A problem with open theism (HOF thread)

[Nathon Detroit]

I think he meant that, given all He had done for the Israelites, a reasonable person would have expected them to behave differently. Now your turn.

But that isn't at all what the verse says.

Your asserting He meant that He DID expect Israel to produce wild grapes - God states otherwise.

How can you be satisfied with that type of interpretation? Your interpretation mutilates God's word, it's really tragic.

Your theology has caused you to reject God's clear statements, your theology causes you to interpret God's word almost completely opposite to what it so clearly says.

OK, you ask . . .

Answer me first, did God not originally intend to extend salvation to the Gentiles?

God's plan was to extend salvation to the Gentiles THROUGH Israel.

Yet, that plan changed, didn't it? This fact illustrates the TRUE freewill even more clearly.

 

[docrob57]

But that isn't at all what the verse says.

Your asserting He meant that He DID expect Israel to produce wild grapes - God states otherwise.

How can you be satisfied with that type of interpretation? Your interpretation mutilates God's word, it's really tragic.

Your theology has caused you to reject God's clear statements, your theology causes you to interpret God's word almost completely opposite to what it so clearly says.

OK, you ask . . .God's plan was to extend salvation to the Gentiles THROUGH Israel.

Yet, that plan changed, didn't it? This fact illustrates the TRUE freewill even more clearly.

Well, I will have to remain tragic I suppose. God did extend salvation to the Gentiles through Israel.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Well, I will have to remain tragic I suppose. God did extend salvation to the Gentiles through Israel.

God set aside Israel because of their rejection of Him. God changed His plan and turned to the gentiles with the gospel of circumcision through the apostle Paul.

Salvation is not extended to us through Israel.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

docrob, with all due respect I think you should take some time and review the last few pages of this thread. I think you need to slow down and really pray about where your theology has taken you. You shouldn't be satisfied with interpreting verses exactly opposite as to what they say.

I think it's really important that we take God at His word.

 

[docrob57]

docrob, with all due respect I think you should take some time and review the last few pages of this thread. I think you need to slow down and really pray about where your theology has taken you. You shouldn't be satisfied with interpreting verses exactly opposite as to what they say.

I think it's really important that we take God at His word.

I don't want to argue. I do not think I am interpreting God's word opposite of what He said. I am interpreting the word "expected" somewhat less literally than you. Do you have any information on the Hebrew here? I would be interested to see that.

I believe in the Bible as the inerrant word of God. I am imperfect, and certainly can misinterpret something. But I don't know how you can say that what I beleive is "tragic." I am not wed to predestination as theology. Free will choice of God seems to make more sense. The question that always disturbs me is why some make the choice and some don't. Predestination seems an easy answer to that question, but that does not make it accurate.

Anyway, I am willing to hear your arguments, and even willing to accept them if they make sense. I'm sure it is my fault, but thus far, they have not made sense.

 

[Johnmnbvc]

No, this isn't really the same thing. The only way God's foreknowledge would restrict the actor's freedom is if God himself restricted it. In my view, God is able to predict with complete accuracy the future event. It happens not because God knows it will happen. It happens as a consequence of the caused free choice.

Hi
From what you are saying it sounds like God gathers info and then makes a prediction based on that info. Thats how a man would do it. This sounds like a god who is in time--a logical and mathematical impossibility --infintine regression never arrives at the present.

I want you to consider a timeless God is what 99.9 % of christians and theologians believe. They see no problem with God's effects being caused fom eternity. Just as the spokes from a wheel all originate from 1 point but materialize at different points at the outer edge. People latch onto alternatives due to their own failings--not the teachings failings--so they make up a theory that solves their objection----and they explain away the hundreds of objections their theory causes. All the trees(scripture) must be left standing..you dont chop dont half the forest so another part will be clearer to you.

