffered to plague communities, with maybe "registering as a sex offender" to "protect" the kids. That murderers be put to death to prevent them from preying on the innocent.

Capital punishment is a deterrent for murder and even if it weren't the recidivism rate after it is applied is admirable and abolutely prevents that offender from ever harming another.

I would like to see people keep their money, invest it, and let it finance their retirement, and not depend upon the workers of the next generation to toil to pay ever increasing Social Security taxes to finance it. I would like to see families be able to afford to finance their futures and not just be like rats on a treadmill running ceasely because of a gross tax burden. In fact, I'd like to see a flat tax rate that does not extend into the double digits.

I want to see families pay less in taxes so that they can afford to adopt a kid if they wish. People in my own family have been willing to adopt kids or wanted to have another kid or two but not been able to because they could not afford it.

I want businesses to not bear crippling taxes so that it doesn't take a conglomeration to remain competitive so that we all can have more choices. And so that there won't be the pressure to cut labor costs to the bone just to survive.

I have concern for life after birth. But it seems that you do not accept or recognize concern that does not utilize the methods you prefer.
 

TheMindVillage

New member
Actually - your last statement was inaccurate...that's the kind of argumentation I was looking for. I am willing to bend and yield on some of those topics you brought.

Was it necessary to stretch it and ASSUME in the final sentence...nah. I have to run to work, but actually aside from your last sentence, it was a good post.
 

Frank Ernest

New member
Hall of Fame
"One liners demean your intelligence...pray tell - anyone out there who is willing and able to answer the questions without delving into meaningless phrases? "

You first.
 

TheMindVillage

New member
Frank - you're so witty.

Anyhow - I AM interested, Crow. I will continue thinking on your post as the bulk of it seemed to really begin the path toward dialogue.

Thanks for the thought-provoking post...
 

philosophizer

New member
Re: Questions for Consideration...Life After Life

Re: Questions for Consideration...Life After Life

Originally posted by TheMindVillage

Look - I am beginning to be swayed in some ways on the issue of abortion. I do concede that this practice indeed should be snuffed out.
Great! :thumb:


However, I have some major concerns that don't seem to be answered by the religious right/Republican majority with any clarity and sincerity. So, allow me to ask the following:

1) Granted that eventually all abortion is outlawed. What shall we do with the children who are born into poverty - thus without healthcare, adequate food, shelter and educational access. Please do not read this as my indicating that we should as a result use abortion as birth control. My question stands solely from the position that most of you are anti-tax/anti-government intrusion with the exception of sexual issues (abortion, gay rights/marriage, etc.)

What quality of life do you value for the child once out of the womb? Is not this culture of life people talk about when discussing abortion relevant after birth? It cannot be as simple as accepting Christ as one's savior and all will be well. That's not practical. So - someone come up with a truly practical approach to these concerns...
Well, as others have already said and as your current "swaying" suggests, the issue of abortion being murder doesn't really have a connection to what kind of standard of living a child might possibly have. Murder would still be murder regardless of the circumstances, so long as it takes innocent life.

But as for that quality of life, the solution would be extremely difficult because it is multi-faceted and requires changes that society just doesn't want to enact. Let's do everything we can to educate people (especially young people) that they don't need to be having sex. Let's teach our kids that sex is something very special. Let's really emphasise abstinance before marriage. Let's really be proponents for marriage and the family. Let's be responsible with the images and stories we put forth in movies, magazines, and all media. Let's really support adoption. Let's get rid of the kind of genetic selfishness that lies behind things like invetro fertilization. Let's congratulate successful people, but not deify them. Let's help those who need help, but not demonize them. Let's love but not enable.

Difficult?


2) Awhile back Zakath noted the issue of war and the death penalty. If we agreed to abolish abortive practices, would those on the right be willing to do away with the barbary of the death penalty, extended prison terms that fail to rehabilitate (again a culture of life issue)? Would we consider the notion that NO war will ever be fought unless this country adopts Universal Service - meaning that every man and woman over the age of 18 serves a minimum of 3 years in the service in one capacity or another?
I'll just repeat what others have said. There's a clear distinction that separates murder from killing. Murder is a type of killing. So all murder is killing, but not all killing is murder. Now, whether you want to propose that all killing is barbarous is another matter and debatable. I would propose that while it may always be what some might call "barbarous," it is sometimes also what I would call "justice" or even "necessary."

But that aside, murder is the killing of an innocent-- someone who has done nothing worthy of death. I assert that abortion is the taking of an innocent life which has done nothing worthy of death, and therefore murder. Whereas a convicted murder has taken another's life, is not innocent, and, in my opinion, is worthy of death. These two issues are quite separate. Your comparison is a fallacious comparison.

As to your point on "universal service" I guess I'm not sure what you mean by that, or what you think it will achieve.



