ECT Why shouldn't I convert from Evangelical Protestant to Catholic?

[Arsenios]

Yes...?

Their ministry is the prayer of inner silence after the tradition of the Desert Fathers... Mother Theresa had this silence, and referred to it as a void without God responding to her at all...

But at least they understand that theology is not words, and that words are but ABOUT theology...

At least in their practice of silent prayer they do...

I don't know what they SAY about their SILENCE...

Arsenios

 

[Cruciform]

Nice, but you don't seem to have any curiosity or matourity.

Your wholly uninformed opinion is noted.

 

[Cruciform]

Their ministry is the prayer of inner silence after the tradition of the Desert Fathers... Mother Theresa had this silence, and referred to it as a void without God responding to her at all...But at least they understand that theology is not words, and that words are but ABOUT theology...At least in their practice of silent prayer they do...I don't know what they SAY about their SILENCE...

Okay...

 

[Nihilo]

The Faith of Christ is not a rational system, but is a profound Mystery...

No it is not irrational, but yes, it is a profound mystery.

The Catholic Church, before the various schisms and secessions, was the single physical expression of the ancient Catholic faith---the faith of our father Saint Abraham---from the time of Christ and his Apostles.

It is the Catholic faith that believes that there are true Christians outside of the Catholic Church's earthly bounds.

There are but two forms of faith extant today and forever. The Catholic faith, which as I said was what Abraham believed (John 8:56; Galatians 3:7), and non-Catholicism (John 8:44). It is Catholicism that deems one such as yourself a true Christian, as one believing the Catholic faith though not confessing it entirely, nor maintaining unity with the Catholic Church, her Magisterium, nor the successor of Saint Peter the first and preeminent Apostle.

If you would have done away with the Catholic Church, through having her submit to the Orthodox ecclesiology rather than to her own authority---the papacy supported though it is with history and with Scripture---then all Christendom would fall, because we already have what you and all other non-Catholics desire; you argue for status quo, and we already know how that pans out. Non-Catholics couldn't care less about the Orthodox Churches save the Orthodox yourselves, and that wouldn't change because it hasn't changed. Your Churches would continue to be as insignificant as they are already, because especially in the West, nobody wants to be Orthodox, and would prefer to tickle their ears with teachings that non-bishops fill them with.

Your traditions are already found and preserved in the Catholic Church. Your only hope, long term, is to be received into the Catholic Church. There's nothing an iconoclastic protestant would like better than to torch your parishes, with their iconography, and yet this is what you clamor for, with your rejection of Catholicism, which is the ancient Christian faith.

The enemy of your enemy must be your friend.

5 year olds would not believe in a two-headed Christ, irreligious of nuances... [eg senses...]

And yet they have no trouble with a single God who is three?

Come to think of it, I am kinda 5 myself!

I'm more two than anything, though I keep trying to get back to my conception since that's where this all began. Can't think of a better way to obey Christ. Matthew 18:3

 

[Arsenios]

No it is not irrational, but yes, it is a profound mystery.

It is not logically derived from ANY created thing or things... Including written witnesses [Bible] or living ones, nor imagination, nor thoughts... The Mystery is Christ IN US... One can read or hear about Christ in us till the end of the Age, and all one will have is other people's testimonies...

The whole point of discipleship is to introduce the disciple to Christ, which is prepared for by his obedience to the commandments of Christ... This is the holy mission of the Church, the union of man with God... It is the Apostolic Commission given by Christ Himself to ALL the Apostles... The Faith of Christ is the Faith Christ gave to the Apostles... And in this Faith of Christ, we find Christ giving Himself to the faithful according to the condition of their souls and His Providence...

The Catholic Church, before the various schisms and secessions, was the single physical expression of the ancient Catholic faith---the faith of our father Saint Abraham---from the time of Christ and his Apostles.

The Jews claimed Abraham for their Father...

Christians claim Christ...

They do not claim Peter...

It is the Catholic faith that believes that there are true Christians outside of the Catholic Church's earthly bounds.

Cornelius comes to mind... His prayers before the throne of the Most High God, but he was led by God into the Church at the hand of Peter, as was Saul at the hand of Ananias...

We only judge within our Communion - Outside of it, we pray for those not within it... We do not judge, nor do we pronounce them, to be or not to be "True Christians"... We are living in the Last Times - When Christ returns, will He find the True Faith? We pray that He will... The times are shortening...

