ECT why don't you say the Our Father?

[chrysostom]

No one is saved by it! Jesus gave the lost sheep of Israel an example
of how to pray. If you desire to say it then, say it.

they were also redeemed by Jesus
everyone was
so
why would Jesus give this prayer just to them?
and
why would Jesus give us a prayer that we won't need?

 

[chrysostom]

No need to be told how to pray anymore.

is there any need to pray?

 

[oatmeal]

Matthew 6:9-15

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Luke 11:1-4

And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.

2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

3 Give us day by day our daily bread.

4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

God is most certainly the Father of those that He has fathered. I John 3:1-2, I Peter 1:23, Romans 8:14

We are most certainly to keep our God, our Father's name holy or rather sanctified, set apart from all others like Jesus Christ did.

We most certainly want God's kingdom to reign but that is up to us to implement. II Corinthians 5:18-20, as those given and committed the ministry of reconciliation and the word of reconciliation.

Believers want that God's will be done on earth as well as it is in heaven. This prayer being a model of things we can and should include in our prayers is not specific for my life or yours what would be the highest priority of what we can and should be doing on earth. Most certainly being a general request it is a good thing but God also instructs us to be specific about what we want. Philippians 4:6

God does not answer prayers not prayed, God wants us to learn the wisdom to be specific in our requests and those requests must be according to what God says He will grant according to instructions in His word. There are truths we should simply get busy doing and not be praying about as if we expected God to do all for us, to live our lives for us, God is God, we are us. We choose to live our lives according to the word of God as best we know and are willing to do at any particular time.

Some of the truths in this example have been out dated because Jesus taught his disciples to pray these things before Jesus died on our behalf.

Jesus, having died on our behalf made it possible for greater truths to replace the former principles that were works in progress.

In this age of grace, God's forgiveness to us is not dependent upon whether we forgive others or not. We should forgive others, Ephesians 4:32, but we don't do it to win God's favor, Jesus Christ already won/earned God's favor for us. We forgive because God in Christ has already forgiven us. We have no excuse not to forgive others when we consider what God has forgiven us for.

We do not have to pray for our daily bread, for as Philippians 4:19 states, God shall supply all our need as we walk with Him and are involved in doing His will in our lives not our own wills

God does not lead us into temptation, but when we find ourselves tempted, God always makes a way for us to escape that temptation. I Corinthians 10:13

Repeating a prayer that is simply a general outline for those of the lost sheep of the house of Israel is not right believing. Matthew 15:24

The accomplishments of Jesus Christ ushered in a new administration, where grace, not the law of Moses, is the basis of all do to love and serve God.

Why pray a prayer that ignores the accomplished works of Jesus Christ?

We should learn what God in Christ accomplished for us and live the best of what God has to offer to us

Like the two greatest commandments, love God and love your neighbor, the above prayers are not specific enough to useful in daily living.

If "love God" and "love your neighbor" is all we need to know then we could rightfully discard the rest of scripture. However, the rest of scripture gives us information on HOW to love God and to love our neighbor.

Likewise, the above prayers are not specific, we need to know more specifically what we can and should pray for. I Timothy 2:1-2 tell us some things we should pray for and why

Acts 2:42 tell us they prayed but not what they were praying for.

Acts 4:24-31 tells us they prayed for more boldness, more of what got them in trouble in the first place. And it tells us the result. They spoke the word of God with boldness.

I Samuel 1:10 Hannah prayed to have a man child, a baby, a son of her own.

In II Chronicles 1:10 Solomon prayed for wisdom and knowledge so that he could lead God's people rightly.

In Job 42:10 Job prayed for his friends. (Clearly, the fourth man, Elihu, was not a friend of Job.)

In II Corinthians 12:8, Paul prayed that the thorns in the flesh, the Judeans who hounded him and obstructed his ministry would depart from him.

God answered his prayer, not by causing the enemies of Christ to depart from him, but by reminding him that His grace was sufficient for Paul

 

[meshak]

So many complicated arguments for so simple commands.

so typical.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes. It is a very powerful metaphor and points to the abundant life we can gain from the death of Jesus.