About freewill--you mentioned random number generator. Now, Im not a calvin or an armin--I believe the complexity of time with timeless makes it possible for us to choose God and for God to choose us. it may be good enough to say we just dont know. It may be unsearchable to our minds and certainly is presented as a paradox in scripture by Paul.

But I play around with it in theory.
Scripture say God knows us fully..what we will say..where we will live..when we are born. Christ would be crucifed just as the serpent was raised by Moses. Jesus would be betrayed for 30 pieces. Cyrus would rule. Exact times nations would rise--how many--and what they would do. Peter would deny christ 3 times before the **** crowed.

He also know what would happen in all circumstances.
1 Samuel 23:11
Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me to him? Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? O LORD, God of Israel, tell your servant." And the LORD said, "He will."

If David went to Keilah..Saul would go there and the people would hand David over. God told David what would happen if David went there. So David did not go. Saul heard david didnt go--so Saul never went..and the people never had the chance to surrender David.

Now, those people would have done this evil. God restrains evil and thus limits what we can do freely. No one could have killed Paul before his time. Jesus needed to live until the passover. But are the people who wanted to kill Paul guity? Yes..sin is of the mind as Jesus clearly points out.

the people of keilah would have betrayed David--they were guilty. God knows us fully. He knows who were are. He knows what we will do. Just because we dont actually do it doesnt clear us.

Matt 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

I have often considered in regard to freewill and God purpose as God weaving together our free choices--who we are--to accomplish his purpose.

In other words, some will say that the men who killed Christ had no choice
Acts 2:23
This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, [ Or of those not having the law (that is, Gentiles)] put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

But did God, who knows who these men are---determining the exact places and times they will live in---weaves toegther their freewill acts to accomplish Salvation. Christ had to die at that exact time in history.

I think anyone who believes in freewill--- believes it's freewill with many conditions.

The last thing is in relation to just who we are. Does God leave it to chance that someone will be smart. That he may have a 100mph fastball? That they may be a musical genius? Does God compose the attributes of their thoughts. I think it is quite clear that just as God choose the color of grass--he created each of us unique.

In regard to Angels, Satan was created with more than other angels.

Calvins would tell you Satan was created to eventually turn bad. But how about this. God creates freewill beings with various gifts and allows various deficiencies. It is Gods will to create a certain number of beings. Their thoughts are allowed to travel in almost any direction. I know you dont want to picture it as like a random number generator--but when allowed to think *most anything we want you cant help but see a pattern form in where some turn bad and some do not.

If we represented thoughts that lead to good or faith by even numbers and thoughts contrary as odd---plus compounded thoughts of either leading to an overwhelming sequence revealing who we actually are--it may look like this

2746986229744227422964446776224226227886622448866

if you look close..the even numbers start to compound the more they are thought and if you continue compounding the amount ---even will outnumber odd by 100 to 1.

Now obviously this illustration is laughable to God. Some little puny man trying imagine how beings are created...but my point is maybe math is not a such a terrible way to approach the fact that a certain percentage of beings will not accept God.

So *if God weaves together who we truly are though history---it follows that it does not voilate who we really are. Pharoah was punk. To harden him in certain situations didnt voilate who he truly was.

Please note I am not saying God looks down though time to see who we truly are. He knows us fully in everyway.

 

[docrob57]

God set aside Israel because of their rejection of Him. God changed His plan and turned to the gentiles with the gospel of circumcision through the apostle Paul.

Salvation is not extended to us through Israel.

I know it isn't extended through Israel, but it is extended due to Israel's rejection, so that Israel is still a part of it.

 

[Clete]

The answer involves undertanding why the event is definitely going to happen. Or, why a certain choice will definitely be made. The simplest way to put it is, there is a reason (or multiple reasons working together) for the choice. Reason and cause are synonymous. Again, to deny that actions or thoughts or whatever have causes is to place all of existence in the realm of a random number generator.

