A problem with open theism (HOF thread)

[Jeremiah85]

OK... so your answer would be what?

Here is the question again in review....
If Clete chose NOT to get in the car yet God had PERFECT foreknowledge that he DID get in the car . . . how could God's foreknowledge be perfect?

My answer is this: The situation that you state is impossible and therefore cannot be answered with a "yes" or a "no".
My reasoning is in my previous post. You seem to be implying that God is not perfect and I would like to know if this is really what you believe.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

All of the above mentioned objects are all finite. Humans, bowling balls (just drop one on concrete and you will see it change).

Of course!!! That's the point!!! Please try to keep up OK?

God is infinite! He is perfect and above all we can think or reason about Him.

Is God animate or inanimate?

 

[Agape4Robin]

A4R please answer my question . . .

If Clete chose NOT to get in the car yet God had PERFECT foreknowledge that he DID get in the car . . . how could God's foreknowledge be perfect?

If God's foreknowledge is that Clete did get in the car.......then that is what Clete did. How would Clete know not to?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

My answer is this: The situation that you state is impossible and therefore cannot be answered with a "yes" or a "no".
My reasoning is in my previous post. You seem to be implying that God is not perfect and I would like to know if this is really what you believe.

:doh:

It's a hypothetical question how can you not answer it????

It's a telling sign about theologies when a simple question brings everyone to their knees.

 

[drbrumley]

:doh:

It's a hypothetical question how can you not answer it????

It's a telling sign about theologies when a simple question brings everyone to their knees.

It is indeed.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

If God's foreknowledge is that Clete did get in the car.......then that is what Clete did. How would Clete know not to?

BINGO!

Clete does not have the freewill to avoid the car if God has exhaustive foreknowledge of him getting in the car, agree?

 

[Agape4Robin]

Of course!!! That's the point!!! Please try to keep up OK?

Is God animate or inanimate?

Animate and infinite!

We are animate and finite!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Animate and infinite!

BINGO!!!

And therefore the old pagan Greek line that states a perfect object cannot change and remain perfect does not apply to a animate being such as God.

 

[Agape4Robin]

BINGO!

Clete does not have the freewill to avoid the car if God has exhaustive foreknowledge of him getting in the car, agree?

If Clete chooses NOT to get in the car, how can he KNOW what the outcome would be if he did?

Just because God knows what will happen either way......does not take away our free will. This knowledge is neither causative or preventive.

 

[Agape4Robin]

God knows when and how we will die, can we choose not to die? :think:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

If Clete chooses NOT to get in the car, how can he KNOW what the outcome would be if he did?

Just because God knows what will happen either way......does not take away our free will. This knowledge is neither causative or preventive.

:doh:

Robin, I thought we were past this.

Let's go slower....

Lets assume God has PERFECT exhaustive foreknowledge. OK?

Let's further assume God's foreknowledge includes Clete getting into the car and getting in the wreck. OK?

All of the above IS CONTAINED within God's foreknowledge.

OK??

Does Clete have the freewill to do anything other than what is contained within God's perfect foreknowledge?

 

[Jeremiah85]

:doh:

It's a hypothetical question how can you not answer it????

Just because it is hypothetical does not make it possible.

It's a telling sign about theologies when a simple question brings everyone to their knees.

Answering impossible questions is never easy.

Allow me to use an anology about what I believe: If my Mom were to offer me some corn for dinner I would have the free will to eat it or to refuse it. My mother knows however that under no circumstances will I ever eat corn (mainly because it makes me sick to my stomach) therefore she knows that I will not accept it. God gives us free will, and because God has perfect foreknowledge, he knows with complete accuracy what we will choose.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

God knows when and how we will die, can we choose not to die? :think:

To some extent yes!

A person contemplating suicide may choose not to die (early). But lets not distract from the main discussion OK?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Just because it is hypothetical does not make it possible.
Answering impossible questions is never easy.

It's only immpossible to answer for you because the answer destroys your position.

Allow me to use an anology about what I believe: If my Mom were to offer me some corn for dinner I would have the free will to eat it or to refuse it. My mother knows however that under no circumstances will I ever eat corn (mainly because it makes me sick to my stomach) therefore she knows that I will not accept it. God gives us free will, and because God has perfect foreknowledge, he knows with complete accuracy what we will choose.

Yet your mom isn't omniscient is she?

And she still knows you will not choose corn?

Are you arguing for open theism now?

 

[Agape4Robin]

:doh:

Robin, I thought we were past this.

Let's go slower....

Lets assume God has PERFECT exhaustive foreknowledge. OK?

Let's further assume God's foreknowledge includes Clete getting into the car and getting in the wreck. OK?

All of the above IS CONTAINED within God's foreknowledge.

OK??

Does Clete have the freewill to do anything other than what is contained within God's perfect foreknowledge?

Are you making light of my intelligence? :think:

Clete most certainly has "free will" based on the fact that he doesn't possess the kind of knowledge that God does. Depending on the circumstances, it is impossible to know what comes of the choices we make, but God is never surprised! :nono:

 

[Agape4Robin]

To some extent yes!

A person contemplating suicide may choose not to die (early). But lets not distract from the main discussion OK?

:darwinsm: Ok then, right before you draw your last breath, change your mind about dying and see what that gets you.

 

[drbrumley]

Are you making light of my intelligence? :think:

Clete most certainly has "free will" based on the fact that he doesn't possess the kind of knowledge that God does. Depending on the circumstances, it is impossible to know what comes of the choices we make, but God is never surprised! :nono:

Augustine and Plato would be proud. :bang:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Clete most certainly has "free will" based on the fact that he doesn't possess the kind of knowledge that God does.

So what your saying is we perceive that we have freewill but in reality we don't. Correct?

Depending on the circumstances, it is impossible to know what comes of the choices we make, but God is never surprised!

Yet you do agree that we cannot make a choice that is not contained with God's perfect foreknowledge correct?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

:darwinsm: Ok then, right before you draw your last breath, change your mind about dying and see what that gets you.

Robin, do you read my posts?

I read yours.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Augustine and Plato would be proud. :bang: