ECT Why shouldn't I convert from Evangelical Protestant to Catholic?

Arsenios

Arsenios

Well-known member
Nihilo said:
BTW, did you know that Peter's reign as Roman pontiff remains the longest papal reign even after almost 2,000 years and 260 some odd popes?
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He was martyred in 65AD, yes? And Pentecost was in 34AD, as I recall...

And he stayed in Jerusalem while his brother Iakovos ran the Church in Jerusalem for some years - Say 7 or 8...

That would be 23 or 24 years...

To be elected Patriarch of Rome in the early Church was a death sentence...

As in "Martyrs only need apply..."

Arsenios
 
Arsenios

Arsenios

Well-known member
Nihilo said:
f Saint John the evangelist was the only living Apostle at the time, that wouldn't surprise me in the least. Surely a genuine original Apostle supersedes any Apostle's successor? I don't believe the Catholic faith believes that Saint Linus for instance would be preeminent to a living John, or to any other Apostle who could have survived Saint Peter.
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So you think John received Revelation because he was the Head of Christ on earth? Because his Apostolic status was higher than Rome's?

The truth is that each of those Churches had its own "Angel", or Bishop, and the responsibility for receiving God's directions was to each of them... It was not an authoritarian matter in which they had to obey John or be deposed, as a Patriarch can do with a disobedient priest... It was a matter of communication to them, for each Bishop is acting on behalf of Christ in His Diocese...

Notice Christ did not say: "Depose the Angel if My orders are not carried out", did He? But He said: "I will remove their Lampstand if they do not repent..." And we understand the Lampstand to mean their Church, where the Menora is lit on the Altar... And contra the Latins, it is Christ Himself Who will do the taking away of the Lampstand... And not the Latins, and not John, and not the Apostles...

Christ is the Head of His Body...


Arsenios
 
Arsenios

Arsenios

Well-known member
Nihilo said:
Please provide then the Orthodox teaching on the bishops, priests, and deacons? What is their relationship within the church to the rest of the faithful, and what is their relationship to Christ, apart from the relationship of the catholic church to Christ?
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They are all SERVANTS of the Head Who is Christ...

They live lives of OBEDIENCE to Christ...

They are concerned with the governance of the Household [Ekonomia] of God on earth according to [kata] the whole [holon], the true meaning of katholik, and not according to their own lights, or the lights of their own geographic location... But instead according to the Conciliar Consensus of the Church across two millennia...

When one of them falls from Grace, he become authoritarian and even heretical, thinking himselves to "HAVE THE RULE" over his lessers, the Faithful, and the rest of the Church... These can be troublesome... And this within their own Diocese, or at its head, but when one of them goes TOTALLY ROGUE, and asserts his AUTHORITY over the WHOLE earthly BODY of Christ, we simply excommunicate him from our Communion, where one of them is to this day... The Latin Pontiff...

He has been trying to subjugate us for a thousand years now to his presumed and heretical AUTHORITY exercised from his seat of the Chair of Peter... Given the choice between th POPE and the Muslim Turks, we chose subjugation to the Turks and the long suicide that it has entailed, rather than subjection to Papalist heresy...

So we popped up in Russia for several hundred years, and the Atheists tried to kill us off... Only to return to their Orthodoxy at the hands of the old women... And we made it to the New Land in the Americas, where we are rebuilding from the refugee Churches which came here from all manner of worldly persecutions...

Living out the end times as foretold in Revelation, where the Beast pursues the Woman throughout the world until the end of the Age...

Does your Church really NOT give the Blood of Christ to the laity, but only to the Clergy? And do they really have a separate Body for them as well? We all partake of the SAME CUP of Holy Communion... And I wince when I see "Communion Kits" on sale in religious supply catalogs...

Arsenios
 
Arsenios

Arsenios

Well-known member
Nihilo said:
He [Iakovos, James] was the bishop of the Jerusalem diocese,
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It was the whole Church - There were yet no dioceses... It had scattered some due to persecutions by the Jews...

And James was the Head of the Body of Christ [which was in Jerusalem], where he SERVED the Lord... He was not the Head whom ALL had to OBEY...

And the matter was discussed at length, and boisterously, I should add, and finally Peter's view prevailed, and all agreed, and the Servant of the Lord Iakovos made the official pronouncement: "It seemed good to us and to the Holy Spirit..."

and he was not an Apostle.
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Exactly so - He was the head of the Church at Jerusalem taking care of it there - Peter had better things to do... That is why the Apostles established the Diaconate, to SERVE in administrative tasks, freeing the Apostles to DO their APOSTLESHIP, and not get tied up in lesser ministries...

And his conciliar pronouncement was exactly as Peter had recommended early in the Jerusalem council.
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Yes... As it should have been, and was... Peter recommended, and the Church approved, and the Patriarch pronounced and implemented...

Which is exactly what the Pope, who cherishes his authority, denies, and desires to bring the whole Body of Christ under his own so-called Petrine subjugation...