There is salvation outside our Communion, and God is everywhere present and fills all things... The Holy Spirit is not restricted to the Church... Anyone who can see will affirm...

It is Catholicism that deems one such as yourself a true Christian, as one believing the Catholic faith though not confessing it entirely, nor maintaining unity with the Catholic Church, her Magisterium, nor the successor of Saint Peter the first and preeminent Apostle.

We would throw away our Salvation were we to give you our Communion which you desire so much, if it is without your repentance from your papalist error and its fall-out... Indeed, we would throw it away were we to receive your Communion...

You see, you desire our Holy Communion of the Body and Blood of our Lord, and we desire your repentance... Which gives lie to your next assertion...

If you would have done away with the Catholic Church, through having her submit to the Orthodox ecclessiology rather than to her own authority---the papacy supported though it is with history and with Scripture---then all Christendom would fall, because we already have what you and all other non-Catholics desire; you argue for status quo, and we already know how that pans out. Non-Catholics couldn't care less about the Orthodox Churches save the Orthodox yourselves, and that wouldn't change because it hasn't changed. Your Churches would continue to be as insignificant as they are already, because especially in the West, nobody wants to be Orthodox, and would prefer to tickle their ears with teachings that non-bishops fill them with.

You see, we do not desire your Communion at all - It is YOU who desire OURS... And without your repentance, it will not happen... You will continue in, as your own words above confess, "your own authority"... And we will continue in the Faith of Christ...

We are, btw, growing steadily in the US...

And nobody is going to Mass in Europe...

Your traditions are already found and preserved in the Catholic Church. Your only hope, long term, is to be received into the Catholic Church. There's nothing an iconoclastic protestant would like better than to torch your parishes, with their iconography, and yet this is what you clamor for, with your rejection of Catholicism, which is the ancient Christian faith.

When is the last time you attended a Mass of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom? Or St. Basil's? There is precious little "preservation" in the Latin Church

The enemy of your enemy must be your friend.

Our enemies are our friends...

And yet they have no trouble with a single God who is three?

Of course! God is not bound by logic and the Law of Identity...
Kids get that automattikker!
But you see, they talk to Christ...
And they already know He has ONE Head...
Like Mommy and Daddy each have one head...

I'm more two than anything, though I keep trying to get back to my conception since that's where this all began. Can't think of a better way to obey Christ. Matthew 18:3

I do pretty much any age, but not conception... That is WAY above my pay-grade! But some pre-natal by a vision...

Arsenios

 

[Nihilo]

("It" below is "The Faith of Christ")

It is not logically derived from ANY created thing or things... Including written witnesses [Bible] or living ones, nor imagination, nor thoughts...

I agree. In denying its irrationality I am merely saying that the Christian faith does not believe contradictory things, and that therefore, it can be coherently expressed as language.

I think we agree here.

The Mystery is Christ IN US...

The mystery is Christ. "Christ in us," is part of the mystery of Christ, to me.

I think we agree here too.

One can read or hear about Christ in us till the end of the Age, and all one will have is other people's testimonies...

The whole point of discipleship is to introduce the disciple to Christ

I like that thought. My question is, what is the whole point of life? Is it different from the whole point of discipleship, or the same? I believe that the Apostles believed they are the same.

, which is prepared for by his obedience to the commandments of Christ... This is the holy mission of the Church, the union of man with God...

I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church believes and teaches same.

It is the Apostolic Commission given by Christ Himself to ALL the Apostles... The Faith of Christ is the Faith Christ gave to the Apostles... And in this Faith of Christ, we find Christ giving Himself to the faithful according to the condition of their souls and His Providence...

I agree with everything here, since your reference to Catholicism was TOO SUBTLE for anybody else here to notice.

The Jews claimed Abraham for their Father...

Christians claim Christ...

Catholics claim Christ, do the Orthodox claim Christ? Most non-Catholics do not claim Christ because they don't accept that the body of Christ, the whole catholic church, is a lady, and where as Christ's bride, she bears him children.

They do not claim Peter...

Catholics do (in a way). And without contradicting the above either.

Cornelius comes to mind... His prayers before the throne of the Most High God, but he was led by God into the Church at the hand of Peter, as was Saul at the hand of Ananias...

