ECT Why shouldn't I convert from Evangelical Protestant to Catholic?

[meshak]

But that's the only way as far as I am concerned.

Nope, that's not the only way.

It is hard not be one of majority but that's what it is if you are aiming to be perfect which that's what Jesus commands.

 

[aikido7]

Nope, that's not the only way.

It is hard not be one of majority but that's what it is if you are aiming to be perfect which that's what Jesus commands.

Thanks for the dose of some needed humility, meshak.

What I probably meant to say is that so far it is the only way for me. It's the only way *I* have now to make some common sense of the Christian tradition.

 

[meshak]

are you saying He didn't build His church?

I already responded about it.

Don't harp on to me like you always do.

 

[meshak]

Thanks for the dose of some needed humility, meshak.

What I probably meant to say is that so far it is the only way for me. It's the only way *I* have now to make some common sense of the Christian tradition.

So you want to please the world, not God nor Jesus.

Jesus says if you are friend of the world, love of the Father is not in you.

 

[chrysostom]

I already responded about it.

Don't harp on to me like you always do.

I will not bother you again

 

[aikido7]

So you want to please the world, not God nor Jesus.

Jesus says if you are friend of the world, love of the Father is not in you.

I want to be kind and respectful to all those in the world. By doing that it is my belief that this activity is helping to discover and carry out Jesus' Kingdom of God.

And since Jesus is God for me, I feel I am pleasing God.

The bold-faced quotation is (to me) an obvious expression of the Jews and pagans "out in the world" who did not accept Jesus and were having real conflicts with the early followers.

God pronounced his creation "good" after it was brought into being. That's good enough for me.

Boy, to me you seem like you are now hovering around my posts and just waiting for an excuse to attack me or set me straight. Can you give me an idea of what your main complaints about me are? You can do it in a PM if you want.

 

[meshak]

I want to be kind and respectful to all those in the world. By doing that it is my belief that this activity is helping to discover and carry out Jesus' Kingdom of God.

You can be kind and love by spreading Jesus. Without Jesus we are meaningless.

 

[aikido7]

You can be kind and love by spreading Jesus. Without Jesus we are meaningless.

What prevented you from reading my post you are replying to?

I specifically tried to indicate that I am trying to help God by helping Jesus bring the Kingdom of God down on earth--where God is the sovereign ruler.

Not Caesar, the Roman Empire or the American Empire.

 

[meshak]

What prevented you from reading my post you are replying to?

I specifically tried to indicate that I am trying to help God by helping Jesus bring the Kingdom of God down on earth--where God is the sovereign ruler.

Not Caesar, the Roman Empire or the American Empire.

You cannot make kingdom of God in this world. It will not happen until Jesus starts to reign.

You need to spread Jesus to the world so they can join in God's kingdom in second life.

 

[aikido7]

You cannot make kingdom of God in this world. It will not happen until Jesus starts to reign.

You need to spread Jesus to the world so they can join in God's kingdom in second life.

I don't see Jesus' descriptions of the Kingdom of God as advocating that.

They begin with a description of Jesus' and his followers' everyday world. Then they suddenly veer off an dislocate and challenge that everyday world. As careful listeners, we are forced into a choice.
Or into perplexity and confusion.

Jesus--in my view--never saw himself as divine. There are too many discrepancies in the Bible that challenge that tradition.

I do affirm that he is Son of God, Savior, divine because I respond to the ways in which his contemporaries and later followers saw him.
I agree with them. But it is metaphoric and faith language. It is not factual description. It is "belief-based."

 

[meshak]

Jesus--in my view--never saw himself as divine. There are too many discrepancies in the Bible that challenge that tradition.

I am not a trinity believer.

I do affirm that he is Son of God, Savior, divine because I respond to the ways in which his contemporaries and later followers saw him.
I agree with them. But it is metaphoric and faith language. It is not factual description. It is "belief-based."

So what is your point?

 

[Arsenios]

This is a grievous error that makes God to be impotent.

