ECT Why shouldn't I convert from Evangelical Protestant to Catholic?

lifeisgood

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1 Corinthians 10:16
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

1 Corinthians 11:27
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.​

Matthew 26:26, Mark 14:22, John 6:51.

So, not only did Jesus cut a piece of His flesh and transformed it in bread and gave to His disciples to eat, then He slashed his vein and filled the cup and gave it to His disciples to drink. :nono:

Now Paul was given the power also to do the same thing, slicing a piece of Jesus' skin and transforming it in bread and slashing Jesus' vein and filling the cup with His blood and transforming it in wine and giving it to the disciples. :nono:

Where can I go and get a slice of Jesus' skin to get bread and slash His vein and get blood that is wine? :nono:

How foolish can we be to think that the wafer is transformed in the skin of Jesus and we are eating His skin and the wine is transformed in the blood of Jesus and we are drinking His blood. How foolish indeed.
 

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So, not only did Jesus cut a piece of His flesh and transformed it in bread and gave to His disciples to eat, then He slashed his vein and filled the cup and gave it to His disciples to drink. :nono:

Now Paul was given the power also to do the same thing, slicing a piece of Jesus' skin and transforming it in bread and slashing Jesus' vein and filling the cup with His blood and transforming it in wine and giving it to the disciples. :nono:

Where can I go and get a slice of Jesus' skin to get bread and slash His vein and get blood that is wine? :nono:

How foolish can we be to think that the wafer is transformed in the skin of Jesus and we are eating His skin and the wine is transformed in the blood of Jesus and we are drinking His blood. How foolish indeed.

Ephesians 5:30
for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

1 Corinthians 10:17
For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.​

This was also the teaching of the earliest Christians, for example:

Ignatius of Antioch:

"...the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead." (Ignatius of Antioch, "Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.)

"Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his Blood, and one single altar of sacrifice..." (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 110]).​

Justin Martyr:

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

"God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by [the Jews]. . . [Mal. 1:10–11]. He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and also the cup of the Eucharist" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 41 [A.D. 155]).​

Irenaeus:

"[T]he bread over which thanks have been given is the body of their Lord, and the cup His blood..." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:18,4 (c. A.D. 200).

"He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, ‘This is my body.’ The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, he confessed to be his blood. He taught the new sacrifice of the new covenant, of which Malachi, one of the twelve [minor] prophets, had signified beforehand...[Mal. 1:10–11]. By these words he makes it plain that the former people will cease to make offerings to God; but that in every place sacrifice will be offered to him, and indeed, a pure one, for his name is glorified among the Gentiles" (Against Heresies 4:17:5 [A.D. 189]).​

Source: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-sacrifice-of-the-mass

See also: John 6:48-59 and 1 Corinthians 10:16.

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"...it cannot be denied that Clement of Rome (Ep. ad Cor., xliv, 4), the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (Didache, xiv), and Tertullian (On Baptism 17; "De præsc. hær.", xli; "De exhort. cast.", vii) recognize an official priesthood with the objective Sacrifice of the Mass."

Malachi’s prediction (Mal 1:10-11) that the Lord would reject Jewish sacrifices and instead would have "a pure offering" made to him by the Gentiles in every place was seized upon by Christians as a prophecy of the Eucharist...The fulfillment of prophecy demanded a solemn Christian offering, and the rite itself was wrapped in the sacrificial atmosphere with which our Lord invested the Last Supper.​

For additional information, see these links:

www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-real-presence

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html

See also this link for the views of a number of prominent Protestant historians: http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/12/church-fathers-and-sacrifice-of-mass.html
 
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God's Truth

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Ephesians 5:30
for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

1 Corinthians 10:17
For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.​

This was also the teaching of the earliest Christians, for example:

Ignatius of Antioch:

"...the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead." (Ignatius of Antioch, "Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.)

"Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his Blood, and one single altar of sacrifice..." (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 110]).​

Justin Martyr:

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

"God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you. . . [Mal. 1:10–11]. He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and also the cup of the Eucharist" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 41 [A.D. 155]).​

Irenaeus:

"[T]he bread over which thanks have been given is the body of their Lord, and the cup His blood..." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:18,4 (c. A.D. 200).

