ECT Why shouldn't I convert from Evangelical Protestant to Catholic?

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Arsenios asks, regarding Pope Francis:

In his youth, he was a bouncer for a club. He spent most of his time as a bishop, frequenting the slums and disreputable neighborhoods of the cities. He even has told his bishops that they as shepherds should "smell of the sheep", and tend to the down-and-out among them.

He told the Italian government that they had freedom to investigate the Vatican bank, which had been sometimes used by criminals to hide from the law. He dressed down the Curia, telling them to stop politicking and start being priests again. He even told them that they needed to stop being such sourpusses.

And he let all sorts of sinners know that the Church is here for them.

How disreputable. A friend of tax collectors and sinners. Wouldn't you expect better than that from the Bishop of Rome? WFTH-I

Don't forget his long involvement in the South American-based global child sex-slave trading "community", and many other such unsavory practices.

Most refuse to research the dirty facts.

 

[The Barbarian]

Don't forget his long involvement in the South American-based global child sex-slave trading "community", and many other such unsavory practices.

Most refuse to research the dirty facts.

I notice you haven't bothered to show any facts. I think we all know why.

 

[Arsenios]

Not all Orthodox churches are in schism from the Catholic Church.

None are, actually...

It is the Latin Communion that is in schism
from the Communions of the rest of the Apostolic Sees
of the one Apostolic Church of Christ
All of which are in communion with each another...

But not with the Latins...

Eastern Catholic Churches are in full communion with the whole Catholic Church. While they accept the canonical authority of the See of Rome, they retain their distinctive liturgical rites, laws, customs and traditional devotions and have their own theological emphases. Terminology may vary: for instance, diocese and eparchy, vicar general and protosyncellus, confirmation and chrismation are respectively Western and Eastern terms for the same realities. The mysteries (sacraments) of baptism and chrismation are generally administered, according to the ancient tradition of the Church, one immediately after the other. Infants who are baptized and chrismated are also given the Eucharist.

These Churches were established during the crusades, as a deception, to be Orthodox in appearance but in Communion with Rome... They were planted in Jerusalem and Constantinople and elsewhere... Perhaps the Latins thought we just liked "Eastern Rite", as you like to call it... So that by giving us the "aesthetic" of the "Rite" perhaps they thought they could incorporate us back under their authoritarian Pope... They are called the "Uniate Churches of Rome", and we do not at all extend our Communion to them ever... Nor do we receive their Communion... Ever...

My Spiritual Father entered into monasticism [with a brother] in one of their monasteries in California long ago, and when he asked what they could study to learn the Faith, he was told by the Abbot to simply study diligently all the books of the Eastern Orthodox Faith, because, he said, the Uniates are identical in every respect to the EOC except one, that they also have communion with the Latin Pope... "We are just like the Eastern Orthodox" he told him. And after he left, my Father turned to his brother and asked him: "If they are just LIKE the Eastern Orthodox Faith, why should we not BECOME Eastern Orthodox?" And after some time, being unable to answer that question, they departed into the EOC under the Russians in San Francisco's Holy Virgin Cathedral...

So to answer you more directly, it is not the Rite that determines a Church to be EOC... Any fool can adopt any Rite... It is the Communion of the Faithful... THAT is the key... It is what Rome desires... It is what She cannot have until she repents of Her false elevation of Her Patriarch [the Pope of Rome] above the Body of Christ on earth, and all the heresies that ensued consequent to that, including Papal Infallibility and the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin...

Arsenios

 

[Sheila B]

Don't forget his long involvement in the South American-based global child sex-slave trading "community", and many other such unsavory practices.

Most refuse to research the dirty facts.

Most not only do not want to research, but think themselves above such contact, even to try to snatch them from the fire...

But Jesus communed with the prostitutes and tax collectors... they entered the Kingdom before the "righteous" (righteous in their own eyes anyway).

 

[The Barbarian]

The Church and those other entities in communion with the Church, consider "uniate" to be a disparaging term. Those churches prefer "Eastern Catholic."

Clearly, we can't agree, which is what continues to separate Catholic and Orthodox traditions. I should say that I use "Catholic" and "Orthodox" as commonly used terms, not as adjectives, to avoid offending anyone; I'm not saying your fellows are not Catholics and I'm not saying that the Church is not orthodox.

There are two sides to a schism, of course. And the Church has rightly acknowledged that there were faults on both sides. I'm not sure what the Orthodox churches say about that. Two of the Eastern Catholic churches never broke away from Rome at all, the remaining 20 or so re-established communion with Rome at different times.

