A problem with open theism (HOF thread)

[Clete]

OV arguments always make the same jump - (emphasis mine)
this just isnt the case. we've argued this in circles though - but if you'd care to try and explain again I'll listen. My arguement has been a choice if made by our will, whether known or not, is still made by our will and is still our choice. The ultimate choice of love is ours, it doesnt matter if its known. The point is it was our choice.

If God knows that in 20 minutes I will be involved in a car accident where I run into a light pole and as a result break both my legs, do I have the option of staying out of my car for the next two hours?

It's a yes or a no sort of question.

If you answer no then that's determinism. I have no ability to do other than what God knows I will do.

If you answer yes then God didn't know in the first place.

I see no other logical alternatives. Do you?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Water does not have freewill in regard to its boiling pint. Water will boil at a certain temperature (depending on conditions) no matter what...... God preordained that.

Therefore your analogy isn't very applicable.

Isn't it possible that God didn't want to predetermine our love (or lack thereof) for Him?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I have to run boys and girls, thank you for the discussion. I will try to rejoin soon. Keep in mind, I am just trying to discuss, I have great respect for you guys.

God Bless You!

I know... I know... I love this topic so don't worry about me, I also respect you so it should be a fun thread.

 

[Freak]

God gives all of humanity free will and yet God knows all.

What I also see here is the long standing friction between two classic interpretations of certain doctrinal camps, namely: the Wesleyan\Methodist\Holiness vs. the Calvinistic\Baptist\Eternal Security (not sure if I have adequately defined these two major camps but I am sure that you know what I mean). The long standing tensions between these two aforementioned doctrinal viewpoints have been debated effectively and exhaustively by both sides for many centuries now, and both camps utilize much scripture and furthermore, each boast an impressive pedigree of adherents.

God gives free will as seen in Scripture and God knows all as seen in Scripture.

 

[Clete]

God gives all of humanity free will and yet God knows all.

How do you address the logical contradiction, or are you content to live with the contradiction?

God gives free will as seen in Scripture and God knows all as seen in Scripture.

God is seen predicting the future but He is also seen making prophecies that do not come to pass and using phrases like "now I know" and "I will know". How do you account for this Biblical evidence that suggests that God's knowledge of the future is not exhaustive?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Agape4Robin]

If God knows that in 20 minutes I will involved in a car accident where I run into a light pole and as a result break both my legs, do I have the option of staying out of my car for the next two hours?

It's a yes or a no sort of question.

If you answer no then that's determinism. I have no ability to do other than what God knows I will do.

If you answer yes then God didn't know in the first place.

I see no other logical alternatives. Do you?

Resting in Him,
Clete

I don't see this as a yes or no, black and white Q&A.
Of course you have always had the option of getting into your car or not, but why? The no's could have many reasons:
1. The baby is out of diapers.
2. Your Aunt Jane is in the hospital and you want to visit her.
3. You must return the video and you hate paying those late fees.
4. Your dog is very sick and you have to take him to the vet.
5. You have to go to work.

Those are just a few examples, now let's look at the consequences if you chose to wait 2 hours.
1. You have a mess of pee and poo.
2. Visiting hours are over in 30 minutes. Aunt Jane is very hurt that her favorite nephew didn't come to see her. She decides to write you out of her will.
3. The video is due by noon and it's 11:45.....
4. The dog dies, the kids are heartbroken.
5. You are late...docked 2 hours pay, or worse yet...fired!

Even if you did break both legs, you can still count yourself lucky.....you didn't end up like Terri Schiavo............

 

[Clete]

I don't see this as a yes or no, black and white Q&A.
Of course you have always had the option of getting into your car or not, but why? The no's could have many reasons:
1. The baby is out of diapers.
2. Your Aunt Jane is in the hospital and you want to visit her.
3. You must return the video and you hate paying those late fees.
4. Your dog is very sick and you have to take him to the vet.
5. You have to go to work.

Those are just a few examples, now let's look at the consequences if you chose to wait 2 hours.
1. You have a mess of pee and poo.
2. Visiting hours are over in 30 minutes. Aunt Jane is very hurt that her favorite nephew didn't come to see her. She decides to write you out of her will.
3. The video is due by noon and it's 11:45.....
4. The dog dies, the kids are heartbroken.
5. You are late...docked 2 hours pay, or worse yet...fired!

Even if you did break both legs, you can still count yourself lucky.....you didn't end up like Terri Schiavo............

All of this is very true! Especially the Terri Schiavo part.

You know what a Calvinist says after he breaks both legs?

Shew! I'm sure glad that's over with! :chuckle:


But you didn't address my actual question. What other logical alternative is there to yes or no in answer to my question?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Freak]

How do you address the logical contradiction, or are you content to live with the contradiction?

It's not a contradiction in God's mind, only in yours.

