Why would God need a hell?
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ttruscott
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5 solid reasons to suspect Adam and Eve were sinners before they ate the fruit:
1. They were called naked, the same word used to designate the serpent's evil when a perfectly good world for being nude without connotation of evil was available. Since there is no sin in being naked yet it was their nakedness they saw when their eyes were opened to their sin, this nakedness must be symbolic for being unclothed before the Lord, that is, evil.
2. The sin they become aware of by eating was their nakedness which they had before they ate.
3. Adam tried to mate with the animals but did not find one suitable to be his helpmate. Was this GOD's idea? Doubtful, eh. But why did GOD not just tell him HE had a suitable mate for him, that is, Eve, if Adam was not rejecting her or the idea of her as the one who could help him? Was GOD holding back necessary input or was HE just resigned to Adam's rebellious, that is, evil pov?
4. Before they ate, they fellowshipped with the serpent, discussed theology and were inclined to follow his definitions of reality. Such an acceptance of the serpent, GOD's great enemy, is obviously idolatry even before Eve ate, a sin that is glossed over because it was already included in the word naked.
5. They were given a command 'not to eat.' The purpose of the law is to teach us (open our eyes) about our own sinfulness: Romans 7:7 ...Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. The fact of the law proves sin.
Since it is obvious that A&E were sinful when they were moved to the garden: (sown there, as it were, as according to Matt 13:37-39 …37 And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil,)
it is easy to see that their eating opened their eyes to their sin which they had been rejecting (they were not ashamed) so they could repent and be brought to Christ (symbolized by the skin coats). At the same time they learned the true nature of the evil of their friend and mentor, the serpent who sold them out for his own ends, and with their idolatry broken by the truth, they would never follow him again.
This event was a great blessing to them and the only reason this story is called the Fall instead of the First Great Blessing on Earth is because of the theory that they were created here on earth and therefore had to be innocent, a fallacy that has caused no end of blasphemy.
"It is better to tell the truth that hurts and heals than to tell a lie that comforts and then kills." ~ Adrian Rogers Eccl 7:5, Pr 27:6
ttruscott
Well-known member
Read it again: only the serpent and the animals are under a curse. A&E were punished but not cursed. The nuances are important.
ttruscott
Well-known member
But why would Eve believe the lie of two parts: you will not die and you will be like GOD?
Consider instead: for those who like long theological arguments...
1. IF she knew she was created as an eternal spirit, she would know she would not die, that is cease to exist, right? And
2. IF she knew she was an elect member of God's church then she would also know she could not die, ie be damned with God's eternal enemies.
What she did not know about yet, being new to physicality, was that bodies could die and our time here was temporary. Therefore the snake may not be presenting himself as an alternative to God, pandering to her most evil covetousness to be like God (the orthodox position) but as a teacher from God explaining the nuances of what she already know to be true, ie she would not die.
v5: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
First is the serpent's opinion that the knowledge would be obtained by an opening of the eyes which was indeed proven out by that exactly happening: V7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened but rather than opening to the sin of their eating, they opened to the sin of their nakedness which they had before they ate. They suddenly could SEE their nakedness - they did not suddenly become naked. And we also have the witness of scripture that nakedness is accompanied by blindness: Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: spoken to a Church of saved souls who were still deep in sin... Of course we all know that sin blinds us to true spiritual value and reality so does this play out with Eve?
No one has ever successfully explained to me how knowing the difference between good and evil is bad. In fact, such knowledge is the base of all religious maturity and perfection:
Hebrews 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
1 Kings 3:9 So give your servant a discerning heart to govern your people and to distinguish between right and wrong. and
Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
All denunciations of Eve surround her wanting to be like God, yet WE ARE TO BECOME LIKE JESUS and emulate the Christ to fulfill HIS plan for us as I John 1, Colossians 3:8-17, and 1 Peter 1:15-16, "But as he which hath called you is holy so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, 'be ye holy; for I am holy'." suggests.
IF she thought the snake was her friend and mentor, her spiritual blindness made her unable to (always, properly) distinguish between good and evil preachers and because she greatly desired to become like the ELOHIM, the same as every believer who would like to get into Paradise, commendable and quite normal, she would follow his advice.
Her sin was in seeking to obtain this worthy goal of becoming like her GOD through the “faithful" act (believing God's promise of election and His description of their lives as eternal) that the serpent suggested to her of disregarding HIS warnings of death to show her faith in HIS promises. She obviously believed that he was trying to help her achieve this goal, but alas, to her shame, he had another goal in mind and was lying to her. Thus we can see that Eve's error was directly attributable to her spiritual blindness, that is, to the fact that she listened to him as if he were her friend and pastor, rather than looking on him as one of her worst enemies.