I just don't focus on the human sacrifice aspects of this theology.

When you say that, it sounds as if you are slowly changing your mind. Are you beginning to change your mind about Jesus being a sacrifice?

 

[serpentdove]

why don't you say the Our Father?

it has come to our attention
that
many here do not say the Lord's prayer...

It has come to your attention :noway: pagan? linger: Mt 6:7, NIV :blabla:

 

[God's Truth]

Coming up with our own opinions based on reading 2,000-year-old theological writings is easy enough. The danger is that we often interpret these archaic terms and phrases using our own modern sensibilities.

"The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there."
--J.P. Hartley

God's wisdom is above man's wisdom, yet you think that God's word is now old and wrong. How do get to the point where you put down God and lift up J.P. Hartley?

 

[God's Truth]

Answer what; knucklehead in your belief you are being "objective" - your question was vague.

And I said "seemingly baiting" - Mr "objective."

Yeah, honest criticism on your part - from you - one so clearly blinded by his own subjectivity.

How fitting with the subjective reasoning of the OP of this thread your "objectivity" is.

You just haven't a clue what I am talking about.

But enough of your failure in that - ask your question clearly.

The both of you are wrong.

 

[oatmeal]

So many complicated arguments for so simple commands.

so typical.

God's word is given to us so that the simple can receive knowledge, wisdom, understanding and discretion.

Proverbs 1:2-7

To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;

3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;

4 To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.

5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

 

[oatmeal]

Like the two greatest commandments, love God and love your neighbor, the above prayers are not specific enough to useful in daily living.

If "love God" and "love your neighbor" is all we need to know then we could rightfully discard the rest of scripture. However, the rest of scripture gives us information on HOW to love God and to love our neighbor.

Likewise, the above prayers are not specific, we need to know more specifically what we can and should pray for. I Timothy 2:1-2 tell us some things we should pray for and why

Acts 2:42 tell us they prayed but not what they were praying for.

Acts 4:24-31 tells us they prayed for more boldness, more of what got them in trouble in the first place. And it tells us the result. They spoke the word of God with boldness.

I Samuel 1:10 Hannah prayed to have a man child, a baby, a son of her own.

In II Chronicles 1:10 Solomon prayed for wisdom and knowledge so that he could lead God's people rightly.

In Job 42:10 Job prayed for his friends. (Clearly, the fourth man, Elihu, was not a friend of Job.)

In II Corinthians 12:8, Paul prayed that the thorns in the flesh, the Judeans who hounded him and obstructed his ministry would depart from him.

God answered his prayer, not by causing the enemies of Christ to depart from him, but by reminding him that His grace was sufficient for Paul

There are many other things we can pray for, but until we fulfill the requirements Jesus taught in

Matthew 21:22

Our prayers will be for nought

 

[God's Truth]

The evidence I read from the Bible gives me an abundance of information regarding different traditions of the term "repentance."
And because the discrepancies and contradictions surrounding repentance are actually IN the Bible, this means that I must read them honestly and take them seriously.

We are all born into God's infinite cherry orchard and since we are merely human, we can only cherry-pick the thoughts and beliefs and opinions that make sense to us.

The gospel authors did the same thing. First came Jesus and then came the interpretation of him by his later followers. Each gospel writer cherry-picked their own Jesus--one that made sense to THEM.

Just because you do not understand what the scriptures mean does not mean God contradicted Himself.

If you obeyed God you would have understanding.

Start out by fearing God and humbling yourself.

If you did that, you would not say what you do.

Jesus says he reveals himself to those who obey.

You do not obey so then you give us only worthless opinions.

 

[God's Truth]

There are many other things we can pray for, but until we fulfill the requirements Jesus taught in

Matthew 21:22

Our prayers will be for nought

Believe and obey; yet, you still might not get what you asked for.

 

[Nick M]

the traditions of men - he obviously sees things through.

I think he sees things through a RINO pope.