 

[Arsenios]

If I were convinced that this were the truth, I'd seek membership in Eastern Orthodoxy today. But, the facts is, that Polycarp traveled to Rome at great suffering due to his advanced age and the difficulties of travel of the times... in order to confer with the successor of Peter's Chair about the alteration of the celebration of Passover to a regular Sunday rather than the ancient practice of the Moon's cycles to determine the exact date, as the Hebrews did and still do.

I love Polycarp... The Popes of that time were fully Orthodox, and more, that they were extremely and disproportionately Saints in the Church, and Martyrs... Indeed, to be appointed Pope was to set one's self into martyrdom, so evil was Rome and her emperors...

This does not make the Latins the Head of the Body of Christ Who is Himself Her Head on earth... It merely means that Rome occupied the primary place in the ranking of the Churches, the Holy Sees... And so Polycarp would of course come to them to sort out the calendar issue of dating Pascha in the Church...

This witness of Polycarp's travel and the outcome: it is told that the Holy Father gave Polycarp's diocese a rare and unique privelelge of celebrating the ancient way, due to his reverence for "Polycarp's age and tears" since Polycarp (who grew up literally at the Apostle's feet it is said) had the witness of John the Apostle who did it the ancient way
... yet "Peter had spoken" and it was accepted by all of ancient Christendom...

Yes, such was the honor of the See of Peter at that time...

You must remember that there is not height from which one cannot fall... Lucifer, the most Glorified Carrier of the Light, Himself fell from the highest heavenly pinnacle to the dark and evil spirit of Satan and The Accuser that he is today...

Likewise was Rome the most holy and exalted of the Sees of the Christian Faith for the first thousand years, living in terrible persecutions and afflictions and Glory... She was First among Equals, and fell when She came into the secular power of the German Bishops who took Her over at the end of that first millennium...

Arsenios

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Most not only do not want to research, but think themselves above such contact, even to try to snatch them from the fire...

But Jesus communed with the prostitutes and tax collectors... they entered the Kingdom before the "righteous" (righteous in their own eyes anyway).

By his "involvement", I wasn't referring to Christian efforts to minister to the sex slave-traders, but his long participation in the slave-trade himself.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

I love Polycarp... The Popes of that time were fully Orthodox, and more, that they were extremely and disproportionately Saints in the Church, and Martyrs... Indeed, to be appointed Pope was to set one's self into martyrdom, so evil was Rome and her emperors...

This does not make the Latins the Head of the Body of Christ Who is Himself Her Head on earth... It merely means that Rome occupied the primary place in the ranking of the Churches, the Holy Sees... And so Polycarp would of course come to them to sort out the calendar issue of dating Pascha in the Church...

Yes, such was the honor of the See of Peter at that time...

You must remember that there is not height from which one cannot fall... Lucifer, the most Glorified Carrier of the Light, Himself fell from the highest heavenly pinnacle to the dark and evil spirit of Satan and The Accuser that he is today...

Likewise was Rome the most holy and exalted of the Sees of the Christian Faith for the first thousand years, living in terrible persecutions and afflictions and Glory... She was First among Equals, and fell when She came into the secular power of the German Bishops who took Her over at the end of that first millennium...

Arsenios

Exactly and historically correct on all counts.

 

[Arsenios]

The Church and those other entities in communion with the Church, consider "uniate" to be a disparaging term. Those churches prefer "Eastern Catholic."

Then you concede their origins... Good...

The Latin Clergy disparaged them exceedingly a hundred years ago and less... Seeing only the celibate priesthood as truly worthy of God, and the fornicating married uniate priests as beneath them...

How many Eastern Catholic Bishops have there been in the Curia or made Cardinals?

Clearly, we can't agree, which is what continues to separate Catholic and Orthodox traditions. I should say that I use "Catholic" and "Orthodox" as commonly used terms, not as adjectives, to avoid offending anyone; I'm not saying your fellows are not Catholics and I'm not saying that the Church is not orthodox.

Understood...

There are two sides to a schism, of course.

Of course...

And the Church has rightly acknowledged that there were faults on both sides.

It is not the business of one side to confess the faults of the other...

I'm not sure what the Orthodox churches say about that.

The issue does not revolve around historical at-faults, nor resolve by them... The issues are in the present... Here and now...

NO CREATED HUMAN BEING IS THE HEAD OF CHRIST ON EARTH...

It is really that simple... No matter how holy... No matter how unholy...

Until the Latins concede this basic truth, there will be NO reconciliation...

Two of the Eastern Catholic churches never broke away from Rome at all, the remaining 20 or so re-established communion with Rome at different times.