We only judge within our Communion - Outside of it, we pray for those not within it... We do not judge, nor do we pronounce them, to be or not to be "True Christians"... We are living in the Last Times - When Christ returns, will He find the True Faith? We pray that He will... The times are shortening...

There is salvation outside our Communion, and God is everywhere present and fills all things... The Holy Spirit is not restricted to the Church... Anyone who can see will affirm...

Great. Can you just point me in the direction of where I can find that? I just want to see with my own eye's the Orthodox Churches saying it. Which Church council(s) would have this proclamation?

Thanks.

We would throw away our Salvation were we to give you our Communion which you desire so much, if it is without your repentance from your papalist error and its fall-out... Indeed, we would throw it away were we to receive your Communion...

You see, you desire our Holy Communion of the Body and Blood of our Lord, and we desire your repentance... Which gives lie to your next assertion...



You see, we do not desire your Communion at all

Can you show me the conciliar document which teaches this, the highlit?

- It is YOU who desire OURS... And without your repentance, it will not happen... You will continue in, as your own words above confess, "your own authority"... And we will continue in the Faith of Christ...

We are, btw, growing steadily in the US...

Your reputation has preceded you.

And nobody is going to Mass in Europe...

I thought they were still being baptized though, had you heard otherwise?

When is the last time you attended a Mass of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom? Or St. Basil's? There is precious little "preservation" in the Latin Church

Compared to you people only! :chuckle:

The enemy of your enemy . . . .

Our enemies are our friends...

You're not good at making friends either.

Of course! God is not bound by logic and the Law of Identity...

Are you being facetious, I cannot tell.
Logic tests for contradiction.
God is not contradictory.

Kids get that automattikker!
But you see, they talk to Christ...
And they already know He has ONE Head...
Like Mommy and Daddy each have one head...

It's true. But you were raised protestant weren't you. Catholic ecclesiology is not too tough for most kids to grasp from an early age, though it sometimes gives full grown adults fits.

I do pretty much any age, but not conception... That is WAY above my pay-grade! But some pre-natal by a vision...

Nice.

Arsenios

Be good

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

I have been Evangelical Protestant most of my life, even spending some time living in a fulltime religious community.

The more I researched the origin of the bible and the history of my faith, the more I discovered the Catholic Church.

I am taking steps towards joining the Catholic Church and my question is this....'Why shouldn't I?'

I am not asking because I doubt my journey, I am asking because I haven't come across a good enough reason NOT to join.

Each side, for and against may debate, I look forward to reading each side's responses.

So, why shouldn't I convert to the Catholic Church?

Because there's Eastern Orthodoxy; to which the Latins are, and have been, in schism since 1054AD.

In every measure of distinction, the Eastern Church is correct where there is universally Latin error in every area of difference or departure.

I don't consider it an inherently salvific difference, but those judgments are above my pay grade in every instance anyway. I just want to clarify I'm not referring to any determination of that which is or isn't salvific relative to Eastern and Latin (and Protestant).

And the new "Black Pope" should also be stand-alone reason enough. He's reprobate and the spirit of antichrist. Even if none before him were (and they were), he is.

Papacy, Filioque, and Marion dogmas should suffice as starters. Go Eastern. Go with truth.

 

[Arsenios]

("It" below is "The Faith of Christ")
I agree. In denying its irrationality I am merely saying that the Christian faith does not believe contradictory things, and that therefore, it can be coherently expressed as language.

The coherence is obedience in the discipleship of repentance from dead works and Life in Christ... But the Faith is UNTO union with God, and hopefully is being discipled by those who have to some degree at least attained it... But while the saying: "Union with God," can be thought to be coherent, it is not, because until it happens, it is but believed about, yet not known... This is a crucial distinction... Christianity is not what you think, but is union with God, and even if you think it is union with God, that thought, while a Christian thought, is not Christianity... Because this Faith of Christ discipled from His Apostles and through the Churches they established upon this earth, is itself a Mystery... It cannot be otherwise... We who are created can only know that which is created... God is not approachable by us, but He can approach us, and so the job of the Apostolic Body of our Lord is to disciple Her members in the Way of Christ...

My question is, what is the whole point of life? Is it different from the whole point of discipleship, or the same?