Now, if GOD created her spiritually blind, that is, in such a way that she would be very prone to looking on the serpent as her friend, and HE refused or neglected to warn her of satan'sss nature, that is, of the incredible danger she would be in if she listened to him, how can we say that GOD loved her or did everything without fault?
One would think that IF HE had any love in HIM, HE would have warned her about the snake, HE doing everything perfectly and she being so "blind, naive, innocent and undefiled," right?
OR IF He had warned her (as a naive innocent) to rightly discern the evil of the snake, then she could not be blind and would have sought God about the snake's message.
Of course, IF she was already defiled and blinded by her unwillingness to believe GOD's word about HIS enemies and by her friendliness towards them,
then GOD just might have put her in HIS earthly garden and allowed the serpent to beguile her into eating her way out of it, without warning her of his evil intentions, so that she would learn of the snake's true character through this nasty experience, since she was unwilling to believe HIM about HIS enemies,
so that the next time HE called for a judgement against all of HIS enemies, she for one, would be willing to believe HIM that such a judgement was absolutely necessary for a peaceful life in Eden (having found that out by her experience) and she would not be beguiled out of that judgement (peaceful life) again.
Secondly:
v6: And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil is the same as wisdom here.
It is wise to want to end your blindness so you can discern good and evil and to want to become like your God. But this understanding she had that the fruit was good for these things implies that she knew she was blind, unable to tell between good and evil and not like her God and that she wanted to be healed.
Which begs the question, how did she get that way, supposedly just created perfect?
But since she wanted to be cured, then GOD could not have told her that evil spirits were allowed into the garden and could beguile her if she listened, and if GOD did not tell her, nor create her this way, this only leaves us with the other way, to wit:
she knew she was blind because she had previously been able to see, and this being the case, she had to look on life on earth as being a spiritual hospital or correctional centre for her faulty vision (and whatever caused it).
In other words, the fact that she was spiritually blind means that she previously had chosen to be unfaithful (the only way one becomes blinded) and the dearth of blatant witness to any prior unfaithfulness in Eden can only mean that her faithlessness had taken place before she was given life in a body on earth, and that earthly life was created to be the means of bringing her to repentance and faithfulness (sight) again.
He won't co-exist with the sinner (Jer. 6:30). :listen: That's the point. You won't coexist with raw sewage :granite: and he won't coexist with the filthy reprobate (2 Tim. 3:8).
Apple7
New member
Of what Hebrew word do you speak of here...?
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak [John 12:47–50].
"...Jesus came the first time as the Savior: “I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.” The next time He will come as the Judge. The voice from heaven is still saying to us, “… This is my beloved Son … hear ye him” (Matt. 17:5)...Men had turned their backs on that voice; they had rejected the King. When they had done this, the King rejected them..." McGee, J. V. (1991). Thru the Bible commentary: The Gospels (John 11-21) (electronic ed., Vol. 39, pp. 53–54). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
Mickiel
New member
Because that was not a lie, they did not die right then and they were in God's image. Adam lived 930 years, and Eve may have also.
He'll be standing somewhere near Alexander the coppersmith
opcorn:Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words (2 Ti 4:14–15).
You know where we are. :Shimei: Mt 24:33, Re 12:12
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:yawn: Jud 1:9
"The critics of the Savior (Lk 5:21–24a)
Their denunciation (Lk 5:21) : The Pharisees accuse Jesus of blasphemy for forgiving the man’s sins, saying only God could do this!
His defense (Lk 5:22–24a): Jesus says that his power to heal the man’s body proves his authority to save the man’s soul!" Willmington, H. L. (1999). The Outline Bible (Lk 5:21–26). Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publishers.
:yawn: John 3:18, 19
Ro 10:17
By: the Holy Spirit (John 3:5, 8; Titus 3:5), the word of God (James 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:23) and faith (1 John 5:1).
Mickiel
New member
Why would God need a hell, when he is a super expert at changing the human heart? In Jer. 24:7, " And I will give them a heart to know me, that I am God; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God; they will return to me with their whole heart." God can give people a heart to know him, meaning he can manipulate the human consciousness toward him.
This is good news for unbelievers.
This is good news for unbelievers.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Love's will...............
Love's will...............
Love must ultimately prevail, because 'God' is Love.
Love's will...............
Love must ultimately prevail, because 'God' is Love.
It is good news....many have lived and died without ever having their hearts and minds changed
What does Obama have to do with anything? What does Obama have to do with Hell? Does Obama need a Hell? Is Obama the topic of this thread? I admit that I voted for Obama one time, in the primary when he was running against Hillary. Then I voted against him in November. I voted for iforgothisname. It's too bad that there wasn't a stronger opponent of Obama to vote for.
I guess my point is that it is hard to criticize someone for their vote when the other side doesn't give us candidate to vote for.
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