 

[God's Truth]

Your sarcasm is noted. Sarcasm is always a "cover emotion" for anger. It might have been useful to simply admit "I am angry and would like to see your evidence," etc.

There are two contradictory traditions interwoven into the Bible:

1. A God of mercy who demands not a blood sacrifice for sin but only wants us to come before him in repentance and a contrite heart.
2. The newer tradition was one in which a jealous God of justice requires a blood sacrifice for sin.

Jesus and John the Baptizer advocated repentance. Paul, the Aaronite priestly cult in Moses' day and the New Testament gospel of John basically held to Jesus being slaughtered by his father to forgive human sin.

The history of Israel talks about Solomon and David's kingdom being split in two, but the two kingdoms both positioned themselves as the only authority when it came to tradition and religious practice.

In the Bible we often find clear contradictions of the two traditions in close proximity to each other. In Genesis 34 we read that the northern kingdom's capital Shechem was obtained through deceit and then a massacre, but in Genesis 33:18--19 we are told that the land in Shechem was honorably obtained through a purchase.

In Exodus 34 we can see that some priests in Judah decided they could reap an advantage by challenging the understanding of God as merciful. They pushed a God of strict justice requiring blood sacrifice for sin--and that sacrifice could only be done through them.

Leviticus begins by saying that it was to be Aaron's descendants who were to control the use of blood sacrifices.

This was a big break with the much older tradition of a God of great love and mercy.

Read through Deuteronomy and pay close attention to the rules of sacrificial offerings. There is no mention whatsoever of a sacrifice for sin. All sacrifices are in the nature of donations and tithes in grateful response to blessings received.

This evidence is just an early example of the dichotomy between mercy and sacrifice, repentance and the spilling of blood, a God of revenge and justice and a God with an open heart.

If you obeyed Jesus' teachings in the New Testament, you would be given understanding.

The New Testament says that the Old Testament and law was based on fear so that people would obey.

God sent His Son at the right time. God sent His Son as a sacrifice so that we could be reconciled to Him.

 

[God's Truth]

But what is more objective than recognizing what is actually IN the Bible and building one's own belief system as a result of the facts, evidence and data in every Bible verse?

Again, if you want to have some understanding of God, then you have to get it the way God says to get it.

You will not get it by reading all kinds of books from mere men.

Do you want wisdom from God, or not?

 

[Nick M]

Believe and obey

Acts 16

29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Ephesians 1

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Romans 10

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For the record, this is why I, (John W, Sozo,) condemn others who say they are Christian. They do not confess him, they pervert his gospel. They provide the evidence to us that they do not believe, and are wolves in sheep's clothing. They look nice on the outside but are ravenous wolves on the inside, twisting the gospel.

 

[God's Truth]

You can 'count' on it.

You are a lesson in un humbleness.

 

[God's Truth]

Acts 16

29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Ephesians 1

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Romans 10

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For the record, this is why I, (John W, Sozo,) condemn others who say they are Christian. They do not confess him, they pervert his gospel. They provide the evidence to us that they do not believe, and are wolves in sheep's clothing. They look nice on the outside but are ravenous wolves on the inside, twisting the gospel.

Okay violent man.

Why don't you listen carefully for a minute? Can you do that?

You quote scriptures that speak of believing. That is right, for of course, we are supposed to believe. Does that make the other scriptures about obeying worthless? No.

You quote Acts 16:29, and you quote that scripture because the jailor asked what must he do and Paul says believe. Why do you forget the part where Paul had to preach the gospel and the jailor had to agree and be water baptized that occupancies repentance? Why do you forget the other scripture that is almost EXACTLY like this one where the people asked, "What must we do", and Peter says repent.

Then you quote Romans 10 that says confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, but you then go against Jesus who says that those who say "Lord, Lord..." must also do what he says!

You are deceived and you butchered God's Truth.

 

[Cross Reference]

You are a lesson in un humbleness.

LOL!!!

 

[God's Truth]

LOL!!!

All you do is keep proving you are not humble.