Not if, by some extra-natural (i.e. spiritual) means, there is more than one possible outcome for any one set of causes. Your position must assume that this is not that case and must do so at quite a cost.
I fully acknowledge that there are things about God and the way He has done things that we are not able to fully understand and I think that this is one of those things. I think, and perhaps you don't agree, that the concepts of love, justice and morality are of paramount importance to the Christian faith. Indeed, it would seem the whole faith is predicated on the meaning of these words and others like them. Causality or any other form of determinism not only is not central to the Christian faith but they detroy the meanings of vital concepts that all but define Christianity.
I think that you are intellectually honest enough to admit that your position has not been proved nor is it likely that it could be proved and that pimary issues upon which your position is based must be assumed in order for you to maintain it. I urge you to consider whether such assumption are worth their logical concequences. For me, the logical consiquences are more than enough to prove that you are missing something.

If to say that actions have causes is to deny free will then I guess I would have to say so be it. To substitute "will" for "cause" is nonsensical. Will, per se, explains nothing, because the question remains, why did the will act this way.

Why? Because it willed to do so. I think that the answer could litterally be this simple. The will itself could be the underlying cause of the action taken.

To say that human behavior is much more complex than boiling water is certainly true, but not relevant. Any given human act is brought about by a large, perhaps in human terms, unknowable, number of factors. But the fact of the matter is, that human behavior is predictable within certain probability ranges. The reason that our ability to predict is imperfect is that we have imperfect knowledge of causal factors, initial conditions, environmental factors and their impact, etc. If we had this perfect knowledge, we, even as humans, could predict perfectly, though, certainly, we cannot control. Since God does have this knowledge, it is a denial of God's power to argue that He cannot predict perfectly, even though he does not determine the outcome (in all cases).

Flawless logic assuming that there is only natural processes going on, which I don't think either of us believes. I think that to ignore the spiritual aspect of this issue is about the equivalent of ignoring an elephant in your living room.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[docrob57]

Hi
From what you are saying it sounds like God gathers info and then makes a prediction based on that info. Thats how a man would do it. This sounds like a god who is in time--a logical and mathematical impossibility --infintine regression never arrives at the present.

I want you to consider a timeless God is what 99.9 % of christians and theologians believe. They see no problem with God's effects being caused fom eternity. Just as the spokes from a wheel all originate from 1 point but materialize at different points at the outer edge. People latch onto alternatives due to their own failings--not the teachings failings--so they make up a theory that solves their objection----and they explain away the hundreds of objections their theory causes. All the trees(scripture) must be left standing..you dont chop dont half the forest so another part will be clearer to you.

About freewill--you mentioned random number generator. Now, Im not a calvin or an armin--I believe the complexity of time with timeless makes it possible for us to choose God and for God to choose us. it may be good enough to say we just dont know. It may be unsearchable to our minds and certainly is presented as a paradox in scripture by Paul.

But I play around with it in theory.
Scripture say God knows us fully..what we will say..where we will live..when we are born. Christ would be crucifed just as the serpent was raised by Moses. Jesus would be betrayed for 30 pieces. Cyrus would rule. Exact times nations would rise--how many--and what they would do. Peter would deny christ 3 times before the **** crowed.

He also know what would happen in all circumstances.
1 Samuel 23:11
Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me to him? Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? O LORD, God of Israel, tell your servant." And the LORD said, "He will."

If David went to Keilah..Saul would go there and the people would hand David over. God told David what would happen if David went there. So David did not go. Saul heard david didnt go--so Saul never went..and the people never had the chance to surrender David.

Now, those people would have done this evil. God restrains evil and thus limits what we can do freely. No one could have killed Paul before his time. Jesus needed to live until the passover. But are the people who wanted to kill Paul guity? Yes..sin is of the mind as Jesus clearly points out.

the people of keilah would have betrayed David--they were guilty. God knows us fully. He knows who were are. He knows what we will do. Just because we dont actually do it doesnt clear us.

Matt 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

I have often considered in regard to freewill and God purpose as God weaving together our free choices--who we are--to accomplish his purpose.