And some returned to the fold of Orthodoxy... None of which is here nor there...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

By his "involvement", I wasn't referring to Christian efforts to minister to the sex slave-traders, but his long participation in the slave-trade himself.

As a cleric?

What does he say of it?

What has he done about it?

Arsenios

 

[Jedidiah]

...It is not the business of one side to confess the faults of the other...

Well it would be kind of silly to not confess that your opponent is wrong, and yet remain separate from them.

What are they supposed to say? "We...just don't like them" ?

:chuckle:

 

[Arsenios]

Most not only do not want to research, but think themselves above such contact, even to try to snatch them from the fire...

But Jesus communed with the prostitutes and tax collectors... they entered the Kingdom before the "righteous" (righteous in their own eyes anyway).

Indeed the Bride of Christ on earth is a harlot - Each and all of us, unfaithful to Him Who is "A Jealous God..." It always bugged me to hear of the OT Prophet whom God commanded to marry a harlot - And how he was faithful to her, and she was not to him at all... Until Christ met Photini at the Well - 5 husbands and living with the man to which she was not married, and of a tribe the Jews would not even talk to, the Samaritans, which only kept the first 5 books of the OT... And He converted her, and thereby "married" her, because she became a Saint in the Church, and an important one at that...

I am not put off by any dark Papal history if it is true, unless it is unconfessed and unrepented... What I AM dismayed by is the fact that kids coming out of RC Seminaries and into the Priesthood are not taught the first thing about repentance except will power and its associated thought processes... There is no Grace in THAT...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

​

Well it would be kind of silly to not confess that your opponent is wrong, and yet remain separate from them.

What are they supposed to say? "We...just don't like them" ?

:chuckle:

I have a friend whose mother, the wife of a priest, may she rest in peace, would go to confession and confess all the sins of everyone ELSE in the Church...

Sigh...

Gotta run!

Arsenios

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

As a cleric?

Yes

What does he say of it?

Nothing.

What has he done about it?

Arsenios

Nothing.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Then you concede their origins... Good...

The Latin Clergy disparaged them exceedingly a hundred years ago and less... Seeing only the celibate priesthood as truly worthy of God, and the fornicating married uniate priests as beneath them...

How many Eastern Catholic Bishops have there been in the Curia or made Cardinals?

Understood...

Of course...

It is not the business of one side to confess the faults of the other...

The issue does not revolve around historical at-faults, nor resolve by them... The issues are in the present... Here and now...

NO CREATED HUMAN BEING IS THE HEAD OF CHRIST ON EARTH...

It is really that simple... No matter how holy... No matter how unholy...

Until the Latins concede this basic truth, there will be NO reconciliation...

And some returned to the fold of Orthodoxy... None of which is here nor there...

Arsenios

Amen and amen.

 

[Arsenios]

Amen and amen.

Well, you have to remember that I was banned from Catholic Answers Forum for these kinds of questions, and then ran into one of the owners of it while doing a job for her where I live, and she was eager to engage me until I managed to get it across to her who I was, if ever so obliquely... And she became very quiet, respectful, and kind... Rome is starting to "get it" that the opposition to them in Orthodoxy is not that easily answered, and that approaching it as was tried here, as conflict resolution 101, where both sides admit they were toads and worse in their behavior [which is true], does not answer the really hard matters of dogmatics and Holy Tradition...

When these matters were "discussed" at the Council of Florence, the Latins were dealing with us from a position of great worldly power, and they used it unsparingly in a manner that ended up in capitulation on the part of the Orthodox delegates just so they could go home... They were virtual prisoners there, with no way to leave, living in unheated buildings in the winter with starvation rations and inadequate clothing and bedding, in sickness and old age and misery, while the Turks were massing to over-run Constantinople, and Rome would not even return them home without an agreement... Nor would their captors permit the Orthodox to present their arguments... All the while attending the Council meetings well fed and richly and warmly clothed and well rested in warm quarters...

And in this, they felt they were simply breaking the will of the apostatic Orthodox who had broken away from them and their rightful rule over the Church... In their eyes, they were doing us a favor even if against our will... We chose Turkish domination instead of bowing to the Pope when the penitent delegates returned home, and the one who would NOT sign was pursued by Papal agents for trial and execution had to make his way overland and underground back to Constantinople, where he was acclaimed as a Saint... St Mark of Ephesus...

TO THE OTHER afflictions which the Orthodox delegation suffered in Florence was added the death of the Patriarch of Constantinople. The Patriarch was found dead in his room.