A regenerated person ("born again") cannot fall away, else that person was never regenerated by the power of the Spirit in the first place. Our Lord's high priestly prayer makes it clear that none that were given to Him by the Father will be lost to Him. If they are lost, they were not given in the first place. The indwelling of the Spirit in the believer is not keeping house with the devil for that divided house cannot stand. Those in Hell have no indwelt Spirit. So, per your notions, the Spirit was driven out of the one so "born again" now residing in Hell. Accordingly, losing the indwelt presence of the Spirit means that the forces of darkness were more powerful that the force of Light. May it never be!

So how then do you answer Paul in Hebrews?

Heb 6:4-5 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Who ARE these PARTAKERS of the Holy Spirit?

And when combined with Paul's admonition to persevere in the Faith of Christ to the end in order to be saved, are we not compelled to identify these as those who are believers called of the Holy Spirit?

I mean, can a person be a PARTEKER of the Holy Spirit, and taste the Good Word of God and the Powers of the world to come, and NOT be born again??

Heb 6:6 And having fallen away,

And here having fallen away?

I mean, the early Church imposed great penances on those who denied Christ under secular persecutions, that they should re-gain what they had lost... Those times are coming again, my Brother...

Heb 6:6 to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

And this shows their end if they do not turn away from their error...

It is hard not to understand this as having had the Faith, having fallen away from the Faith, and having not turned back to the Faith they had already received, being escorted into destruction...

Or, one may think,

"I can lose my salvation, after all..."

Paul seems to think so above...

And elsewhere where he says: "Lest I find myself unapproved."

"justification is a process”.

The healing of the fallen human soul is a lifelong process of gradually becoming right in one's voluntary relationship with God. It is much like physical therapy for an injury... The recovery will go no further that YOU do, and God will support you in whatever you decide...

"I perform works to meet the requirements of this process”.

That is western legalism speaking, AMR... And it may be true in the Latin confession, for they tend to be legalists as well... And you are their progeny, and not ours...

The truth is, as Paul instructe, we are to "run the race set before us, and patiently, for the healing of the fallen human soul gripped in the passions of this fallen world is slow and time consuming, for we are putting to death our members, and this is the cross we must take up...

Heb_12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses,
let us lay aside every weight,
and the sin which doth so easily beset us,
and let us run with patience
the race that is set
before us,

Therefore, I am saved…by my works.

We are saved by God, through the Faith which Christ discipled to His Apostles...

This Faith is discipled by voluntary obedience, "carefully and with exactitude carrying out ALL that I have COMMANDED you to be doing." You know the passage... This Faith of Christ is a DISCIPLED Faith, and Paul tells us to be obedient to those who have the Rule over us, that they not be grieved...

And James tells us that through the works of the Faith is Faith made perfect... The works do not save, but Christ does... And He set up His Ekklesia so that by our voluntary participation in obeying His commandments, we shall be saved, IF we persevere to the end...

Because the person's doctrine is faulty, his or her assurance has no firm basis.

Human assurance means nothing...

There is no height from which a believer cannot fall. Therefore we must run the race with patience to the end, lest we fall... But more than that, we run because we love God, and doing anything else is unseemly for this love...

Another way that people falsely assure themselves of salvation is by believing that they will get to heaven by trying to live a good life. Those who think they are living a good enough life to satisfy the demands of a holy God are only deluding themselves into thinking they are saved.

I am persuaded that many of these are going to be far ahead of me in the line of the saved, if I manage even to BE in that line...

But what if a person has a sound doctrinal knowledge of salvation? Is it still possible to have false assurance? We must answer yes.

I am holding my breath... Paul may be too...

A person might think he has saving faith but not really possess it.

GASP!!! Even with sound doctrine of Salvation??

(Professing but not possessing.)

Then Salvation is not about doctrine, but about the quality of one's walk... Christ did say that we will be judged by our works...

The test for authentic assurance is twofold.
On the one hand, we must examine our own hearts to see if we have true faith in Christ.
We must see whether or not we have any genuine love for the Biblical Christ.
For we know such love for Him would be impossible without regeneration.