In other words, some will say that the men who killed Christ had no choice
Acts 2:23
This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, [ Or of those not having the law (that is, Gentiles)] put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

But did God, who knows who these men are---determining the exact places and times they will live in---weaves toegther their freewill acts to accomplish Salvation. Christ had to die at that exact time in history.

I think anyone who believes in freewill--- believes it's freewill with many conditions.

The last thing is in relation to just who we are. Does God leave it to chance that someone will be smart. That he may have a 100mph fastball? That they may be a musical genius? Does God compose the attributes of their thoughts. I think it is quite clear that just as God choose the color of grass--he created each of us unique.

In regard to Angels, Satan was created with more than other angels.

Calvins would tell you Satan was created to eventually turn bad. But how about this. God creates freewill beings with various gifts and allows various deficiencies. It is Gods will to create a certain number of beings. Their thoughts are allowed to travel in almost any direction. I know you dont want to picture it as like a random number generator--but when allowed to think *most anything we want you cant help but see a pattern form in where some turn bad and some do not.

If we represented thoughts that lead to good or faith by even numbers and thoughts contrary as odd---plus compounded thoughts of either leading to an overwhelming sequence revealing who we actually are--it may look like this

2746986229744227422964446776224226227886622448866

if you look close..the even numbers start to compound the more they are thought and if you continue compounding the amount ---even will outnumber odd by 100 to 1.

Now obviously this illustration is laughable to God. Some little puny man trying imagine how beings are created...but my point is maybe math is not a such a terrible way to approach the fact that a certain percentage of beings will not accept God.

So *if God weaves together who we truly are though history---it follows that it does not voilate who we really are. Pharoah was punk. To harden him in certain situations didnt voilate who he truly was.

Please note I am not saying God looks down though time to see who we truly are. He knows us fully in everyway.

I don't have time to read all this now. but I think I understand where you are going here and agree. I am just trying to demonstrate that even by the assumptions of the OV itself, it has problems. However, it seems there is too much at the level of axiom that is not agreed upon to come up with any sort of real agreement on the issue.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I know it isn't extended through Israel, but it is extended due to Israel's rejection, so that Israel is still a part of it.

So you are saying Israel is a part of the plan because they are NOT a part of the plan.

Even still . . . that wasn't the orginal plan was it?

 

[docrob57]

So you are saying Israel is a part of the plan because they are NOT a part of the plan.

Even still . . . that wasn't the orginal plan was it?

I don't know that it wasn't part of the original plan, no.

 

[docrob57]

I'm beginning to be sort of sorry I brought this up to begin with. I wasn't looking to make "converts," just pointing out what, to me, seems to be a problem with the OV.

I doubt seriously that I have any disagreement with any of you on salvation, and, to me, this is the most important question. I think you are probably right, that predestination is probably not the right way to look at things, but, in the end, I don't think it matters much.

I do think that we are all out here fighting the battle as best we can. And I do think that, as we gather amongst ourselves, we should do a little more to encourage each other in the battle. And I apply that to myself too.

At least I am beginning to understand a little of how Luther felt at Worms

 

[Clete]

Thank you doc for an excellent discussion of one of my favorite subjects! This has been just terrific and I'm sure it will be one of those threads that is remembered and referred to for a long time to come. It's amazing how much ground can be covered when people ask honest questions and give honest answers, even if they don't come to agreement in the end.

God bless you and please don't let this be your last thread!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Thank you doc for an excellent discussion of one of my favorite subjects! This has been just terrific and I'm sure it will be one of those threads that is remember and referred to for a long time to come. It's amazing how much ground can be covered when people ask honest questions and give honest answers, even if they don't come to agreement in the end.

God bless you and please don't let this be your last thread!

Resting in Him,
Clete

:thumb:

 

[DEVO]

Wow, another thread eligible of the OV Hall of Fame. :up:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Inducted into the TOL Hall of Fame 06-10-2005