Why Calvinist Cannot Defend Their Doctrine of a Limited Atonement

[Poly]

Jeremiah 19:5 "...(they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind)..."

Couldn't God have just left this part out? I mean, if the Calvinist is right, then obviously it DID come to mind because He predestined it to come to mind. It was actually "come to mind" since the beginning. Why even mention this false statement?

 

[Dialogos]

John 3:16 New King James Version (NKJV)

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Does the world mean the whole world? Does whoever mean anyone?

It means the world in general, yes. Anyone means anyone. Calvinists have consistently maintained that anyone who believes on Jesus will be saved.

Now; my turn to ask a question.

Do you think that John 3:16 teaches that God has tried to save every single person in the world who has ever lived or ever will live, with exception, with equal effort?

 

[Bright Raven]

It means the world in general, yes. Anyone means anyone. Calvinists have consistently maintained that anyone who believes on Jesus will be saved.

Now; my turn to ask a question.

Do you think that John 3:16 teaches that God has tried to save every single person in the world who has ever lived or ever will live, with exception, with equal effort?

No, He made salvation available to everyone.

 

[Dialogos]

Jeremiah 19:5 "...(they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind)..."

Couldn't God have just left this part out? I mean, if the Calvinist is right, then obviously it DID come to mind because He predestined it to come to mind. It was actually "come to mind" since the beginning. Why even mention this false statement?

The Hebrew word "lebab" has the connotation of "heart," It was not God's heart that Israel would do such a thing. That's why the LXX translates the Hebrew word with the Greek word "Kardia."

It does not mean, as you try to contort it to mean, that God couldn't possibly have anticipated that Israel could do such a thing.

In fact, God did anticipate that they could, and therefore commanded against it (See Duet 12:31).

 

[Dialogos]

No, He made salvation available to everyone.

No, He hasn't tried to save everyone equally or yes He has?

Your answer is a bit confusing...

 

[Bright Raven]

No, he hasn't tried to save everyone equally or yes He has?

Your answer is a bit confusing...

He has made it available to all but not all will accept the gift.

 

[Dialogos]

He has made it available to all but not all will accept the gift.

I see.

So then perhaps you can explain to me how a man who lived in ancient Ecuador who likely participated in some ancestor worshiping idolatrous practice and lived his entire life without ever hearing the name of Jesus and then died in, say, 38 A.D. was given just as much of a chance to believe on Jesus and be saved (John 3:16) as the apostle Peter did.

Did God try to save this ancient Ecuadorian just as much as He tried to save Peter?

 

[meshak]

No, He hasn't tried to save everyone equally or yes He has?

Your answer is a bit confusing...

You don't believe Jesus' salvation is for everyone who believes in Him?

You need to read His word, friend.

John 3:16

 

[Dialogos]

You don't believe Jesus' salvation is for everyone who believes in Him?

You need to read His word, friend.

John 3:16

You need to read my post.

Calvinists have consistently maintained that anyone who believes on Jesus will be saved.

 

[meshak]

You need to read my post.

Then why you have the doctrine of "predestination" which says you don't have free will.

 

[beloved57]

You don't believe Jesus' salvation is for everyone who believes in Him?

You need to read His word, friend.

John 3:16

Reading Jn 3:16 and understanding it are Two different things! Do you understand that scripture?

 

[Brother Ducky]

The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. A stranger they will not follow​

General case here. Sheep follow their shepherd.

I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. ​

Specific case. Jesus as shepherd of the sheep of his fold. Actually, two folds, Jews and Gentiles. [Which would add up to the World.] He dies for his sheep, and his sheep only.

“I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.​

Jesus clearly indicates that not all are his sheep. He dies for his sheep and are granted eternal life. Why do some not listen? Because they recognize the voice of a different shepherd, one that can only lead his sheep to hell.

Now does John 10 teach limited atonement. Of course it does. Just because it does not say “limited atonement” does not mean it is not being taught here.

 

[Puppet]

He has made it available to all but not all will accept the gift.

Why 'available' to those God never drew and given to Jesus. Who invented this "available to the unregenerates"?

 

[Robert Pate]

The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. A stranger they will not follow​

General case here. Sheep follow their shepherd.

I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. ​

Specific case. Jesus as shepherd of the sheep of his fold. Actually, two folds, Jews and Gentiles. [Which would add up to the World.] He dies for his sheep, and his sheep only.

“I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.​

Jesus clearly indicates that not all are his sheep. He dies for his sheep and are granted eternal life. Why do some not listen? Because they recognize the voice of a different shepherd, one that can only lead his sheep to hell.

Now does John 10 teach limited atonement. Of course it does. Just because it does not say “limited atonement” does not mean it is not being taught here.

No it doesn't.

The sheep, which I am one of, are those who have come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him.

You have a perfect example of that in Acts chapter 2.

