A problem with open theism (HOF thread)

[Freak]

I'll take that to mean that it is in yours as well and that you are content to live with that contradiction.

I am content in knowing that God gives us free will & that He knows all.

I'm sure you know this already but for those who might not, this is known in theological circles as antinomy. Would you agree that there is unavoidable antinomy in the Christian faith?

There are many theological elements that remain mysterious. Understanding the deeper truths of the triune nature of God, for example, is mysterious. I've yet to meet anyone who fully understands the nature of God. Free will and absolute knowledge of God seems equally necessary and reasonable.

In this context it is a prediction of some future event.

What many OVer's fail to see is that Jesus who is God was able to look into the future and knew exactly what was to pass. Did Jesus really only make a prediction about Peter denying him based upon Peter's character? But the prophecy was so specific: three denials before the rooster crowed twice (Mark 14:30-72). When Ezekiel prophesied about the destruction of the city of Tyre, was that just a really good guess? It was too accurate a prophecy for that.

There isn't any.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Intellectually dishonest. :down:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I did say that he could choose not to, but in my no answer, I thought I had shown that there could be many reasons why no was the only choice to make......
I am sorry this was not very clear.

So if Clete chose NOT to get in the car yet God had PERFECT foreknowledge that he DID get in the car how could God's foreknowledge be perfect?

Not only was it not perfect it was dead wrong!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Did Jesus really only make a prediction about Peter denying him based upon Peter's character?

God knows everything knowable. He knew Peter and what Peter was thinking. Jesus knew Peter's faith was weak enough to deny Him.

Peter could have repented and made God's prediction wrong as Nineveh did and God would have rejoiced! God would have rather had Peter conform to His will then have Peter fulfill the sad prediction.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Robin, I am not just playing games with you here or trying to be petty I have a reason for asking you these questions about your joke.

I don't know how to answer this. Let me try......

First, I believe that the OTV does not reflect God's omniscience and limits His knowledge to past and present only with future contingencies at best.

Last, I believe that God's knowledge is neither causitive or preventive, but simply is knowledge. God does however reserve the right and ability to intervene if He so chooses.

 

[Delmar]

...Did Jesus really only make a prediction about Peter denying him based upon Peter's character? But the prophecy was so specific: three denials before the rooster crowed twice (Mark 14:30-72). When Ezekiel prophesied about the destruction of the city of Tyre, was that just a really good guess? It was too accurate a prophecy for that...

There are events that God causes to happen! There are times when people are coerced by God.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I don't know how to answer this. Let me try......

First, I believe that the OTV does not reflect God's omniscience and limits His knowledge to past and present only with future contingencies at best.

Last, I believe that God's knowledge is neither causitive or preventive, but simply is knowledge. God does however reserve the right and ability to intervene if He so chooses.

So if Clete chose NOT to get in the car yet God had PERFECT foreknowledge that he DID get in the car . . . how could God's foreknowledge be perfect?

 

[Agape4Robin]

So if Clete chose NOT to get in the car yet God had PERFECT foreknowledge that he DID get in the car . . . how could God's foreknowledge be perfect?

The answer is obvious that Clete did get in the car.....yes?

 

[Freak]

God knows everything knowable. He knew Peter and what Peter was thinking.

Knowing how many times the rooster crowed was knowable?

When Ezekiel prophesied about the destruction of the city of Tyre, was that just a really good guess? Or was it a "prediction?"

Peter could have repented and made God's prediction wrong as Nineveh did and God would have rejoiced! God would have rather had Peter conform to His will then have Peter fulfill the sad prediction.

God's predicition "wrong?" Is God sometimes "wrong?"

 

[Freak]

There are events that God causes to happen! There are times when people are coerced by God.

Great is our Lord and mighty in power; His understanding has no limit.

Is God limited in understanding, in light of this passage, of Hezekiah's future, for example?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

The answer is obvious that Clete did get in the car.....yes?

It's weird.... it's like everytime I ask you a question you give me an answer that sounds like its for a different question.

Let me try the last one again....

So if Clete chose NOT to get in the car yet God had PERFECT foreknowledge that he DID get in the car . . . how could God's foreknowledge be perfect?

Isn't the only logical answer... "it couldn't be perfect."?

 

[Freak]

Knight,

If God were to "change his mind" about anything, this would mean by default that he failed to have complete knowledge (omniscience). Correct? You may ask Freak- why is this? Well, if a "change" became necessary for God, this would be a shortcoming or lack of complete knowledge.

My friend, any change in a perfect God-including a "changed mind"-would mean God changed to something less than perfect since perfection implies completeness, lacking no thing. Change for a perfect Being must be a change for the worst since a perfect God could not change for the better. A "changing perfect God" is, therefore, a contradiction and fails to describe an all-powerful, all-knowing, everywhere-present God. Think about it.

Knight, keep in mind that a perfect Being can't lack anything that is characteristic of his nature or he fails to be perfect. Now, how does this relate to whether or not God can change his mind? Well, if God could change his mind, this would mean that his "conclusion" or "knowledge" prior to the change was incorrect. He would, therefore, not be the perfect Being that he must be by nature. Any change in God would be a violation of his attributes.