God is seen predicting the future but He is also seen making prophecies that do not come to pass

Please give me your definition of a "propehcy?"

and using phrases like "now I know" and "I will know". How do you account for this Biblical evidence that suggests that God's knowledge of the future is not exhaustive?

How do you account for the Biblical evidence that suggest that God's knowledge is exhaustive?

 

[Clete]

It's not a contradiction in God's mind, only in yours.

I'll take that to mean that it is in yours as well and that you are content to live with that contradiction. I'm sure you know this already but for those who might not, this is known in theological circles as antinomy. Would you agree that there is unavoidable antinomy in the Christian faith?

Please give me your definition of a "prophecy?"

In this context it is a prediction of some future event.

How do you account for the Biblical evidence that suggest that God's knowledge is exhaustive?

There isn't any.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I don't see this as a yes or no, black and white Q&A.
Of course you have always had the option of getting into your car or not, but why? The no's could have many reasons:
1. The baby is out of diapers.
2. Your Aunt Jane is in the hospital and you want to visit her.
3. You must return the video and you hate paying those late fees.
4. Your dog is very sick and you have to take him to the vet.
5. You have to go to work.

Those are just a few examples, now let's look at the consequences if you chose to wait 2 hours.
1. You have a mess of pee and poo.
2. Visiting hours are over in 30 minutes. Aunt Jane is very hurt that her favorite nephew didn't come to see her. She decides to write you out of her will.
3. The video is due by noon and it's 11:45.....
4. The dog dies, the kids are heartbroken.
5. You are late...docked 2 hours pay, or worse yet...fired!

Even if you did break both legs, you can still count yourself lucky.....you didn't end up like Terri Schiavo............

You have missed the point.

Clete's question assumes that outcome is known by God. In other words in this example God knows that indeed Clete will get in his car drive off and get in the accident. If God has exhaustive foreknowledge God MUST know this outcome to be certain.

That being said, does Clete have the option of NOT getting in his car and therefore avoiding the accident.

Clete states that this is a "yes" or "no" question, I disagree . I think the only logical answer is "no".

How could you answer "yes" (Clete could choose NOT to get in the car) without removing God's exhaustive foreknowledge of the event?

 

[Agape4Robin]

All of this is very true! Especially the Terri Schiavo part.

You know what a Calvinist says after he breaks both legs?

Shew! I'm sure glad that's over with! :chuckle:


But you didn't address my actual question. What other logical alternative is there to yes or no in answer to my question?

Resting in Him,
Clete

A Calvinist joke....... :LoJo:

I got one.....Here are the top ten things you would hear the God of Open Theism say......

10.Ooopppss! :doh:
9.No, I haven't heard the joke about the Open theist.
8. Gee, I hope it works out. :noid:
7.That didn't turn out too well, did it?
6.I'd answer your prayer, but let's just see what will happen first!
5.Wow, that was a surprise! :noway:
4. Please, oh please......believe in Me....
3. I'll get it right next time! :thumb:
2.I wonder if he'll get it right? :think:
And the number one thing you might hear the God of Open Theism say is......
1.Hey! I just learned something! :thumb:


Yeah, I did answer your question....

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I got one.....Here are the top ten things you would hear the god of Open Theism say......

Curious... by not capitalizing the "g" in God are you insinuating that we (open theists) worship different a different God?

 

[Agape4Robin]

Curious... by not capitalizing the "g" in God are you insinuating that we (open theists) worship different a different God?

typo..... :doh:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

A4R...
How could you answer "yes" (Clete could choose NOT to get in the car) without removing God's exhaustive foreknowledge of the event?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

typo..... :doh:

Twice in the same post?

 

[Agape4Robin]

Twice in the same post?

fixed it! :readthis:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

fixed it! :readthis:

Cool.

How about this . . .

How could you answer "yes" (Clete could choose NOT to get in the car) without removing God's exhaustive foreknowledge of the event?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

A Calvinist joke....... :LoJo:

I got one.....Here are the top ten things you would hear the God of Open Theism say......

10.Ooopppss! :doh:
9.No, I haven't heard the joke about the Open theist.
8. Gee, I hope it works out. :noid:
7.That didn't turn out too well, did it?
6.I'd answer your prayer, but let's just see what will happen first!
5.Wow, that was a surprise! :noway:
4. Please, oh please......believe in Me....
3. I'll get it right next time! :thumb:
2.I wonder if he'll get it right? :think:
And the number one thing you might hear the God of Open Theism say is......
1.Hey! I just learned something! :thumb:


Yeah, I did answer your question....

So . . . in your opinion A4R who is "the God of Open Theism"? Is it your God as well?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Robin, I am not just playing games with you here or trying to be petty I have a reason for asking you these questions about your joke.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Cool.

How about this . . .

How could you answer "yes" (Clete could choose NOT to get in the car) without removing God's exhaustive foreknowledge of the event?

I did say that he could choose not to, but in my no answer, I thought I had shown that there could be many reasons why no was the only choice to make......
I am sorry this was not very clear.