Well, these are all self-determinations...

Self-denial would seem to argue against this self-determination...

Second, we must examine the fruit of our faith. We do not need perfect fruit to have assurance, but there must be some evidence of the fruit of obedience for our profession of faith to be credible. If no fruit is present, then no faith is present, for that very fruit is wrought by God and He is not a God who fails. Accordingly, where saving faith is found, fruit of that faith is also always found. We must also understand that not all trees bear the same amount of good fruit, but they do in fact bear good fruit. We get into trouble by becoming "fruit inspectors" and measuring one's fruit against another, forgetting the teachings of Scripture concerning the rewards in heaven based upon our walk of faith on earth. Everyone's cup in heaven is full, it's just that some cups are larger than others'.

Fruit inspectors indeed! The simple fact is that we are not equipped to self-examine our own fruit... Obedience, btw, is a WORK that produces FRUIT... So we are to OBEY some other physical person, as Paul instructs? eg Those having the Rule OVER you? And exactly WHAT RULE is he talking about?

Finally, we seek our assurance from the Word of God through which the Holy Spirit bears witness to our spirit that we are His children.

We cannot assure ourselves...

And where in the Bible does it say we are to assure ourselves of our Salvation? Paul got a thorn in the flesh, and subjugated his body under him, and not as some sissie shadow boxer merely beating the air either, and was this to assure himself he was saved? Or was it, as he reported, in order that he not be lost, having instructed others?

Arsenios

 

[meshak]

Fruit inspectors indeed! The simple fact is that we are not equipped to self-examine our own fruit...

Some are obvious; how about organizations being pro-military? It sure is ungodly fruit.

 

[aikido7]

I am not a trinity believer.



So what is your point?

I enrich my faith by separating Jesus from Christ.

Jesus was the teacher who brought God to earth. Christ was the title given to him by men who were inspired by their Creator.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

...

And where in the Bible does it say we are to assure ourselves of our Salvation? Paul got a thorn in the flesh, and subjugated his body under him, and not as some sissie shadow boxer merely beating the air either, and was this to assure himself he was saved? Or was it, as he reported, in order that he not be lost, having instructed others?

Arsenios

I take from your post you disagree with the perseverance of the saints, holding instead one actually ?regenerated can become unregenerated. Have I misread you?

Scripture offers up plenty of reason for assurance of the believer:

As is stated from the WCF

"True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as,
- by negligence in preserving of it,
- by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit;
- by some sudden or vehement temptation,
- by God’s withdrawing the light of His countenance, and suffering even such as fear Him to walk in darkness and to have no light: (Cant. 5:2, 3, 6, Ps. 51:8, 12, 14, Eph. 4:30, 31,Ps. 77:1-10, Matt. 26:69-72, Ps. 31:22, Ps. 88, Isa. 50:10)

...yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; (1 John 3:9, Luke 22:32, Job 13:15, Ps. 73:15, Ps. 51:8, 12, Isa. 50:10) and be the which, in the mean time, they are supported from utter despair. (Micah 7:7-9, Jer. 32:40, Isa. 54:7-10, Ps. 22:1, Ps. 88)"
​

It is to believers that assurance belongs. It does not belong to those who "know" just how much or how excellent is their faith. It is the Object of our faith that saves, and it is His hold on us, not our hold on Him. Faith the size of a grain of mustard seed is more than enough to save the weakest sinner--let it only be in Christ.

From the WLC:

Spoiler

"Q. 80. Can true believers be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and that they shall persevere therein unto salvation?

"A. Such as truly believe in Christ, and endeavor to walk in all good conscience before him, may, without extraordinary revelation, by faith grounded upon the truth of God’s promises, and by the Spirit enabling them to discern in themselves those graces to which the promises of life are made, and bearing witness with their spirits that they are the children of God, be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace and shall persevere therein unto salvation. 1 John 2:3; 1 Cor. 2:12; 1 John 3:14, 18-19, 21, 24; 1 John 4:13, 16; Heb. 6: 11- 12; Rom. 8:16; 1 John 5:13.