3) What shall we do about sex and the results of teenage pregnancy? Reams of paper have been devoted to the failed approaches of abstinence education...as well as more liberal models of sex education (notice I was fair here). What then shall we do to educate and consequently, how will we handle the population of children born?
Like I already said, a solution is multi-faceted. That's why those attempts failed. Not because their messages were ill-conceived (though some were), but because the total message teens were getting from our society was contradictory. We can tell teens forever the value of abstinence, but as long as they see in movies and television how valuable a part of young-adult life sex is, the message just gets shot down and we shoot ourselves in the foot.

If you've got a pest problem in your home, you can keep setting out traps and poison for the rest of your life. But if you don't find out where the vermin are coming in and fix it, you'll always have a pest problem.


4) What will we do about the 250,000 children awaiting adoption but will never see homes or stability because the color of their skin is "wrong". Is foster care the best bet or should we re-implement orphanages?
Again, multi-faceted problem.

For one, we need to educate against racism. I think our society has improved on this, but still has a way to go.

Also, why do we need procedures like invetro-fertilization? Why? Because we seem to have this idea that our blood, our genes, our traits, our name must be carried on. We think that blood is thicker than water. You just have a more special connection with "your own child", right? I think that's a sad opinion. Life is life and love is love. Do we really think that our amount of love for a child should depend on how similar our DNA is? It's just selfishness.

That's the idea behind those kind of fertility treatments. Selfishness. Why else will a couple spend thousands of dollars for a doctor's help in producing "their child" while children are waiting to be adopted?

And, of course, there are a lot more kids in foster homes than couples on fertility drugs. But there are still a lot more couples who can't conceive and can't afford the treatments, though they wish they had the money so they could have "their own child." It's just the kind of mindset we have socially. It needs to change.
 

Delmar

Patron Saint of SMACK
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Re: Best pro life video ever made!

Re: Best pro life video ever made!

Originally posted by deardelmar

Watch the GE 3D-4D Ultrasound Commercial It's the best pro life message ever filmed!
Then return to the first page of this thread! This is all the truth smack you will ever need concerning abortion! If you're not allready living in HELL!
 

Sozo

New member

From your link...

May 10, 1994. Illinois. John Wayne Gacy. After the execution began, one of the three lethal drugs clogged the tube leading to Gacy's arm, and therefore stopped flowing. Blinds, covering the window through which witnesses observe the execution, were then drawn. The clogged tube was replaced with a new one, the blinds were opened, and the execution process resumed. Anesthesiologists blamed the problem on the inexperience of the prison officials who were conducting the execution, saying that proper procedures taught in "IV 101" would have prevented the error.

:think:


Gee... what a shame that John Wayne Gacy had to go through a botched execution...



The future serial killer would be arrested for the first time in 1968. The felony charge -- attempting to coerce a male employee into homosexual acts -- came as a big surprise to those who thought they knew this likable father of two toddlers, especially his wife of four years. Gacy pled guilty to sodomy and was sentenced to 10 years in Iowa’s State Men’s Reformatory in Anamosa. His wife filed for divorce following the sentencing. Angered, Gacy informed her he did not want to see his children again and would henceforth consider her and the two kids dead.

After serving 18 months, Gacy was paroled on Oct. 18, 1971 and returned to Chicago. Unknown to his parole officer, Gacy was arrested by Chicago police on Feb. 12 -- eight months after his release from prison -- and charged with attempted rape and disorderly conduct. A gay youth had complained to authorities that Gacy had picked him up at the Greyhound station in downtown Chicago. He told police that Gacy took him back to his house and attempted to have sex with him. However, the charges were dropped when the boy failed to appear in court for the hearing.

Shortly after returning to Chicago, Gacy went to work as a construction contractor. Three years later, in 1975, he started his own construction business, PDM Contractors. That July he remarried a recently divorced woman he had met through mutual friends and, with financial assistance from his mother, moved into a house in Des Plaines, a middle-class Chicago suburb.

Gacy had a talent for business. According to the Des Plaines Journal, he was known by local merchants as a sharp businessman. He often gained contracts by undercutting his competitors' bids. He was able to cut costs by hiring on a number of teenage boys. (At least five of these boys became his victims.) His business grew.

Gacy spent part of his leisure time hosting elaborate street parties for friends and neighbors, dressing as a clown, and entertaining children at local hospitals. He also immersed himself in organizations such as the Jaycees and the local Democratic party. As a Democratic precinct captain he once had his picture taken with First Lady Rosalyn Carter.

Gacy’s second wife divorced him in March of 1976. According to accounts in Harlan Mendenhall’s book, Fall of the House of Gacy, she felt she could no longer cope with the marriage due to her husband's unpredictable moods and bizarre obsession with homosexual magazines. The couple did not have children.