They heard the Gospel, they believed the Gospel and they were saved, Acts 2:41 and Acts 4:4.

Why is it you cannot believe the truth?

 

[Poly]

Jeremiah 19:5 "...(they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind)..."

Couldn't God have just left this part out? I mean, if the Calvinist is right, then obviously it DID come to mind because He predestined it to come to mind. It was actually "come to mind" since the beginning. Why even mention this false statement?

The Hebrew word "lebab" has the connotation of "heart," It was not God's heart that Israel would do such a thing. That's why the LXX translates the Hebrew word with the Greek word "Kardia."

It does not mean, as you try to contort it to mean, that God couldn't possibly have anticipated that Israel could do such a thing.

In fact, God did anticipate that they could, and therefore commanded against it (See Duet 12:31).

I'm contorting? I'm contorting?

:rotfl:

 

[Brother Ducky]

No it doesn't.

The sheep, which I am one of, are those who have come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him.

You have a perfect example of that in Acts chapter 2.

They heard the Gospel, they believed the Gospel and they were saved, Acts 2:41 and Acts 4:4.

Why is it you cannot believe the truth?

Of course they heard and believed, being appointed to eternal life, given to Christ by the Father.

What were you before being one of Christ's sheep?

 

[Robert Pate]

Of course they heard and believed, being appointed to eternal life, given to Christ by the Father.

What were you before being one of Christ's sheep?

All 8,000 of them? Some of who had participated in the crucifixon of Jesus, Acts 2:36.

Wouldn't it be easier to just believe the truth?

Wakeup Ducky! They heard the Gospel, they believed the Gospel and they were saved. Just like today.

 

[Brother Ducky]

All 8,000 of them? Some of who had participated in the crucifixon of Jesus, Acts 2:36.

Wouldn't it be easier to just believe the truth?

Wakeup Ducky! They heard the Gospel, they believed the Gospel and they were saved. Just like today.

Right, just like today. His sheep hear his voice and follow him. The fact of past sin is not an issue. Those who not his sheep do not follow him. They flee. The number of sheep are not an issue either. 1, 8000 or a Brazilian. All the same to him. His sheep follow. Sheep of the other fellow can not and will not follow Christ.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Jeremiah 19:5 "...(they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind)..."

Couldn't God have just left this part out? I mean, if the Calvinist is right, then obviously it DID come to mind because He predestined it to come to mind. It was actually "come to mind" since the beginning. Why even mention this false statement?

Are you claiming that God says he couldn't have conceived of men engaged in this abomination, or that he didn't conceive of it?

Neither one of these interpretations is sustainable on a simple straightforward reading of the text.

Is it your assertion that God might have authorized this behavior if he had thought of it?

Rather, the statement God makes is plainly that this behavior is so diametrically contrary to the innate justice that characterizes his nature, and to what he had authorized for his worship that he never even weighed the possibility of authorizing or encouraging such behavior in any case whatsoever.

Open theists readily affirm God´s awareness of all knowable things past and present. Surely the open theist must admit that it is impossible for it to be the case that "it never entered God´s mind" that Israel would behave as she did. At the very least, according to open theists, God has known from all eternity that it could happen just as it did.

The passages in Jeremiah refer to the abhorrent practices of local idolatrous pagan communities around Israel. The specific behavior alluded to is the horrible act of Israel burning their children on the altars of pagan gods.

It cannot be denied that this is the behavior God is referring to through His prophet Jeremiah. However, we must note that God warned Israel against this exact sin hundreds of years earlier. Deuteronomy 12:31 warns Israel not to follow after the gods of other nations because "they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods." Later, in Deut. 18:10, God warns Israel that "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire." In light of the reference to "Molech" in Jeremiah 32:35, Moses records in Leviticus 18:21 "You shall not give any of your offspring to offer them to Molech."

Now, can anyone rightly say that these statements in Isaiah accurately reflect an ignorance of God regarding the pagan practice of child sacrifice by fire?

Had God truly never considered this act? Clearly not, since He several times warns them against this very same act hundreds of years prior. These practices simply could not have entered God´s mind for the first time in Jeremiah.

Rather, we must understand that these phrases illustrate the godly hatred God has for this particular sin and the supreme displeasure God has in His children in participating in this sin. God is saying that this behavior is so vile, so wicked, so detestable that He does not want even to consider such a thing as happening, although, as we have seen, He in fact does know about such behavior.

AMR

 

[Dialogos]

I'm contorting? I'm contorting?

:rotfl:

I see, so you think that God is less intelligent than the average human?

If I tell my son not to play with matches its because I can conceive of him burning himself with the matches.

God commanded Israel not to offer their children in the fire and yet you would have us believe that the possibility of doing so was never anticipated by God.

:nono:

Rather, a logical and rational understanding of the word leads us to conclude that God isn't saying that He was ignorant that they might, He is saying that it never was in His heart for them to do it.