On the table lay (supposedly) his testament, Extrema Sententia, consisting in all of some lines in which he declared that he accepted everything that the Church of Rome confesses. And then: "In like manner I acknowledge the Holy Father of Fathers, the Supreme Pontiff and Vicar of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Pope of Old Rome. Likewise, I acknowledge purgatory. In affirmation of this, I affix my signature."

There is no doubt whatever that Patriarch Joseph did not write this document. The German scholar Frommann, who made a detailed investigation of the "Testament" of Patriarch Joseph, says: "This document is so Latinized and corresponds so little to the opinion expressed by the Patriarch several days before, that its spuriousness is evident." [1] The ''Testament" appears in the history of the Council of Florence quite late; contemporaries of the Council knew nothing of it.​

(From: [COLOR="DarkRed"]http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/stmark.aspx[/COLOR])

So that even though it is true that this previous Pontiff did act in an egregious manner, we really do not desire to have the Pope apologize for his predessor's bad behavior - He was simply doing what was right in his eyes... We want the dogmatic matter of Who is the Head of the Body of Christ on earth and in the heavens acknowledged and resolved in Rome confessing that Christ IS the Head of His Own Body on this earth and in the Heavens... Without that confession, there will be no reunion... And with it, there still will be MUCH unravelling for the Latins to do of the dogmatic errors they have accrued in their thousand years of apostasy...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

As to the OP, the answer is yes, you should convert from the Evangellical Protestant Church to the Catholic Church... The question is, which one? The Latin Communion, or the Eastern Orthodox Communion? The Latins will, before a hundred more years pass by, be solidly Orthodox again... Their heresy cannot stand open discussion. NO MAN is the Head of Christ's Body except Christ Himself the God-man... It really is that simple...

Arsenios

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Well, you have to remember that I was banned from Catholic Answers Forum for these kinds of questions, and then ran into one of the owners of it while doing a job for her where I live, and she was eager to engage me until I managed to get it across to her who I was, if ever so obliquely... And she became very quiet, respectful, and kind... Rome is starting to "get it" that the opposition to them in Orthodoxy is not that easily answered, and that approaching it as was tried here, as conflict resolution 101, where both sides admit they were toads and worse in their behavior [which is true], does not answer the really hard matters of dogmatics and Holy Tradition...

When these matters were "discussed" at the Council of Florence, the Latins were dealing with us from a position of great worldly power, and they used it unsparingly in a manner that ended up in capitulation on the part of the Orthodox delegates just so they could go home... They were virtual prisoners there, with no way to leave, living in unheated buildings in the winter with starvation rations and inadequate clothing and bedding, in sickness and old age and misery, while the Turks were massing to over-run Constantinople, and Rome would not even return them home without an agreement... Nor would their captors permit the Orthodox to present their arguments... All the while attending the Council meetings well fed and richly and warmly clothed and well rested in warm quarters...

And in this, they felt they were simply breaking the will of the apostatic Orthodox who had broken away from them and their rightful rule over the Church... In their eyes, they were doing us a favor even if against our will... We chose Turkish domination instead of bowing to the Pope when the penitent delegates returned home, and the one who would NOT sign was pursued by Papal agents for trial and execution had to make his way overland and underground back to Constantinople, where he was acclaimed as a Saint... John of Ephesus...

So we really do not desire to have the Pope apologize for his predessor's bad behavior - He was simply doing what was right in his eyes... We want the dogmatic matter of Who is the Head of the Body of Christ on earth and in the heavens acknowledged and resolved in Rome confessing that Christ IS the Head of His Own Body on this earth and in the Heavens... Without that confession, there will be no reunion... And with it, there is MUCH unravelling for them to do of errors in their thousand years of apostasy...

Arsenios

It could not be said any more accurately, concisely, cogently, and simply.

A thousand amens. A thousand thousand amens.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

As to the OP, the answer is yes, you should convert from the Evangellical Protestant Church to the Catholic Church... The question is, which one? The Latin Communion, or the Eastern Orthodox Communion? The Latins will, before a hundred more years pass by, be solidly Orthodox again... Their heresy cannot stand open discussion. NO MAN is the Head of Christ's Body except Christ Himself the God-man... It really is that simple...

Arsenios

For the future, I am of the opposite inclination; and I think the more imminent immediate portion of the next century will bring a major apostasy of the Latin hierarchy with ensuing unprecedented persecution of the truly Orthodox along with all professing Christians the world over in accordance with other world powers.

 

[patrick jane]

OP answer - why not ? one of the many denominations must be right. and PPS, i don't know what your last post is saying