Theosis is the whole point of life, for in it, we have Life... The union of man with God BY God... The Calvinists are right, in that it cannot be earned, but not because works do not attain to it, for they do, but because creation can do NOTHING to gain the UN-created God Who created creation...

This is what the fundamental error of Adam was in his disobedience to God, for he believed the serpent's lie that IF he ate of the forbidden fruit, he would know both Good and evil, and therein would become as God is... But the fruit, you see, is created, and only God Himself can impart to man [...These also He Glorifies...] Himself, which is Theosis, or union with God, and this is by the Grace of God alone... God does it... ONLY God CAN do it, because ONLY God HAS HimSELF to Give to man... And what He gives is His Divine Nature, but NOT His Essence, for if He gave THAT, then we would BE God...

And this Theosis is a VERY rare gift, unto which the Church disciples the faithful in obedience to Christ's Commandments, and those who are obedient Christ joins with them in a Marriage that is far more intimate than with one's spouse...

And this eternal Life is, to know the one true God and His Son, Jesus Christ... And He gives this freely to all, according to their capacity to have it, and discipleship in His Holy Body, the Church, increases this capacity by putting the old man of sin slowly to death, making way for Christ when He comes, keeping vigilance against sin, keeping the lamps filled with the oil of the Holy Spirit... And the beauty of this parable is that the wise virgins sent out the foolish ones to PURCHASE this oil, exchanging the unrighteous manna of the world for the righteous Manna from God... And this is the work of repentance, which the rich young man shrank back from the doing of the work, for Christ taught us all when He said to this young man: "Go, sell ALL that you have, and give to the poor, and YOU SHALL HAVE RICHES IN HEAVEN...

Catholics claim Christ, do the Orthodox claim Christ?

The Orthodox ARE the Catholic Church, the Body of Christ... We have always been the Body of Christ... Since 34AD...

Can you just point me in the direction of where I can find that? I just want to see with my own eye's the Orthodox Churches saying it. Which Church council(s) would have this proclamation?

It is a given... The Bible tells us from God: "I will have Mercy upon whom I WILL have Mercy..." I mean, if God wishes to make a person a member of His Body apart from that Body, He can certainly do so... I don't think it has ever come up in Councils... It's a gimme...

And indeed, this is what we so frequently find in the Protestant Children of the Latin Scholastics... They become unhappy with some point of the teaching in their church, so those unhappy ones pull out and head down the street and form another church with a teaching they are happy with - Happens all the time... Tons of denom's... Yet you find the Holy Spirit still pursuing them, and good things flow forth from them - even Holy things... It is what keeps them with the crumbs that they have... But we are given a veritable smorgasbord of the Spiritual gifts... And the power to repent from our sins...

Can you show me the conciliar document which teaches this?

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/T...into-the-Orthodox-Church-Fr-George-Dragas.pdf

I should add that though we do not desire YOUR Communion, we do earnestly desire that you come back to OUR Communion, from which you departed a thousand years ago...

I thought they were still being baptized though, had you heard otherwise?

Europe is functionally atheist now... Nobody is attending churches there... Mass at Notre Dame de Paris is virtually unattended...

Compared to you people only! :chuckle:

I have SEEN the Mass of St. John Chrysostom's Divine Liturgy done by the Latins on You Tube... It was THE Mass until within the last hundred years... Done in Latin... Until Vatican II...

You're not good at making friends either.

There is an expression in the Muslim Middle East concerning the presence of the Orthodox in a city: "No Orthodox? What a pity..."

Are you being facetious, I cannot tell.

That Law by Aristotle does not apply to God, but only to creation...

Logic tests for contradiction.

Yes, and contradiction is a property of human thought, and human thought is created, and God is not created...

God is not contradictory.

No, He is not...

But you were raised protestant weren't you.

Not successfully - I was an atheist my first 36 years... The demon I had entered about 6 months into term... Mary Magdalene is one of my guys...

Catholic ecclesiology is not too tough for most kids to grasp from an early age, though it sometimes gives full grown adults fits.

Kids are naturally prone to knowing God...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

And the new "Black Pope" should also be stand-alone reason enough. He's reprobate and the spirit of antichrist. Even if none before him were (and they were), he is.

Good Grief!

What has he done?

Is he majorly messing things up?