On Dec. 12, 1978, the police again focused their attention on John Wayne Gacy. Robert Piest, a teenage stock boy at a Nisson Pharmacy in Des Plaines, had come up missing. Gacy was the last person seen with the boy prior to his disappearance. When investigators ran a background check on Gacy, they were surprised to discover that he had previously served time for committing sodomy on a teenage boy. With this incriminating information, investigators were able to obtain a warrant to search Gacy’s house.

During the execution of the warrant, investigators entered a crawl space located beneath the home. A rancid odor was quickly noticed. The smell was believed to be faulty sewage lines and was dismissed. Without any noticeable incriminating evidence, investigators returned to headquarters to run tests on the evidence they seized.

During a review of the items confiscated from Gacy’s house, investigators soon realized that they had unknowingly seized a piece of critical evidence. One of the rings found at Gacy’s house belonged to another teenager who had disappeared a year earlier. They also discovered that a receipt for a roll of film found at Gacy’s home had belonged to a co-worker of Robert Piest who had given it to Robert the day of his disappearance.

With this new information, investigators began to realize the possible enormity of the case that was unfolding before them. Following the discovery of their new information, it was not long before investigators were able to obtain a second search warrant for Gacy’s home.

On Dec. 22, 1978, Gacy, realizing that his dark secrets were about to be exposed, went to the police to confess. Shortly into the confessions, Gacy waived his Miranda rights and told detectives, ''There are four Johns.'' He later explained that there was John the contractor, John the clown, and John the politician. The fourth person went by the name of Jack Hanley. Jack was the killer and did all the evil things.

According to accounts in Killer Clown, Gacy informed investigators that his first killing took place in January 1972, and the second two years later in January 1974. He further confessed that he lured his victims into being handcuffed. Gacy would tell his victim that he wanted to show him a "pair of trick handcuffs" he used in his clown act, claiming there was a special way to unlock the cuffs and daring the youth to break out of them. Once the youth was securely manacled, he would kill him by pulling a rope or board against their throats, as he raped them. Gacy admitted to sometimes keeping the dead bodies under his bed or in the attic for several hours before eventually burying them in the crawl space

Gacy went on to make voluntary confessions to over two dozen murders, although he couldn't answer all the questions posed by the police, often responding, ''You'll have to ask Jack that.'' He also drew them a detailed map to the locations of 28 shallow graves under his house and garage. Further he admitted to dumping five other victims into the Des Plaines River.

Less than an hour after the initial dig at Gacy’s house began, investigators discovered the first body in a crawl space under the home. As the days and weeks passed, the body count grew. So did the media coverage, exponentially. The macabre excavations at Gacy's modest home in Des Plaines led the national news night after night. The house itself became almost as familiar to American and foreign viewing audiences as The White House.

The details of the dig were riveting. Some of the victims had been buried so close together that police believed they were probably killed or buried at the same time. By the end of January, police and construction crews had gutted the entire house and exhumed twenty-seven bodies. The search had taken longer than expected due to the frozen ground and the winter cold.

During this time, four bodies that had been discovered in the Des Plaines River were linked to Gacy by driver’s licenses and other personal items found in his home.

While the identities of the 32 victims began to surface, investigators discovered that all of the victims were young men ranging from their early teens to mid-twenties. While most were male prostitutes known to solicit at "Bunghouse Square" in Chicago, some were young boys who simply disappeared for no apparent reason, and at least five were employees of PDM Contracting at one point or another.

Surprisingly, the excavations and the dragging of the river did not turn up the corpse of Robert Piest.

As the search for bodies came to and end, two young men, Robert Donnelly and Jeff Rignall came forward and spoke to investigators. The youths both felt extremely lucky to be alive and their stories were startlingly similar in detail even though their run ins with Gacy happened on different days. Each claimed that sometime in December of 1977, he had been abducted at gunpoint by Gacy, chloroformed, tortured, whipped and raped. For reasons only know to Gacy himself, both youths were spared their lives. Whether it was fear or embarrassment, neither youth had wished to pursue the matter directly after it had occurred.

Finally in April 1979, the remains of Robert Piest were discovered along the Illinois River. An autopsy later determined that he had died as a result of suffocation. Gacy was charged with his death.

Gacy’s murder trial began Feb. 6, 1980 in the Cook County Criminal Courts Building in Chicago. During the five-week trial the prosecution and the defense called more than 100 witnesses to testify. The defense strategy was to establish that Gacy was insane and out of control at the time of the killings. To bolster this claim the defense put on the stand psychiatrists who had interviewed Gacy prior to trial. The prosecution, on the other hand, vigorously opposed the notion that Gacy was insane, contending that his claim of multiple personalities was a death-penalty dodge.

The jury clearly sided with the prosecution's version. It deliberated for only two hours before finding Gacy guilty of murdering 33 people.