"He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, ‘This is my body.’ The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, he confessed to be his blood. He taught the new sacrifice of the new covenant, of which Malachi, one of the twelve [minor] prophets, had signified beforehand...[Mal. 1:10–11]. By these words he makes it plain that the former people will cease to make offerings to God; but that in every place sacrifice will be offered to him, and indeed, a pure one, for his name is glorified among the Gentiles" (Against Heresies 4:17:5 [A.D. 189]).​

Source: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-sacrifice-of-the-mass

See also: John 6:48-59 and 1 Corinthians 10:16.

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"...it cannot be denied that Clement of Rome (Ep. ad Cor., xliv, 4), the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (Didache, xiv), and Tertullian (On Baptism 17; "De præsc. hær.", xli; "De exhort. cast.", vii) recognize an official priesthood with the objective Sacrifice of the Mass."

Malachi’s prediction (Mal 1:10-11) that the Lord would reject Jewish sacrifices and instead would have "a pure offering" made to him by the Gentiles in every place was seized upon by Christians as a prophecy of the Eucharist...The fulfillment of prophecy demanded a solemn Christian offering, and the rite itself was wrapped in the sacrificial atmosphere with which our Lord invested the Last Supper.​

For additional information, see these links:

www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-real-presence

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html

See also this link for the views of a number of prominent Protestant historians: http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/12/church-fathers-and-sacrifice-of-mass.html

We eat Jesus' flesh by obeying his commands.

The bread and wine are symbolic.
 

God's Truth

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Here is what Scripture actually teaches.


SolaScriptura.jpg



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Adoration is when the Catholics think the priest turned the wafers into Jesus' body, and that they have him in a box so that the parishioners can sit near him and adore him.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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To me this looks like another version of OSAS, except this version includes predestination and perseverance in good works.
No.

The doctrine of OSAS isn't the Reformed doctrine of the Saint's Perseverance. But neither are they correct who embitter souls by teaching that a salvation that is actually theirs can nonetheless be forfeited by the veto-power of the human will. The question of emphasis in giving counsel depends on the need of the person.

OSAS is a johnny-one-note doctrine that comforts the comfortable and disturbed conscience alike with a smothering salve. It usually teaches that "doubt" is the worst sin, and is the one thing that would demonstrate a lack of salvation. Thus, it offers almost nothing of genuine grace to the trembling soul; and for the casual "believer," it assists him in searing his conscience. In either case, the utmost confidence is urged in an act of the human will.

In those who believe true salvation can be lost—even in the most "monergistic" of these systems—hope is again laid in the converse act of the human will once again: the will to maintain ownership of the gift given. This could be where your questions have the most bearing.

Many people who apostatize don't seem to "throw a switch," and walk away. It happens, but seldom. Not a few others slip into sins that corrode the faith-simulacrum they have, until they choose for their sin and against their profession. The Reformed argue that the corrosive power of sin upon genuine faith cannot hollow it out, because the source of that faith is divine, the gifts of God are without repentance, the Lord knows them that are His, no one can pluck them out of His hands, He conquers those He loves and brings them infallibly to Himself, for they are elected in love and in Christ from all eternity.

Instead of a fast-act, or a preference for some sin over knowledge of the truth, many apostates have a love that "grows cold." It does so because it lacks true Spiritual fire (Holy Spirit supplies the motive), Spiritual fuel (neglect of the Spirit-provided means of grace), and especially the Spiritual object to which that love is directed (Christ, as set forth to the eyes of the soul by Holy Spirit). Analogies to marriage abound. Why do some marriages that appear to have life—even for many years—end in divorce for which there appears no rational reason? No more love, no more will, the source of which was entirely internal.