"Q. 81. Are all true believers at all times assured of their present being in the estate of grace, and that they shall be saved?

"A. Assurance of grace and salvation not being of the essence of faith, true believers may wait long before they obtain it; and, after the enjoyment thereof, may have it weakened and intermitted, through manifold distempers, sins, temptations, and desertions; yet are they never left without such a presence and support of the Spirit of God, as keeps them from sinking into utter despair. Eph. 1:13; Isa. 1:10; Ps. 88:1-18; Ps. 77:1-12; Song of Sol. 5:2-3, 6; Ps. 51:8, 12; Ps. 31:22; Ps. 22:1; 1 John 3:9; Job 13:15; Ps. 73:15, 23; Isa. 54:7-10."

That we can be certain of our full assurance, without any sort of extraordinary revelation, is clear from Scripture. We need to trust God's word, not our fickle feelings, when He says "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13

It is through the Scripture that the Spirit bears witness to us that we are God's adopted children. The underlying text of the New Testament for "assurance" means "full assurance, certainty". The word (pleroforia) with this clear meaning appears only four times in the New Testament: 1 Cor. 2:2; 1 Thess. 1:5; Heb. 6:11; 10:22.


As to the classic Hebrews passage underlying the assumption that one can lose one's true faith, I would demur along the following lines...

View attachment 19877

In other words, something along these lines from a previous post of mine that was deleted with the last database cleansing...

Spoiler

Hebrews 6:4-6:
Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

In the entire epistle the author is admonishing the reader to accept the Gospel in faith and not fall into the sin of unbelief that will lead to judgment (see Hebrews 2:1-3; Hebrews 3:12-14; Hebrews 4:1, 6; 11; Hebrews 10:25, 27, 31; Hebrews 12:16-17, 25, 29).

Yet, in Hebrews 6:4-6 the recipients of the Epistle are not addressed. Rather a truth is stated emerging from an earlier reference to the Israelites falling in the desert because of unbelief. This truth applies also to the Hebrews, despite the author’s omitting personal reference in Hebrews 6:4-6.

Three points divide the text:
1. Who are the people mentioned? The people mentioned are characterized by four Greek participles displaying poetic rhythm—enlightened, tasted, partakers, tasted.

“those who have once been enlightened”
Here, and in Hebrews 10:32, “enlightened” means “knowledge of the truth” as in Hebrews 10:26. The verb is not related to baptism, but has a broader meaning as indicated by other usages in Luke 11:36; John 1:9; 1 Cor. 4:5; Ephesians 1:28, 39; 2 Timothy 1:10; Rev. 18:1; Rev. 21:23; Rev. 22:5. Yet nothing here means persons that have once been saved.

“{who} have tasted of the heavenly gift”
Attempts to limit this to mean those new converts that have attended worship, made professions of faith, celebrated the Lord’s Supper, etc., are viewing the passage too narrowly, for we find the broader explanation in the New Testament:
- Jesus calls Himself, “the gift of God” (John 4:10)
- Peter names the Spirit the gift of God (Acts 2:38; Acts 8:20; Acts 10:45; Acts 11:17)
- Paul mentions “the gift of grace”, “the gift of righteousness”, associating them with Christ (Romans 5:15; Romans 5:17, 2 Cor. 9:15; Ephesians 3:7; Ephesians 4:7).

“{who} partakers of the Holy Spirit”
The connection between the preceding clause above and this one is clear from the Greek. We may even see the link between the “laying on of hands” (Hebrews 6:2) and the sharing in the Holy Spirit, especially, from the above, if we understand the heavenly gift to be the Spirit. Sharing in the Spirit implies this is done in fellowship with other believers, with the Spirit manifested in various gifts given to the church members (1 Cor. 12:7-11). Many partake of the Spirit without being indwelt by the Spirit.