We Antiochians have a new US Metropolitan... Mtp Joseph... A friend...

Arsenios

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Good Grief!

What has he done?

Is he majorly messing things up?

We Antiochians have a new US Metropolitan... Mtp Joseph... A friend...

Arsenios

It would take a few volumes. Research his life and his dark past. Though there are many devout Latins with true salvific faith, everything since Vatican II has been a slide into depravity.

This "Black" Pope is the culmination of that, and he's subtly undermining the Christian faith in every measure. The hierarchy of the RCC is not in acccord with Christ at all, regardless of other individual hearts.

It's the inevitability of the schizm from 1000 years ago. And the Latins covet the Eastern communion that they cannot have. Even someone as nominal and peripheral to Orthodoxy as myself can see it all very clearly.

 

[Sheila B]

Join the Catholic Church if you agree that the scriptures cannot be understood by your own studies.

I understand the entire counsel of the word of God.

If you join the Catholic faith you give up the right to study God's word yourself.

You however don't have a problem with this approach now. Therefore if you are not convicted by God to examine His word then by all means disappear into the masses...

As that video a few posts ago shared: the catholic understanding of scripture is complete- all verses form a unit, one organic whole- no separate theologies based on a few verses here and there. Once one grasps that, then the study of scripture really opens up, in a way it never could before!

And you are mistaken, catholics are encouraged to study and add to the whole work of God in progressing the understanding of every aspect of scriptural study and research.

 

[OCTOBER23]

JESUS will say to the Idolotrous Catholics,

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:

depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Sheila B]

Bookmark the link. Its the online version of this booklet:

Oh My!!!!

This is the little booklet that changed my life! In the amount of time it took to read the little booklet, I was completely transformed!

Two points covered in the booklet that altered my thinking totally:
1) First- the unbroken line of succession of popes since Peter, like 264 or something!!! I was stunned- I had never heard that before. It clearly seemed impossible for man to do this, and must be God driven and protected.

2.) Second- the paragraph about recieving communion "without discerning the BODY" !!!!!!!!! (from 1 Cor)
What body???? OMGoodness belief in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist hit me so hard! Grace flooded my soul and has never left it. "I Believe"!

Thanks for reminding me about Pillar of Truth Pillar of Fire! Thank you Jesus!

 

[The Barbarian]

So, why shouldn't I convert to the Catholic Church?

For one thing, you'll need a thick skin. As you see, a lot of people have some weird superstitions about the Church.

I guess you know by now that Catholics don't believe that other Christians are necessarily going to Hell, so it's not a matter of saving your soul, unless you know the Church is the one established by Christ.

It is consistent with the the things Jesus told us, and while it's not as easy as some denominations, the spiritual rewards are worth swimming the Tiber.

Welcome.

 

[Arsenios]

The Latins covet the Eastern Communion that they cannot have. Even someone as nominal and peripheral to Orthodoxy as myself can see it all very clearly.

Yes, they do, and more than that, we earnestly desire that they should have it... But alas, they think that Christ assigned to Peter and to those in succession from him the Headship of the Body of Christ on earth, and therefore that they should be God's boss on earth... And it simply is not true... Heck, OUR Bishops, Metropolitans, and Patriarchs are not the boss of even their own Jurisdiction's of Christ's Body, but are its most profound servants... And this even when they had close relationship with secular power...

And yes, there were fallings away, and abuses of position, and all manner of sin at every level of service, and there still are... That is part of the human condition... There is no height from which one cannot fall... And the Latins flat out do not get it, that their Popes are not the Head of the Body of Christ on earth... And until they submit themselves, Pope and all, to Christ on earth in His Saints and in the Communion of the Apostolic Church, they will never have Communion with us...

Christ IS the Head of His Body on earth:
"And lo, I am with you always, until the end of the Age..."

That said, their faithful are our brothers and sisters, and their Church IS an Apostolic Church, however amiss it may be... The basics of Salvation are there even if well diluted by Orthodox standards... One's entry into the heavenly Kingdom is not attained on the basis of proclaiming the CORRECT THEOLOGY, but instead is based upon the sincerity and depth of one's repentance...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

For one thing, you'll need a thick skin. As you see, a lot of people have some weird superstitions about the Church.