Our major difference with, for instance, the Lutheran view is not that the responsibility for falling away doesn't lie with the individual. There's no doubt that regardless of whether one is elect or reprobate, he has the duty to hope in Christ—duty that does not hinge on whether his ability matches his responsibility. It is also a duty to hope always, not just one time. The issue is: what sort of faith is it that supposedly apprehends Christ as the ultimate object of devotion, that could then turn from him or lose interest in Him? Our Reformed conviction is that the defect must be in the faith that allegedly took hold on Him. At the root it was a mixed-faith, a diluted faith, a false-faith. For there certainly was no defect in Him, or in His profession of love for the sinner.

Christ continues—as He did with Judas—to exhibit that perfect love to the lost in the gospel. He knew all the while He was on earth—better than Judas himself—that disciple was a devil, and the son of perdition. The same love that conquered the blindness of Eleven, making it possible for them to fulfill their responsibility, did not attempt and fail to master Judas. Judas' protests of commitment to Jesus did not spring from the same source as the others. And neither does any apostate have "work of faith, labor of love, patience of hope," 1 Thessalonians 1:3. It doesn't matter what it looks like, or what temporal or spiritual good it does; it isn't genuine. It doesn't matter if we cannot tell the difference in the event. God looks on the heart, and He knows.

For OUR part, as we look not at others but at ourselves, we follow the principle of obedience to Scripture's admonitions to "work, labor, patience," to strive, to examine, to be diligent; knowing that unless we make use of our Spouse's gifts, we will lack the assurance that comes from him--and could (since the future is opaque to us) end up a castaway, as even the Apostle Paul warned himself. For is not that neglect the essence of the faithlessness that ultimately reveals the apostate? Those who are but outwardly in covenant with God, are inward adulterers all the time, even from the day of their betrothal.

It just does not do to say that Jesus prays ineffectually for those he does not save to the uttermost, Hebrews 7:25; as if His purpose in prayer was even a single degree at variance from His Father's to give saving grace.

Believers are not mere punctiliar Christians. The Spirit waters and feeds our repentance and faith through the means of grace. These means keep us alive in the faith and are not just a means for starting us in the faith. God commands our ongoing attention to our faith, that we examine ourselves to make sure our faith is real. God also provides that which He commands, ordaining the ends as well as the means to the ends, even the believer's salvation. Augustine's little prayer sums it up: "O Lord, grant what Thou dost command and command what Thou dost desire." Pelagius never grasped what Augustine meant, failing to see that no one can please God unless God helps us in some manner to meet His requirements.

As Scripture teaches, enduring to the end, holding fast to the faith, abiding in Christ and His Word are essential to one's salvation. If these do not exist a professing Christian cannot expect to be saved.

But, and this is important, some hold that a true believer may not persevere and can be ultimately lost. Instead I believe that the true believer will in fact persevere. At this point, some would then ask, "Well, if the believer will persevere then why do the Scriptures contain admonitions or conditions for salvation?" In reply I answer, as noted above, God ordains the end but also the means to the end.

One of those means of God to His final glory is the perseverance of the Christian in faith to the end. I understand that one way God effects this means of perseverance in the saved is by admonishing them of the consequences of not persevering to the end and the conditions for salvation. I take these admonishments seriously. These admonishments stir up the faithful.

An example might help explain this. Consider Paul about to be shipwrecked in Acts 27. We read that God had assured Paul that no one would lose their life in that shipwreck. Yet, despite this clear assurance from God, Paul admonishes those on the ship that unless the persons trying to leave by the lifeboat remain on board, those on the ship would not be saved. Note here that the Apostle was assured of their salvation, he knew the means of their salvation, and his warning produced the desired result. Such is the purpose of the "warning" verses, not that one's re-birth can be lost, but that one is stirred up and perseveres.

Speaking under the inspiration of the Spirit, Peter tells us that those who are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God" and "begotten again unto a lively hope" are "kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:2-5).

Indeed, God's almighty power preserves the true believer, who will be stirred up in their walk of faith (sanctification) from many of the "warning" verses in Scripture, so that he or she receives that final and complete salvation that will be revealed at the eschaton. It can be no other way, for the work of salvation is God's work and God's work does not fail.