“{who} have tasted the good word of God”
No extent of the Word is specified, only that it is good. Men receive a good gift each time God speaks. Again the writer uses “tasted” to indicate enjoyment of receiving this gift. The enjoyment is the hearing of the proclamation of the Scriptures and in getting some sense of sustenance from that Word.

“the powers of the age to come”
Experiencing “the powers of the age to come” is from the continuation of tasting the Word of God. Note the use of the plural, “powersb don’t what these powers are, for the author does not say, but we know they belong to the coming age, but they are also in evidence in this age (the apostles demonstrated some), and are intended to advance the church across the world.

The phrase, “the age to come” (or small variants) appears only six times in the NT, so we need to use some due care in interpreting it (see, Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Ephesians 1:21; 2:7l Hebrews 6:5). In principle we are able to experience in this age the powers that belong to the future age (see TDNT, vol. 1, page 206). We will fully realize the supernatural powers we can now observe at the dawn of the coming age.

What we have so far is that a number of experiences some persons have had are described by the author. These experiences are not exclusive to the regenerated (saved) person. The author just lists these experiences, never clarifying who actually experiences them. But, he continues…

2. What happens to the people mentioned?
“and then have fallen away”
Hardened hearts spring from non-belief, and their disobedience caused the Israelites to fall in the desert. They fell from non-belief despite having even put blood on doorposts, saw the pillar of fire by night, eaten the Passover lamb, consecrated first born males, heard the voice of God, and tasted manna daily. They had tasted, been enlightened, shared in gifts of the Spirit, witnessed wonders, miracles and by their non-belief “then have fallen away”, these unbelievers have crossed beyond the point of return, “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance”

3. Why is this so?
“since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.”
It is significant that in the enumeration of the divine gifts received by those who are conceived as afterwards falling away there is no one gift which passes out of the individual. All are gifts of power, of personal endowment. There is no gift of love one would expect to find if Hebrews 6:4-6 was addressing the believer. Under this aspect light falls upon the passage from Matt. 7:22 f.; 1 Cor. 13:1. In this connection it will be noticed that it was the presence of love among the Hebrews which inspired the Apostle with confidence (Heb. 6:10).

If the “losing one’s salvation” interpretation were true, however, the passage would also teach that, once lost, salvation could never be regained. But Christians are not being addressed, and it is the opportunity for receiving salvation, not salvation itself, that can be lost. The previous topics— intellectual enlightenment about God’s word, tasting God’s gifts and His Spirit, and so forth—accompany revelation, not salvation. They are meant, of course, to help lead to salvation, but they do not do so apart from faith in Jesus Christ.

In summary, nothing in this passage makes it apply explicitly to the believer. The passage is directly applicable to those with "temporary faith"- not true faith in Christ.

Temporary faith...

1. is enlightened, tasted the goodness of the word, from hearing the gospel message and knew the way to be saved, but rejects it as in (Matthew 13:20-21)
2. tasted the heavenly gift of Christ, but never received Him. Just as Christ tasted but did not eat or drink the wine mixed with gall (Matthew 27:34), we must eat and drink of Christ (John 6:53)
3. partakes of the Spirit, such as convicting (John 16:8), and being placed in positions of external privilege (1 Cor. 7:14)
4. tasted the powers of the age to come such as witnessing to miracles that foreshadowed the wonders of the coming kingdom of Christ

Having participated and experienced all of these things, yet still rejecting Christ, means no redemption is possible. One example, Judas, clearly fit each of the items described above.

AMR

 

[Arsenios]

I take from your post you disagree with the perseverance of the saints, holding instead one actually regenerated can become unregenerated.
Have I misread you?

They can fall away, as Paul clearly states...

And if they do, their end is to be burnt up...

Scripture offers up plenty of reason for assurance of the believer:

Oh there is plenty of reason for assurance, but none for self-assurance...

