This thread is a shining example of what bad theology can do to normally smart people. :nono:
A problem with open theism (HOF thread)
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Robin, is freewill a human perception or is it real?
In other words....
Do you believe that we have the will to do whatever we choose but God knows otherwise?
It seems to me that based on what you are saying this is indeed what you believe.
In other words....
Do you believe that we have the will to do whatever we choose but God knows otherwise?
It seems to me that based on what you are saying this is indeed what you believe.
Jeremiah85
New member
I am starting to suspect that we coming at the same point from different viewpoints. You say that because God has foreknown something that a person can choose nothing else. I am saying that because a person chooses something, that God cannot foreknow anything else because anything else would be incorrect.Knight said:
You know as well as I do that no human analogy is entirely accurate. What my Mom can do with reasonable accuracy, God can do with 100% accuracy because He is perfectYet your mom isn't omniscient is she?
And she still knows you will not choose corn?
Are you arguing for open theism now?
And therefore true freewill and perfect exhaustive foreknowledge are mutually exclusive. BOTH cannot be true.Jeremiah85 said:
We either have true freewill or God has perfect exhaustive foreknowledge, one or the other both cannot logically be true.
:spam:
Come one, come all.... I will take you all on!!! :box:
Ask Poly.Mr. 5020 said:
Personally I think this may be the single most important issue when it comes to how the lost view Christianity.Mr. 5020 said:
drbrumley
Well-known member
God has the ability to do whatever He wants. If He desired to know the future actions of all beings, He could do that. The only problem is, they would not be free to make those choices, and God shows that dilemma by stating in
Isaiah 5:1-4: “Now let me sing to my Well-beloved, a song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard on a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, and planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, and also made a winepress in it; So He expected it to bring forth good grapes, but it brought forth wild grapes. 3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard that I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, did it bring forth wild grapes?”
God stated the problem with free will agents. God did everything He could do without predestinating them to do what He wanted them to do. It even shows God’s disappointment with the nation. God expected Israel to bring forth good grapes, but they did not. These kinds of statements are evident throughout the Bible.
Isaiah 5:1-4: “Now let me sing to my Well-beloved, a song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard on a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, and planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, and also made a winepress in it; So He expected it to bring forth good grapes, but it brought forth wild grapes. 3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard that I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, did it bring forth wild grapes?”
God stated the problem with free will agents. God did everything He could do without predestinating them to do what He wanted them to do. It even shows God’s disappointment with the nation. God expected Israel to bring forth good grapes, but they did not. These kinds of statements are evident throughout the Bible.
Agape4Robin
Member
Part of the issue here is the issue of time, is it not?Knight said:
If the future exists for God even as the present does, then God is consistently in all places at all times and is not restricted by time. This would mean that time is not a part of God's nature to which God is subject and that God is not a linear entity. Meaning that He is not restricted to the present only and operates outside of our realm. If God is not restricted to the present, our present, then the future is known by God because God indwells the future, as well as the present.
This means that our future choices, as free as they are, are simply known by God. Our ability to choose is not altered or lessened by God existing in the future and knowing what we freely choose. It just means that God can see what we will freely choose, because it is what we have freely chosen.
Jeremiah85
New member
So you deny that God can know what choices that we will make?Knight said:
According to dictionary.com omniscient means: Having total knowledge; knowing everything
God knows with perfect accuracy every decision that will be made. You are stating that man does not have freewill, therefore do you believe that in the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve had no choice but to sin? I believe that God gave them a choice but already knew what the outcome would be.
Of course, why couldn't He?Mr. 5020 said:
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.
In other words....
The more we trust in Him and allow Him to work through us the more He will direct our paths. The converse is... if we lean on our own understandings He will not be guiding our paths. Make sense?
I do not believe that God does not experience time, do you?Agape4Robin said:
The idea that time is some thing (space between words intended) is illogical and not biblical.
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