I realize this is very different from Rome's position, which blurs the single forensic act of justification with ongoing sanctification all confused with "progressive justification", resulting in what some refer to as a sacramental treadmill, as illustrated here.

AMR
 

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illogical

you are saying there is no OSAS

then you are saying there IS such a thing as OSAS
You need to read more carefully if you think OSAS and perseverance of the saints are identical. They are not. See also my post above with more details.


No, a man cannot be un-born again

But a born again person CAN go to Hell (if he falls away from following Christ, commits mortal sin and does not repent before the End)
This is a grievous error that makes God to be impotent.

A regenerated person ("born again") cannot fall away, else that person was never regenerated by the power of the Spirit in the first place. Our Lord's high priestly prayer makes it clear that none that were given to Him by the Father will be lost to Him. If they are lost, they were not given in the first place. The indwelling of the Spirit in the believer is not keeping house with the devil for that divided house cannot stand. Those in Hell have no indwelt Spirit. So, per your notions, the Spirit was driven out of the one so "born again" now residing in Hell. Accordingly, losing the indwelt presence of the Spirit means that the forces of darkness were more powerful that the force of Light. May it never be!

There are four possible positions with respect to one's assurance of salvation.

Position One: There are people who are unsaved and know that they are unsaved. These people are aware of the enmity they have in their hearts toward God and clearly want nothing to do with Christ as their Savior. They are bold to proclaim that they do not need Christ. Such people are often openly hostile to the gospel.

Position Two: There are people who are saved but do not know they are saved. These people are actually in a state of grace but are uncertain of it. Perhaps they are wrestling with sin in their lives and doubt their own salvation because of a troubled conscience. In this group are those who have not yet made certain that they are among the elect.

Position Three: There are people who are saved and know that they are saved. This is the group who are certain of their election and calling. They have a clear and sound understanding of what salvation requires and know they have met the requirements. They have believed the testimony of the Holy Spirit when He witnessed to their spirits that they are the children of God (Romans 8:16).

Position Four: There are people who are not saved but confidently believe that they are saved. These people have assurance of salvation without salvation. Their assurance is a false assurance.

Because it is possible to have a false assurance of salvation, how do we know if we are in group three or group four?

To answer that we must look more closely at group four and ask how it is possible to have a false sense of assurance.

The easiest way to have a false assurance of salvation is to have a false doctrine of salvation. For example, if a person holds to a universalist view of salvation, he or she may reason as follows:

Every person is saved.
I am a person.
Therefore, I am saved.​

Or, one may think,

I can lose my salvation, after all, justification is a “process”.
I perform works to meet the requirements of this “process”.
Therefore, I am saved…by my works.​

Because the person's doctrine is faulty, his or her assurance has no firm basis.

Another way that people falsely assure themselves of salvation is by believing that they will get to heaven by trying to live a good life. Those who think they are living a good enough life to satisfy the demands of a holy God are only deluding themselves into thinking they are saved.

But what if a person has a sound doctrinal knowledge of salvation? Is it still possible to have false assurance? We must answer yes.

A person might think he has saving faith but not really possess it. (Professing but not possessing.) The test for authentic assurance is twofold. On the one hand, we must examine our own hearts to see if we have true faith in Christ. We must see whether or not we have any genuine love for the Biblical Christ. For we know such love for Him would be impossible without regeneration.

Second, we must examine the fruit of our faith. We do not need perfect fruit to have assurance, but there must be some evidence of the fruit of obedience for our profession of faith to be credible. If no fruit is present, then no faith is present, for that very fruit is wrought by God and He is not a God who fails. Accordingly, where saving faith is found, fruit of that faith is also always found. We must also understand that not all trees bear the same amount of good fruit, but they do in fact bear good fruit. We get into trouble by becoming "fruit inspectors" and measuring one's fruit against another, forgetting the teachings of Scripture concerning the rewards in heaven based upon our walk of faith on earth. Everyone's cup in heaven is full, it's just that some cups are larger than others'.