Family infighting is fierce, and I cannot tell you the number of times people lump the Orthodox with the Latins, and hate us... I simply tell them that the Latins are our Sister Church but that we have profound doctrinal differences, and are not in Communion with one another... Yet still they come, accusing and yelling all manner of things... It is how Satan maintains the divisions he has instigated... He is the master of divisions... Yet they are YOUR illegitimate step-children, birthed from you through the Reformation... And as such, you are accountable for them... And many of them are spit-faced mad at you... We try to help as best we can, but we are at that point, perhaps, as Rev. 20:3 describes, where the long finite time is at its end, and Satan is being loosed for a little time, and there is little we can do to help your children in such a climate... We feel much like their grandmother, for we are Old School, and do not develop doctrines as a methodology of appropriate Church theological speculation... We simply hand on to the next generation that which we have received, because it is unchanged and filled with the Grace of God unto man's Salvation...


Arsenios

 

[oatmeal]

I have been Evangelical Protestant most of my life, even spending some time living in a fulltime religious community.

The more I researched the origin of the bible and the history of my faith, the more I discovered the Catholic Church.

I am taking steps towards joining the Catholic Church and my question is this....'Why shouldn't I?'

I am not asking because I doubt my journey, I am asking because I haven't come across a good enough reason NOT to join.

Each side, for and against may debate, I look forward to reading each side's responses.

So, why shouldn't I convert to the Catholic Church?

If you want to, you should.

You can become a priest and wear funny clothes and re execute Jesus Christ symbolically every time you do a mass.

You, too, can learn to ignore scripture in ways you never dreamed of.

You, too, can kiss crucifixes and wave incense burners and pray to statues of dead people, necromancy is sanctioned by the RCC, praying to dead people is a form of seances.

Psalm 6:5

Look at all the fun you could have!

 

[The Barbarian]

Family infighting is fierce, and I cannot tell you the number of times people lump the Orthodox with the Latins, and hate us... I simply tell them that the Latins are our Sister Church but that we have profound doctrinal differences, and are not in Communion with one another

Not all Orthodox churches are in schism from the Catholic Church.


Eastern Catholic Churches are in full communion with the whole Catholic Church. While they accept the canonical authority of the See of Rome, they retain their distinctive liturgical rites, laws, customs and traditional devotions and have their own theological emphases. Terminology may vary: for instance, diocese and eparchy, vicar general and protosyncellus, confirmation and chrismation are respectively Western and Eastern terms for the same realities. The mysteries (sacraments) of baptism and chrismation are generally administered, according to the ancient tradition of the Church, one immediately after the other. Infants who are baptized and chrismated are also given the Eucharist.

 

[Sheila B]

... But alas, they think that Christ assigned to Peter and to those in succession from him the Headship of the Body of Christ on earth, and therefore that they should be God's boss on earth... And it simply is not true...

Arsenios

If I were convinced that this were the truth, I'd seek membership in Eastern Orthodoxy today. But, the facts is, that Polycarp traveled to Rome at great suffering due to his advanced age and the difficulties of travel of the times... in order to confer with the successor of Peter's Chair about the alteration of the celebration of Passover to a regular Sunday rather than the ancient practice of the Moon's cycles to determine the exact date, as the Hebrews did and still do.

This witness of Polycarp's travel and the outcome: it is told that the Holy Father gave Polycarp's diocese a rare and unique privelelge of celebrating the ancient way, due to his reverence for "Polycarp's age and tears" since Polycarp (who grew up literally at the Apostle's feet it is said) had the witness of John the Apostle who did it the ancient way
... yet "Peter had spoken" and it was accepted by all of ancient Christendom...

 

[The Barbarian]

Arsenios asks, regarding Pope Francis:

What has he done?

In his youth, he was a bouncer for a club. He spent most of his time as a bishop, frequenting the slums and disreputable neighborhoods of the cities. He even has told his bishops that they as shepherds should "smell of the sheep", and tend to the down-and-out among them.

He told the Italian government that they had freedom to investigate the Vatican bank, which had been sometimes used by criminals to hide from the law. He dressed down the Curia, telling them to stop politicking and start being priests again. He even told them that they needed to stop being such sourpusses.

And he let all sorts of sinners know that the Church is here for them.

How disreputable. A friend of tax collectors and sinners. Wouldn't you expect better than that from the Bishop of Rome? WFTH-I