That we can be certain of our full assurance, without any sort of extraordinary revelation, is clear from Scripture. We need to trust God's word, not our fickle feelings, when He says "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13

To perceive that one is in possession of Life Eternal, which is John's purpose here, is not what you are claiming, but instead you are claiming that it cannot be lost.

It is through the Scripture that the Spirit bears witness to us that we are God's adopted children.

The Holy Spirit is not contained by written words...

Hebrews 6:4-6:
Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

In the entire epistle the author is admonishing the reader to accept the Gospel in faith and not fall into the sin of unbelief that will lead to judgment (see Hebrews 2:1-3; Hebrews 3:12-14; Hebrews 4:1, 6; 11; Hebrews 10:25, 27, 31; Hebrews 12:16-17, 25, 29).

Then if you believe this, then you MUST believe that the reader CAN fall into sin unto judgement...

Yet, in Hebrews 6:4-6 the recipients of the Epistle are not addressed. Rather a truth is stated emerging from an earlier reference to the Israelites falling in the desert because of unbelief. This truth applies also to the Hebrews, despite the author’s omitting personal reference in Hebrews 6:4-6.

Then was the type, now in believers is its fulfillment.

Believers CAN fall, to their destruction.

Three points divide the text:
1. Who are the people mentioned? The people mentioned are characterized by four Greek participles displaying poetic rhythm—enlightened, tasted, partakers, tasted.

The people mentioned are Christians.

“those who have once been enlightened”
Here, and in Hebrews 10:32, “enlightened” means “knowledge of the truth” as in Hebrews 10:26. The verb is not related to baptism, but has a broader meaning as indicated by other usages in Luke 11:36; John 1:9; 1 Cor. 4:5; Ephesians 1:28, 39; 2 Timothy 1:10; Rev. 18:1; Rev. 21:23; Rev. 22:5. Yet nothing here means persons that have once been saved.

Enlightened means the illumination of the nous by the action of the Holy Spirit.

“{who} have tasted of the heavenly gift”
Attempts to limit this to mean those new converts that have attended worship, made professions of faith, celebrated the Lord’s Supper, etc., are viewing the passage too narrowly, for we find the broader explanation in the New Testament:
- Jesus calls Himself, “the gift of God” (John 4:10)
- Peter names the Spirit the gift of God (Acts 2:38; Acts 8:20; Acts 10:45; Acts 11:17)
- Paul mentions “the gift of grace”, “the gift of righteousness”, associating them with Christ (Romans 5:15; Romans 5:17, 2 Cor. 9:15; Ephesians 3:7; Ephesians 4:7).

The Heavenly Gift that is TASTED is Communion, the Blessed Bread and Wine that ARE the Body and Blood of our Lord, the Cup which we Bless, as Christ did...

“{who} partakers of the Holy Spirit”
The connection between the preceding clause above and this one is clear from the Greek. We may even see the link between the “laying on of hands” (Hebrews 6:2) and the sharing in the Holy Spirit, especially, from the above, if we understand the heavenly gift to be the Spirit. Sharing in the Spirit implies this is done in fellowship with other believers, with the Spirit manifested in various gifts given to the church members (1 Cor. 12:7-11). Many partake of the Spirit without being indwelt by the Spirit.

This refers to the Anointing of the Holy Spirit following Baptism...

“{who} have tasted the good word of God”
No extent of the Word is specified, only that it is good. Men receive a good gift each time God speaks. Again the writer uses “tasted” to indicate enjoyment of receiving this gift. The enjoyment is the hearing of the proclamation of the Scriptures and in getting some sense of sustenance from that Word.

Only One is Good...

“the powers of the age to come”
Experiencing “the powers of the age to come” is from the continuation of tasting the Word of God. Note the use of the plural, “powersb don’t [state] what these powers are, for the author does not say, but we know they belong to the coming age, but they are also in evidence in this age (the apostles demonstrated some), and are intended to advance the church across the world.