Finally, we seek our assurance from the Word of God through which the Holy Spirit bears witness to our spirit that we are His children.

AMR
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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OK, then what do you find to disagree with in the following quote I posted earlier:

Catholics believe in salvation by grace alone, yet grace must not be resisted, either before justification (by remaining in unbelief) or after (by engaging in serious sin). Read carefully 1 Corinthians 6, Galatians 5, and Ephesians 5.

Synergistic soteriological views are contrary to what I believe Scripture clearly teaches. The efficacious saving grace of the Spirit is not resistible, for all called by God will be saved by God (monergistic soteriology). God is not impotent. As for the egregious notion that one can lose one's salvation, see my posts above. I have read the Scripture so cited carefully. Please point me to where Rome has actually exegeted these these same passages declaring them De Fide and I will happily interact with Rome's careful exegesis. You cannot. :AMR1:

Second, the Bible nowhere uses the expressions "justification by faith alone" or "salvation by faith alone." The first was directly the invention of Luther; the second his by implication. Luther inserted "alone" into the German translation of Romans 3:28 to give credence to his new doctrine.
The Scripture also does not mention "the Trinity", but is Rome complaining? Really, now, is this the way you want to steer the discussion?

Are you a member of the Roman Catholic Church?

When will Romanists tire of trotting out this Luther canard? Such is the danger of buying into Rome's marketing of their own "histories". Do not take the bait.

Rather than dissect this howler from Rome, I refer you here and here. See also Robert Newton Flew's The Catholicity of Protestantism, Appendix 2.

AMR
 

SaulToPaul 2

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If you would obey Jesus' teachings, you would have understanding about Moses' seat.

The temple was still standing when Jesus said that, and the Pharisees and teachers of the law enforced the law concerning the temple.



If you would obey Jesus, you would have understanding about when Jesus was crucified and how the old law with its rules and regulations were nailed to the cross.

So, you admit you don't obey everything "Jesus" says?
 

republicanchick

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You need to read more carefully if you think OSAS and perseverance of the saints are identical. They are not. See also my post above with more details.


This is a grievous error that makes God to be impotent.

AMR

running out of time, so will answer just this. Probably all that follows this part of your post is just a lot of rationalizing of your position

well, your position is WRONG. And don't put it off on God.. or assume that I am putting it off on God.. when confronted with the truth that born-again people DO go to Hell. Saying that this truth does something to make God impotent is ridiculous..

I have read things written by protestants who say the same thing (that many Christians go to Hell) and have other evidence to prove it. But more important than that is my own experience (which I will refrain from going into details about due to not wanting people in my personal business)

I know that born again people go to Hell... and probably in huge numbers. Jesus said that FEW make it.. He didn't say that if you are born again, you will make it regardless of the sin you commit.

Jesus never made an exception in Mt 25:31-46 either. He said that if you do evil to His people [w/ no repentance], you will go to Hell... no exemption made for those who "accept Him as personal savior".. no exemption for anyone.

this is what happens when people are not in Christ's Church: they begin to fall... their minds fall... they lose sight of God and who he really is and begin to believe lies.. (osas)

of course even people IN the Church experience this falling away... That is really amazing 2 me.. that the ones who should know... geez... whatever


+
 

Angel4Truth

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Most protestants believe they are born again. This is self claim, not Jesus' judgment.

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Looks like meshak is wrong. Whats new.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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I know that born again people go to Hell... and probably in huge numbers. Jesus said that FEW make it.. He didn't say that if you are born again, you will make it regardless of the sin you commit.

Perhaps you do not understand regeneration (re-birth) as I doubt your view of "born again" is even acceptable within Romanism, esp. given Purgatory. :AMR:

AMR
 

meshak

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Most anti-Trinitarians believe they are Christians. This is self-claim, not Jesus' judgment.


Christian means Jesus' follower. they don't claim to be saved or born again or elect. There is a big difference.

I am not talking about TOL non-trins. Most non-trins here are pro-military and claim to be saved too.

they are very different from organized non-trin churches.

Ok, Mormons are pro-military and they are exception.
 
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