This is fairly simple, a changing God implies a incompleteness. A change for a perfect being (God) must be a change for the worst since a perfect God could not change for the better-for He is perfect.

Our God is a LIVING PERRFECT GOD!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Knowing how many times the rooster crowed was knowable?

When Ezekiel prophesied about the destruction of the city of Tyre, was that just a really good guess? Or was it a "prediction?"

God can bring events to pass if He so choses. This concept is very different from God knows ALL events exhaustively.

God's prediction "wrong?" Is God sometimes "wrong?"

Of course!

God chose to give man freewill, and because of that God cannot always predict what we will do yet this is by God's design. He wants it that way.

Sometimes God grieves because His predictions for us fail, yet other times God is joyous because His predictions for us fail (i.e., Nineveh).

 

[Agape4Robin]

It's weird.... it's like everytime I ask you a question you give me an answer that sounds like its for a different question.

Let me try the last one again....

So if Clete chose NOT to get in the car yet God had PERFECT foreknowledge that he DID get in the car . . . how could God's foreknowledge be perfect?

Isn't the only logical answer... "it couldn't be perfect."?

If that were the conclusion of my arguement, but my answer is no. No, Clete could not choose not to get in the car.

 

[Freak]

Knight, I asked you:

Is God sometimes "wrong?"

You replied:

Of course!

Give us some examples where God was wrong?

 

[Agape4Robin]

God can bring events to pass if He so choses. This concept is very different from God knows ALL events exhaustively.

Of course!

God chose to give man freewill, and because of that God cannot always predict what we will do yet this is by God's design. He wants it that way.

Sometimes God grieves because His predictions for us fail, yet other times God is joyous because His predictions for us fail (i.e., Nineveh).

Here we go with the Nineveh arguement again...... :doh:

 

[Jeremiah85]

So if Clete chose NOT to get in the car yet God had PERFECT foreknowledge that he DID get in the car . . . how could God's foreknowledge be perfect?

Isn't the only logical answer... "it couldn't be perfect."?

May I jump in here? It seems that your question is an impossibility. God could not have perfect foreknowledge that he did get in the car because he did not get in the car. God would have had foreknowledge that he did get in the car because that is what happened. Clete would not be forced to get in the car, but God would already know which choice he would freely make. To say that God's foreknowledge is not perfect is to say that God is not perfect.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Knight,

If God were to "change his mind" about anything, this would mean by default that he failed to have complete knowledge (omniscience). Correct? You may ask Freak- why is this? Well, if a "change" became necessary for God, this would be a shortcoming or lack of complete knowledge.

My friend, any change in a perfect God-including a "changed mind"-would mean God changed to something less than perfect since perfection implies completeness, lacking no thing. Change for a perfect Being must be a change for the worst since a perfect God could not change for the better. A "changing perfect God" is, therefore, a contradiction and fails to describe an all-powerful, all-knowing, everywhere-present God. Think about it.

Knight, keep in mind that a perfect Being can't lack anything that is characteristic of his nature or he fails to be perfect. Now, how does this relate to whether or not God can change his mind? Well, if God could change his mind, this would mean that his "conclusion" or "knowledge" prior to the change was incorrect. He would, therefore, not be the perfect Being that he must be by nature. Any change in God would be a violation of his attributes.

This is fairly simple, a changing God implies a incompleteness. A change for a perfect being (God) must be a change for the worst since a perfect God could not change for the better-for He is perfect.

Our God is a LIVING PERRFECT GOD!

Freak, this is faulty pagan Greek philosophy which only applies to inanimate objects.

God is not an inanimate object.

Animated objects or living beings change by definition, it is the very thing that differentiates them from dead or inanimate objects.

A perfectly sized bowling ball cannot change and remain a perfectly sized bowling ball. Yet a perfect bowler changes all the time!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

May I jump in here? It seems that your question is an impossibility. God could not have perfect foreknowledge that he did get in the car because he did not get in the car. God would have had foreknowledge that he did get in the car because that is what happened. Clete would not be forced to get in the car, but God would already know which choice he would freely make.

OK... so your answer would be what?

Here is the question again in review....
If Clete chose NOT to get in the car yet God had PERFECT foreknowledge that he DID get in the car . . . how could God's foreknowledge be perfect?

 

[Agape4Robin]

Freak, this is faulty pagan Greek philosophy which only applies to inanimate objects.

God is not an inanimate object.

Animated objects or living beings change by definition, it is the very thing that differentiates them from dead or inanimate objects.

A perfectly sized bowling ball cannot change and remain a perfectly sized bowling ball. Yet a perfect bowler changes all the time!

All of the above mentioned objects are all finite. Humans, bowling balls (just drop one on concrete and you will see it change).

God is infinite! He is perfect and above all we can think or reason about Him.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

A4R please answer my question . . .

If Clete chose NOT to get in the car yet God had PERFECT foreknowledge that he DID get in the car . . . how could God's foreknowledge be perfect?