Why Calvinist Cannot Defend Their Doctrine of a Limited Atonement

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You don't believe the Gospel, you don't believe the Truths of Tulip!

I place my faith in a Book, not a flower.

 

[Bright Raven]

To echo AMR, of course. Most Reformed folk do not hold that life eternal lies in being Reformed. We see Reformed thought as being the best explanation of the whole of Scripture, but not that those holding other views are outside the faith. In this forum the salvation of the Reformed is much more questioned than the other way around.

I know. Beloved 57 and Nanja give Calvinism a bad wrap and so do those who are hyper-critical outside the Calvinistic camp. If saved, what difference does it make wether I am a Calvinist or a free will pentecostal. The question is do you believe in Jesus and His teachings.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

We can always find those odd ducks that are outside the camp. Even in this thread Robert Pate consigns all Calvinists to eternal damnation. So what is the point?

As BD noted above, you will have to look very hard, especially at TOL, to find the Reformed declaring all non-Reformed lost, hell-bound, and sin-bent. Yet, not a week passes that someone here and about declares the Calvinist or the Reformed on the road to Hell.

So let's be more honest with the topic and not tee up the oddballs here and about as representative of the majority in one camp or the other. Unfortunately those with minority views are often the most vocal. The casual observer of their rhetoric can mistake them as representing a broader group of believers. They do not and anyone with a modicum of discernment should know better and not simply pile on to the nonsense of others.

It is very serious to declare someone professing the faith as not possessing the faith without a great deal of direct discussion with he or she. And even after much discussion, such a declaration should be made only with the gravest forethought, prayer, and counsel with the community of saints.

At best we can only speak in broad generalities, such as "Mormons, Arians, and JWs are not Christians."

AMR

Important issues that will lead one to eternal life today:
1) One must hear the true Grace Gospel.
2) One must realize they are a lost sinner.
3) One must place their faith in Christ.
4) One must be indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit.
5) One must be baptized (not by water) into the Body
of Christ by the Holy Spirit.
6) One must receive the righteousness of Christ.

Water Baptism, speaking in tongues, signs and wonders,
are not for today. According to Paul we're living in the
Dispensation of Grace. God's Grace received by placing
OUR faith in Christ, once we've heard Paul's Gospel is
sufficient for gaining eternal life. Becoming a "True
Believer" is a work of the Holy Spirit. However, we
must first hear the Grace Message and place our
faith in order to start the process. I'm certain that
my Calvinist friends will disagree with this point.

It is a point of contention because, Calvinists believe,
God choose His "Elect" before the foundation of the
world. Dispensationalists and others disagree. I'm one
of them.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

There are serious consequences in store for those who reject the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ.

That was God's only begotten Son dying on the cross for the sins of the world, 1 John 2:2.

Woe unto you that pervert the Gospel. It would be better for you that you were never born.

You cannot reject the scriptures that tell us Christ died for the sins of the whole world and expect to go to heaven.

Whereas, it is true, Christ died for the sins of ALL mankind, however,
only those who hear the Grace Message and place all their faith in
Christ, will reap the benefit of eternal life. The rest will stand before
God and be judged according to their works.

 

[Nanja]

I try not to use the acronym TULIP so much because, the foundation of TULIP is vast and can easily be misunderstood and then judged negatively.

If our preaching of the True Gospel, which is found in the Truths of TULIP, is misunderstood and judged negatively,
that's no reason to not preach it, but rather to understand that many are blinded to the Truth, because the Gospel
of God's Electing Grace is deliberately hid from them.

2 Cor. 4:3-4
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: (v.4) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds
of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So before anyone can Savingly believe the Glorious Gospel of Christ, they must first be delivered from the power of
darkness / blindness before they can believe.