These are the supra-natural Gifts of the Holy Spirit... [Not super-]

The phrase, “the age to come” (or small variants) appears only six times in the NT, so we need to use some due care in interpreting it (see, Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Ephesians 1:21; 2:7l Hebrews 6:5). In principle we are able to experience in this age the powers that belong to the future age (see TDNT, vol. 1, page 206). We will fully realize the supernatural powers we can now observe at the dawn of the coming age.

We confess in the Nicene Creed: "I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the Life of the Age to Come..."

What we have so far is that a number of experiences some persons have had are described by the author. These experiences are not exclusive to the regenerated (saved) person. The author just lists these experiences, never clarifying who actually experiences them. But, he continues…

This is a profound trivialization of the meaning of this text...

2. What happens to the people mentioned?
“and then have fallen away”
Hardened hearts spring from non-belief, and their disobedience caused the Israelites to fall in the desert. They fell from non-belief despite having even put blood on doorposts, saw the pillar of fire by night, eaten the Passover lamb, consecrated first born males, heard the voice of God, and tasted manna daily. They had tasted, been enlightened, shared in gifts of the Spirit, witnessed wonders, miracles and by their non-belief “then have fallen away”, these unbelievers have crossed beyond the point of return, “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance”

Type and Fulfillment...

When this was written, were NON-believers tasting the Heavenly Gift? Partaking of the Holy Spirit? Tasting the Powers of the Age to Come? Tasting the Good Word of God?

Can you not see that ONLY Believers can fall away from the Faith?

3. Why is this so?
“since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.”
It is significant that in the enumeration of the divine gifts received by those who are conceived as afterwards falling away there is no one gift which passes out of the individual. All are gifts of power, of personal endowment. There is no gift of love one would expect to find if Hebrews 6:4-6 was addressing the believer. Under this aspect light falls upon the passage from Matt. 7:22 f.; 1 Cor. 13:1. In this connection it will be noticed that it was the presence of love among the Hebrews which inspired the Apostle with confidence (Heb. 6:10).

Suddenly the references to the Israelites in the desert disappear... Just when we were told that this was all about them... But they, of course, could NOT put Jesus Christ to open shame...

If the “losing one’s salvation” interpretation were true, however, the passage would also teach that, once lost, salvation could never be regained. But Christians are not being addressed, and it is the opportunity for receiving salvation, not salvation itself, that can be lost. The previous topics— intellectual enlightenment about God’s word, tasting God’s gifts and His Spirit, and so forth—accompany revelation, not salvation. They are meant, of course, to help lead to salvation, but they do not do so apart from faith in Jesus Christ.

Being baptized into Christ, being sealed in the Holy spirit, eating the Body and drinking the Blood of the Risen Christ, and moving in the powers of the Age to Come [eg an earnest] IS Salvation...

In summary, nothing in this passage makes it apply explicitly to the believer. The passage is directly applicable to those with "temporary faith"- not true faith in Christ.

Temporary faith...

Only by trivializing and dissembling these holy words can one come to such a conclusion...

1. is enlightened, tasted the goodness of the word, from hearing the gospel message and knew the way to be saved, but rejects it as in (Matthew 13:20-21)
2. tasted the heavenly gift of Christ, but never received Him. Just as Christ tasted but did not eat or drink the wine mixed with gall (Matthew 27:34), we must eat and drink of Christ (John 6:53)
3. partakes of the Spirit, such as convicting (John 16:8), and being placed in positions of external privilege (1 Cor. 7:14)
4. tasted the powers of the age to come such as witnessing to miracles that foreshadowed the wonders of the coming kingdom of Christ

Having participated and experienced all of these things, yet still rejecting Christ, means no redemption is possible. One example, Judas, clearly fit each of the items described above.[/spoiler]

So did Peter, who denied Christ three times...

But repented...

Arsenios

 

[republicanchick]

where is the originator of this thread RichRock?


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[journey]

where is the originator of this thread RichRock?


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Banned.

 

[lifeisgood]

I am not a trinity believer.

So you do not believe Father, Son, Paraclete?

 

[republicanchick]

Banned.

for what?

and it seems he has been banned a long time, which is rather unusual



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