On March 13, 1980, Gacy was sentenced to die. He was sent to Menard Correctional Center in Illinois. He would remain there for just over 14 years until he was transported to the Statesville Penitentiary near Joliet for execution.

On May 9, 1994, Gacy sat down for his last meal: fried chicken, French fries, Coke and strawberry shortcake. Prison officials later described his demeanor as ''chatty... talking up a storm.'' In a phone interview shortly before his execution, he told a Knight-Tribune reporter, ''There's been 11 hardback books on me, 31 paperbacks, two screenplays, one movie, one off-Broadway play, five songs, and over 5,000 articles. What can I say about it?'' But of course, he quickly protested, ''I have no ego for any of this garbage.''

Just after midnight on May 10, 1994, Gacy was executed by lethal injection. For his last words, Gacy snarled, ''Kiss my ***.''

:zakath:
 

TheMindVillage

New member
Fair enough. I still am vehemently against the death penalty for a number of reasons. But, I brought the level of debate down and allow me to bring it back to something I asked last week - my apologies. I am leaning towards the pro-life stance - it has taken a while to get there and some reasoning here has indeed benefited me. My concern is the lack of structural safety nets afforded to our children.

Point: Abortion is a crime against innocents.
Given: We should protect the life of innocents.
Point: The death penalty is not akin to taking the life of the innocent. (Fair enough)
Given: Those who commit heinous crimes against society should be put to death. Namely those who take the life or severely harm others. (We could get into the whole debate about this alone - particularly those scoundrels at Enron...should they be put to death for the thousands of innocent lives the ruined?)

Point: All children are deserving of a chance at life.
Given: Society is rife with loving families, accessibility to strong educational elements, and social support through religious and non-profit organizations.
Problem: The above is not the case. Not all children are valued by society. Children brought into this world by single mothers and into impoverished and/or otherwise unstable homes are less likely to have an equal or greater chance at attaining a lifestyle that is commensurate with other Americans or will continue in a cycle of violence and crime based on role modeling/mentoring from those who would otherwise be deemed morally/ethically bankrupt. Adoption and other elements are often hard to negotiate and thus those children born into this world without a parent or parents are thrown into fostercare an all-too-often unfortunate cycle itself which results in the child being beandied about.
Suggestion: How will we value children after birth in order to benefit all of us? Is this necessary? Why shouldn't it be? Why are folks uncomfortable with discussing this aspect in tandem with abortion?
 
C

cattyfan

Guest
re: Gacy...have you read the book written by Jason Moss?

The Last Victim Eighteen-year-old honor student Jason Moss wrote to men whose body counts had made criminal history: men named Dahmer, Manson, Ramirez, and Gacy.


Posing as their ideal victim, Jason seduced them with his words. One by one they wrote him back, showering him with their madness and violent fantasies. Then the game spun out of control. John Wayne Gacy revealed all to Jason -- and invited his pen pal to visit him in prison...

It was an offer Jason couldn't turn down. Even if it made him.... THE LAST VICTIM.

Moss went to the prison to meet Gacy...the guards left them alone, but watched on monitors. Moss was attacked by Gacy and the guards did not immediately respond.

Gacy's need to dominate and kill continued after his conviction and incarceration. There was no doubt about his guilt. None. There was also no doubt about the pain and terror he inflicted while torturing his victims to death. By his own admission, he would sometimes rape and strangle a boy or young man, bringing them to the brink of death...then stop and let the victim recover enough oxygen to live. He would repeat this sequence for hours, and in at least two cases, for days before killing the victim.

I sure am sorry he had a little discomfort and possible a little mental anguish while being gently executed. It's doubtful, however, that he was even aware of the delay. After the first injection, the convicted criminal being executed isn't conscious...unlike his victims.
 

aikido7

BANNED
Banned
Someone who'd cheer a B-52 strike on Baghdad will murmur feelingly about the perfect little hands of a second trimester fetus. And everyone hates terrorism with a passion because it victimizes innocent people: that's so outrageous!
 

Art Deco

New member
Originally posted by aikido7

Someone who'd cheer a B-52 strike on Baghdad will murmur feelingly about the perfect little hands of a second trimester fetus. And everyone hates terrorism with a passion because it victimizes innocent people: that's so outrageous!
Are you trying to draw some moral dichotomy between air strikes on Baghdad and the culture war on abortion? :confused:
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Death is Death, no matter how. Air strikes kill living people. Is not the issue the same? Bush has blood on his hands too. Abortion is questionable to some, murder is not.
 

aikido7

BANNED
Banned
Are you trying to draw some moral dichotomy between air strikes on Baghdad and the culture war on abortion?

No dichotomy at all. Put down your bifurcating, wake up and smell the dead flesh of murder.
 
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