But if anyone says that they believed before they were saved, then what it amounts to is that they are saying
that they delivered themselves from the power of darkness Eph. 2:8-9.

~~~~~

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Important issues that will lead one to eternal life today:
1) One must hear the true Grace Gospel.
2) One must realize they are a lost sinner.
3) One must place their faith in Christ.
4) One must be indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit.
5) One must be baptized (not by water) into the Body
of Christ by the Holy Spirit.
6) One must receive the righteousness of Christ.

Water Baptism, speaking in tongues, signs and wonders,
are not for today. According to Paul we're living in the
Dispensation of Grace. God's Grace received by placing
OUR faith in Christ, once we've heard Paul's Gospel is
sufficient for gaining eternal life. Becoming a "True
Believer" is a work of the Holy Spirit. However, we
must first hear the Grace Message and place our
faith in order to start the process. I'm certain that
my Calvinist friends will disagree with this point.

It is a point of contention because, Calvinists believe,
God choose His "Elect" before the foundation of the
world. Dispensationalists and others disagree. I'm one
of them.

What one must recognize is that it is God and God alone that saves for the lost will not "recognize" anything as you state above, for the lost

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Clearly from the above small sampling of the many teachings in Holy Writ about the inability of the lost, it is clear that they have no moral ability in and of themselves to seek after the righteousness of God.

It is only when God the Holy Spirit regeneratively replaces their lost hearts of stone with one of flesh (Eze. 36:26) that the lost are given the moral ability to believe and then irrevocably evidence the fruit of their regeneration—faith and repentance.

The miracle we should be in awe about is that God saves anyone, for all are born fallen in Adam and deserve nothing but God's justice. Would that all give God all the glory for their salvation rather than clinging on to some humanistic hope of their own wisdom, personal ability to discern to to the Good News, "choosing rightly while their neighbor chooses wrongly", etc. Soli Deo Gloria! was the cry of the Reformation {refresh the page if you get an error}, yet after the likes of Arminius, Finney, and others it is now Soli Deo Gloria...and me!

Sigh.

AMR

 

[meshak]

At best we can only speak in broad generalities, such as "Mormons, Arians, and JWs are not Christians."

AMR

You are so Calvinist, hateful just like your leader, Calvin.

You don't care what Jesus says.

Christians are supposed to be Jesus' followers, not anyone one else,

Calvinists lord is Calvin, not Jesus.

So according to your logic, you are not a Christian.

 

[Bright Raven]

You are so Calvinist, hateful just like your leader, Calvin.

You don't care what Jesus says.

Christians are supposed to be Jesus' followers, not anyone one else,

Calvinists lord is Calvin, not Jesus.

So according to your logic, you are not a Christian.

No, you don't care what the Bible says.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

What one must recognize is that it is God and God alone that saves for the lost will not "recognize" anything as you state above, for the lost

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Clearly from the above small sampling of the many teachings in Holy Writ about the inability of the lost, it is clear that they have no moral ability in and of themselves to seek after the righteousness of God.

It is only when God the Holy Spirit regeneratively replaces their lost hearts of stone with one of flesh (Eze. 36:26) that the lost are given the moral ability to believe and then irrevocably evidence the fruit of their regeneration—faith and repentance.

The miracle we should be in awe about is that God saves anyone, for all are born fallen in Adam and deserve nothing but God's justice. Would that all give God all the glory for their salvation rather than clinging on to some humanistic hope of their own wisdom, personal ability to discern to to the Good News, "choosing rightly while their neighbor chooses wrongly", etc. Soli Deo Gloria! was the cry of the Reformation {refresh the page if you get an error}, yet after the likes of Arminius, Finney, and others it is now Soli Deo Gloria...and me!

Sigh.

AMR

Man cannot be saved unless they hear the "Grace Gospel" of their
salvation and place their faith in Christ as their Savior. God offers
His Grace as a "gift" to mankind. They can not earn it by their
works/good deeds, going to church, water baptism, placing their
faith in Calvin and other teachers, etc.

Even a Calvinist must first, hear the Gospel and place their faith
in Christ. So, beyond some "Man created doctrine" what's the
difference between how I got saved and you got saved? I heard
the Grace Gospel and placed my faith in Christ. You, heard the
Grace Gospel and placed your faith in Christ. We only disagree
on how we got to where we are.

 

[glorydaz]

Man cannot be saved unless they hear the "Grace Gospel" of their
salvation and place their faith in Christ as their Savior. God offers
His Grace as a "gift" to mankind. They can not earn it by their
works/good deeds, going to church, water baptism, placing their
faith in Calvin and other teachers, etc.

Even a Calvinist must first, hear the Gospel and place their faith
in Christ. So, beyond some "Man created doctrine" what's the
difference between how I got saved and you got saved? I heard
the Grace Gospel and placed my faith in Christ. You, heard the
Grace Gospel and placed your faith in Christ. We only disagree
on how we got to where we are.

Yep, and I say there is POWER in the Gospel itself. We are drawn to the light of the glorious gospel because we were created by God to know Him. Which is why Paul tells us we are without excuse.

I honestly don't know how it can get any clearer.

Romans 1:19-20
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yep, and I say there is POWER in the Gospel itself. We are drawn to the light of the glorious gospel because we were created by God to know Him. Which is why Paul tells us we are without excuse.

I honestly don't know how it can get any clearer.

Romans 1:19-20
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

Amen.

 

[glorydaz]

