ECT Why shouldn't I convert from Evangelical Protestant to Catholic?

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
It is found under your nose, in your heart, by reading Jesus' teachings and doing exactly as Jesus says.


Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

Matthew 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

Matthew 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.



Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier mattters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
 

republicanchick

New member
I have to admit this is something that concerns me. I am currently active in a very vibrant evangelical church. One thing I appreciate about the Evangelical churches is the focus on the salvation experience and a personal relationship with Christ. Believer's baptism, (rather than infant baptism) and the expectation of a born-again experience at a certain point in time encourages believers to examine whether or not they have made a commitment to The Lord. It seems possible that individuals who have gone through baptism, first communion and confirmation as children may assume that these rituals and good behavior, rather than a heart commitment to follow Christ, are what Christianity is all about. Of course the same danger exists in Protestant churches, and I'm sad to say that not all of my own children, who were raised in the church, are following The Lord today.

The Church is needed. Jesus did not establish a Chruch and structure it a certain way for no reason. He knew people would fall away

We need the sacraments, most especially Eucharist, the Holy Mass

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Cruciform

New member
I know what Catholics do. I was a Catholic for a long time. Catholics do not obey Jesus. Jesus says do not, and Catholics do exactly what Jesus says not to do.
Not only is GT not a Catholic, he's no longer even a Christian in general, having rejected the central Christian doctrines of the Trinity and Incarnation. Thus, he's hardly qualified to pronounce upon any doctrinal matter whatsoever, and so may simply be ignored on that basis alone.

See Post #1522 above.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
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God's Truth

New member
Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

Matthew 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

Matthew 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

If you would obey Jesus' teachings, you would have understanding about Moses' seat.

The temple was still standing when Jesus said that, and the Pharisees and teachers of the law enforced the law concerning the temple.

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier mattters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

If you would obey Jesus, you would have understanding about when Jesus was crucified and how the old law with its rules and regulations were nailed to the cross.
 

republicanchick

New member
people who say they were once Catholic

weren't

Anyone who knows what I know would NEVER leave


How do I know that?

I was outside the Church for years and years... miserable... believed lies... lonely... confused.. etc...

And then... well, u know the rest...



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God's Truth

New member
Not only is GT not a Catholic, he's no longer even a Christian in general, having rejected the central Christian doctrines of the Trinity and Incarnation. Thus, he's hardly qualified to pronounce upon any doctrinal matter whatsoever, and so may simply be ignored on that basis alone.

See Post #1522 above.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

If you want God's Truth, if you want to be saved, there is only one way to do it, and that is to get Jesus' teachings and obey them.
 

republicanchick

New member
Since God is the Author and Finisher of our faith, man cannot fall away from eternal salvation. Once a man has been born-again (regenerated) he cannot be unborn-again. Furthermore, the elect of God will definitely manifest evidences of their salvation by means of good works. AMR

illogical

you are saying there is no OSAS

then you are saying there IS such a thing as OSAS

No, a man cannot be un-born again

But a born again person CAN go to Hell (if he falls away from following Christ, commits mortal sin and does not repent before the End)


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republicanchick

New member
If you want God's Truth, if you want to be saved, there is only one way to do it, and that is to get Jesus' teachings and obey them.

no, there is another thing you need to do

You need to spend time with Jesus because only his awesome Presence can do.. what no one else can..

And his Presence is found only in the Church He founded


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Cruciform

New member
Jesus is not in the wafer.
Here is what Scripture actually teaches.

There is no such thing as Adoration in the Bible.
SolaScriptura.jpg



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
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User Name

Greatest poster ever
Banned
Jesus is not in the wafer.

1 Corinthians 10:16
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

1 Corinthians 11:27
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.​

Matthew 26:26, Mark 14:22, John 6:51.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
In the East, as much as in the West, the dominant church teaches salvation by means of transformation. The EO, like yourself, teach eventually there is a subsuming of that human nature of ours in something else, the expectation of theosis. This is simply not just another way of explaining our doctrine of final sanctification or glorification.

I so wish that this were true...

But the sad truth is, that even though we were created by our Creator to live eternally in union and one-ness with Him, the number of people who actually "get there" is, statistically, miniscule, and it is these that Christ makes into pillars of the Faith, for they are the ones overcoming sin...

The actual expectation is simply lifelong confrontation with our sinfulness, and if God decides to give us a more advanced union with Him, it is His call, and is not needed for the Salvation of our souls...

Eastern Orthodoxy (EO) does not give the legal aspect of salvation its due.

We do not make it the centerpiece of the display, for sure...

EO downplays it and gives room for Gnostic philosophy to penetrate the church's categories.

Gnostics do not do well with askesis and humility... I have had several approach me to try to lure me into their elitism of spiritual embetterment... I ask them to attend an Orthodox Service and report back what "they spiritually see"... So far, no takers... They flee...

EO ends up with salvation as more of an attainment (a level, theosis) for our persons to arrive unto, rather than a rightly re-ordered relationship of creature to Creator.

Right relationship of creature to Creator IS the centerpiece of Orthodoxy... Theosis is its by-product, sometimes... Theosis is not a permanent state of being, btw... It is always temporary... A few seconds, a few minutes, a few hours... Maybe even a few days... That's it - Then back to reality transformed wherein God is making all things new...