Listen - Issues arise - They always arise... And the Church has meetings to address them, and even councils, and even Ecumenical Councils... And even these Ecumenical Councils do not have AUTHORITY, but ONLY IF the Church as a whole [catholic] receives their decisions...

And yes, it is messier... Yet look at the unity of the Orthodox over two thousand years... And look at the utter dissaray of the western Church in its thousands of churches which fully qualify as illegitimate children born of a Mother who would not give birth or be corrected by them of the Mother Church of the East...

There you have it...

Arsenios
 
Arsenios

Arsenios

Well-known member
Arsenios said:
The Latins in the West WERE the Catholic Church in the West,
until they became the Papal and Petrine Church of Peter,
thinking in this that they were the ONLY Catholic Church,
not realizing that they had, by this move to Papalism,
DEPARTED FROM the Catholic Church,
which is the Communion of Apostolic Churches...
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Nihilo said:
This is just another way of saying that you're not Catholic. IOW, if you didn't believe this, you'd be Catholic.

Not quite -

I am saying that the Latins departed from the catholicity of the Church by proclaiming themselves to BE the HEAD of Christ on earth...

If the person of Peter had been the ROCK upon which Christ built His Body, the Church on earth, then the next thousand years of Christianity would NOT have been what is IS... Indeed, even Jerusalem would not have had the conciliar meeting it did have, wherein Peter's opinion prevailed, and the Church confirmed, and Iakovos proclaimed, on the matter of the entry of the Gentiles into the Body of Christ... Had it been as you say it has always been, where Peter was the first Pope to whom all other Apostles owed their obedience, then Peter would simply have informed them of his decision regarding the Gentiles, and the appropriate proclamations would have been sent out...

And in 1054, when the German Bishop proclaimed themselves to be in the place of Christ on earth over the whole of the Body of Christ, then would not the rest of the Apostolic Churches have seen the error of their ways, and flocked to the Latins? Or at least some of them? Then, it would have been a local spat between Rome and New Rome, Constantinople... But the fact is that NOT ONE other Apostolic Church came over to Latin Rome's defense when She proclaimed Her SUPERIORITY over all the other Bishops and Patriarchs...

Not even ONE, my friend...

None...

And today, IF Rome desires to rejoin our Communion, She needs to HUMBLE Herself, and repent from Her gross error, and those that followed it as a consequence, and SUBMIT Herself to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church from Whom She has departed these thousand years now...

Arsenios
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Arsenios

Arsenios

Well-known member
Are these accurate quotes from Pope Francis?

"In the Curia there are holy people, truly holy people.
But there is also a current of corruption ...
They speak of a ‘gay lobby', and that is true, it is there.
We need to see what we can do...”

And:

“If someone is gay and is searching for the Lord and has good will, then who am I to judge this behavior?”

And from the Latin Bishop of Mexico: Jose Raul Vera Lopez, in an interview on August 27th, 2013, stated that:
“Homosexuality is not a perversion,
but homophobia is a mental illness.”

Then the Pope:

"Religion has the right to express its opinion in the service of the people,
but God in creation has set us free:
it is not possible to interfere spiritually
in the life of a (homosexual) person.”

Has the Latin Church clearly come down against homosexuality in practice in terms of the Communion of the Latin Church?

They need to have the same zeal as they have for children not yet born in this matter... But the Pope and the Curia seem to be of a very divided mind...

Faith and morals...

Arsenios
 
Arsenios

Arsenios

Well-known member
Cruciform said:
...though not in the same sense.
Therefore, no contradiction is involved and,
thus, no necessary error as you seem to (falsely) assume.
+T+
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No contradiction at all -
You believe in a two headed Christ, by your own admission...
Christ's two different heads have two different SENSES...
No problem...
We can ALL believe THAT!

I mean, who would NOT believe THAT???

And leave my 5 year olds OUT of this discussion!
They will note that the emperor has no clothes...
But what do kids know anyway?

Arsenios
 
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Nihilo

Nihilo

BANNED
Banned
Arsenios said:
No contradiction at all -
You believe in a two headed Christ, by your own admission...
Christ's two different heads have two different SENSES...
No problem...
We can ALL believe THAT!

I mean, who would NOT believe THAT???

And leave my 5 year olds OUT of this discussion!
They will note that the emperor has no clothes...
But what do kids know anyway?

Arsenios
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Another infinite regression. Geez. I'm out.
 
Arsenios

Arsenios

Well-known member
Cruciform said:
Good. Then you have no rational reason to disagree.
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The Faith of Christ is not a rational system, but is a profound Mystery...

Do you pay attention to the Trappists?

Like yourself, I have no idea what you're talking about here.
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It simply means that my 5 year olds would not believe in a two-headed Christ, irreligious of nuances... [eg senses...]

Come to think of it, I am kinda 5 myself!

Arsenios
 
Cruciform

Cruciform

New member
Arsenios said:
It simply means that my 5 year olds would not believe in a two-headed Christ, irreligious of nuances... [eg senses...] Come to think of it, I am kinda 5 myself!
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Indeed.

"Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; be infants in evil, but in thinking be mature" (1 Cor. 14:20).​



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 
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