What one must recognize is that it is God and God alone that saves for the lost will not "recognize" anything as you state above, for the lost

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);

This verse, for instance, is talking about those who trust in man...who heart departeth from the Lord. Clearly there are those who trust and hope in the Lord. The things of God are clearly seen and understood....Romans 1. Not all when they knew God (as God created us) became vain in their imaginations and had their foolish heart darkened....which is why we are without excuse.

Jer. 17:5 Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

Jer. 17:6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.

Jer.17:7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is.

Jer. 17:8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

Jer. 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Jer. 17:10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.​

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

This verse, for instance, is talking about those who trust in man...who heart departeth from the Lord. Clearly there are those who trust and hope in the Lord. The things of God are clearly seen and understood....Romans 1. Not all when they knew God (as God created us) became vain in their imaginations and had their foolish heart darkened....which is why we are without excuse.

Jer. 17:5 Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

Jer. 17:6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.

Jer.17:7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is.

Jer. 17:8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

Jer. 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Jer. 17:10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.​

This is speaking of the ongoing war between flesh and spirit.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

... what's the
difference between how I got saved and you got saved? I heard
the Grace Gospel and placed my faith in Christ. You, heard the
Grace Gospel and placed your faith in Christ. We only disagree
on how we got to where we are.

Within the disagreement lies the degree of glory given to God, who is rightly jealous of His glory. The former view shares that glory with the man who will claim he was wise enough, discerning enough, etc., to hear and then choose wisely. The latter view makes no claim of personal attributes of wisdom, discernment, etc., preferring to give all glory to God.

In fact, the starting point of both views usually begins with what one believes to be one's state before coming to faith. The former will generally believe the lost man is but spiritually wounded, and still able to grasp the life preserver tossed in his direction. Moreover, the attempt at grasping may even fail depending upon the man's ability. The latter sees the lost man resting quite spiritually dead at the bottom of the sea possessing no ability whatsoever to grasp the life preserver until quickened to life by the regenerative power of the Spirit. Once so quickened, there is no question the life preserver will be firmly about the man, for he does not grasp it, but is willingly and irrevocably enveloped by it.

So out of both these starting points flows two streams of further disagreement. Thus, for me at least, it does matter, especially from the perspective of one's walk of faith.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Yet, not a week passes that someone here and about declares the Calvinist or the Reformed on the road to Hell.

...You don't care what Jesus says.

...you are not a Christian.

Q. E. D.


AMR

 

[heir]

Within the disagreement lies the degree of glory given to God, who is rightly jealous of His glory. The former view shares that glory with the man who will claim he was wise enough, discerning enough, etc., to hear and then choose wisely. The latter view makes no claim of personal attributes of wisdom, discernment, etc., preferring to give all glory to God.

In fact, the starting point of both views usually begins with what one believes to be one's state before coming to faith. The former will generally believe the lost man is but spiritually wounded, and still able to grasp the life preserver tossed in his direction. Moreover, the attempt at grasping may even fail depending upon the man's ability. The latter sees the lost man resting quite spiritually dead at the bottom of the sea possessing no ability whatsoever to grasp the life preserver until quickened to life by the regenerative power of the Spirit. Once so quickened, there is no question the life preserver will be firmly about the man, for he does not grasp it, but is willingly and irrevocably enveloped by it.

So out of both these starting points flows two streams of further disagreement. Thus, for me at least, it does matter, especially from the perspective of one's walk of faith.

AMR

The gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (Romans 1:16 KJV). When did you trust the Lord after hearing and believing it (Romans 10:17 KJV, Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV)?

And once again, AMR ignores the question. You have to wonder why (2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV). It's such a simple question for the saved.

 

[beloved57]

The gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (Romans 1:16 KJV). When did you trust the Lord after hearing and believing it (Romans 10:17 KJV, Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV)?

And once again, AMR ignores the question. You have to wonder why (2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV). It's such a simple question for the saved.

You don't believe or understand the Gospel if you don't believe TULIP!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You don't believe or understand the Gospel if you don't believe TULIP!

I see the "baloney salesman" is still at it. Win anybody over lately
B57?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (Romans 1:16 KJV). When did you trust the Lord after hearing and believing it (Romans 10:17 KJV, Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV)?

And once again, AMR ignores the question. You have to wonder why (2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV). It's such a simple question for the saved.

Amen

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You don't believe or understand the Gospel if you don't believe TULIP!

Tiptoe through the Tulips in order to get to the truth.