The right relation for us means salvation, now, regardless of the pre or or post estate glory.

Now is eternity... But Salvation is the Gift of God... Now...

Maturity in Christ's Faith entails the process of maturing, growing from a babe at Baptism to a mature adult in sainthood... Most of us barely make it past the babe stage... And there are stages along the way... And there is not upper end limit, because God is not limited... God, you see, IS the upper end...

So yes, there are degrees of salvation, and all are based on the degrees of maturity we have attained, and this on our efforts and the extension, or its absence, of God's Grace...The process is synergistic... Your efforts are rewarded, but according to God's will, and not according to human understanding...

The right relation is defined by being "in Christ," and that is fundamentally federal theology.

Here is our fork in the road, for to us, only Christ, and not ANY federal theology, can enter a person into Himself, and this He does in the Church baptizing those not yet in Christ INTO Christ... For as the Apostle writes, we are baptized into Christ, and this BY Christ, at the HANDS of the SERVANTS Christ... As Paul was by Ananias, and the Gentiles with Cornelius were at the hands of Peter...

Contrary to EO, that ontological transference from one kind of humanity to another is not something we are waiting for, once theosis of EO dogma has occurred.

This is a misconstrual... The "ontological transference" as you call it occurs in Baptism INTO Christ BY the Body of Christ, the Church... That constitutes an INITIATION INTO the Body of Christ that then takes the walking of the walk, "running the race set before us" keeping vigilant to the end...

Rather it is a very present reality, 2 Cor. 3:18: "And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another."

Yes, into the same image, from one degree of glory to another...

He says it differently when he writes: These also he glorified... And you can see from your passage that glorification is a process too...

This bespeaks the final stages of discipleship in Christ past justification, which is also a process...

For instance, let's say we have a repentant thief, baptized into Christ, living a repentant life and desiring glorification... And let's say that he has not stolen anything, not even a pencil, since baptism... And he asks god for glorification, and it does not come... What can he possibly lack? [speaking only in terms of thievery for sake of brevity]... And the answer may be that he involuntarily has eyes that seek out what would be easy to steal, or thinks sometimes how easy it would be, or maybe he is imagining elaborate pilferings during his prayer time, or whatever... There is always SOMETHING yet to do... And if it is the involuntary movements of the eyes, he has to attack that in order to mature... And such things can take years for God to heal them... And He may NOT heal them in this life... After all, He GAVE Paul that thorn in the flesh, to help him with humility...

So this IS Christian Life - Not bouncing along from glorious glory to glorious glory, but an ongoing struggle in prayer without ceasing and vigils and labors and alms-giving and overcoming our personal weaknesses and attaining virtues...

And the fruit of that passage is the shadow of a Saint healing the sick, and I am not seeing any of that happening among the Reformed...

But St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco, who built the All Holy Virgin Cathedral on Geary Street, who did not own a bed and was the Russian Bishop of the West in the '60s, used to go out at night and walk in his bare feet to, hospitals and other places, as God would direct, and he was well known to hospital staff... and he padded in his dirty white robe with a staff and a skoufi into the ER recovery wing of a major hospital, and was greeted by the nursing station and walked by a room with an open door, and stopped, and looked in.

Inside was an old Russian Jewish woman breathing her last on a bed, emaciated and feverish, labored in breath, and gasping. And four generations of Jews, her family, who loved her much, for she was very beloved to them, had assembled at her bed, for the doctors had said she would not last the night, and all the family were weeping...

So Vladika John stepped toward the open door, cupped his hands to his mouth bull-horn style, and yelled out in a loud Russian LISP [yes, he had a speech impediment],

"GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST! GLORY FOREVER!

Now the Jews inside were VERY religious, and very pious, and very faithful Hassidim Jews, very Traditional... And they ALL spoke Russian... And one of them, a balding man in his early fifties, flew into a rage and ran to the door, and glared at the short little scraggly-haired man padding off on down the hall, and stormed into the Nurses Station...

"Did you see that???" he demanded... And they said: "Oh yes, that is Vladika John - He comes here a lot..."

"I want the Hospital Administer on the line in 10 minutes!" he yelled... And they replied: "Sir, it is 3:15 in the morning and he is not taking calls. If you would leave your name..."

"I SAID 10 minutes... IF you do NOT have him ON THE PHONE in 10 minutes, he WILL NOT BE the Hospital Administrator in the morning. I am the Chairman of the Board of Directors of this Hospital. Do YOU understand me?"

And she said "Yes Sir - I will call him right away."

And the Chairman let out a little sob, and said "We are all trying to say good-bye to my 87 year old mother, and he was very rude and he is not to be permitted to ever come into the hospital again. Now... I will be in the room with my Mother and the family when you get him on the phone. Thank-you."

And he marched back to her room...

And found her sitting up and talking and laughing with the family, in perfect health, and she lived another 5 years...

Jes' sayin'...


Thank-you - I understand the author's evaluation...

It is, as he allows, shallow - More along the lines of first impressions...

He does have a good grasp of its surface appeal, however...

He did not mention the vision of children piously bowing before the Lord at His Icon, and lighting a prayer candle for a loved one, and praying for them, and then making the sign of the cross...

An Orthodox Church is a Holy Place...

Arsenios
 
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