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Why are Christians embracing Evolution?

Right Divider

Body part
Genes are my substance.
Genes to not prove your "story".
And, you still have not explained why genetic material can be used to state how closely related two humans are but not two species.
Because there is no proof that one type of creature can "evolve" into another.

Similarity is just that, similarity.

I believe that similarity is based on common design by the same Designer; you believe that similarity indicates common ancestry.

Neither one of us has "absolute proof". We both interpret the data based on our preferred paradigms.

I believe that my paradigm more naturally supports the data.
 

DLH

Member
Not by using JUST the Bible, no.

But the Bible DOES give markers which we can use as reference points for determining the age of the earth. For example, off the top of my head, there's a VERY specific date given in Genesis 7 that tells us exactly when the Flood of Noah's day started:

In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. - Genesis 7:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis7:11&version=NKJV

We can use that verse, and many others, to calibrate our theories.

I would like to see you try. According to the most accurate Bible chronology I can find Adam was created in 4026 BCE and the flood began in 2370.

Go! What you have to do is take the chronology from Adam's creation back to the creation of the earth. The Jehovah's Witnesses tried that by assigning specific times to each creative day and then making the assumption that the seventh day, God's day of rest, would be - I think it was 1975? They don't do that anymore.

Many people don't realize how the timeline of events in the Bible can be, not only calculated but also accurately compared to secular history - as potentially erroneous as that can be, but also through comparisons with extremely reliable astronomical charts of the past. Just from Genesis 5:1-29; 7:6 we can see a period of 1, 656 years, from the creation of Adam to the flood, by adding the ages and births of the people mentioned in those verses.

For example - From Adam's creation to the birth of Seth was 130 years; from then to the birth of Enosh was 105 years; from then to the birth of Kenan was 90 years; from then to the birth of Mahalalel was 70 years: from then to the birth of Jared was 65 years; from then to the birth of Enoch was 162 years; from then to the birth of Methuselah was 65 years; from then to the birth of Lamech was 187 years; from then to the birth of Noah was 182 years; and from then to the Flood was 600 years. A total of 1,656 years.

The Bible's meticulous references to secular historical dates, such as Luke's writings, allows a student of the Bible to pick a date agreed upon by secular history, such as 29 C.E. or 539 B.C.E. and count from Adam to the present day.

BUT

You have no chronology prior to Adam, you have no astronomical charts - you don't even have the notoruiously inaccurate secular history to compare it with. All you have is scientific conjecture, speculation and theory.

Completed, in that God had finished creating something from nothing. No?

Don't know. Scripture? Michael, the angels and the spiritual heavens were created prior to the physical heavens. They aren't the same. What were they made of? Genesis 1:1 is talking about the physical heavens and earth.

There was only God, and then God created, and then there was God and what He created, the universe and matter.

The First Law of Thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, but that energy can be converted to and from matter, and that the amount of energy and matter in the universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to the other.

This would have been established the moment God created the universe. All the laws established, now He can MAKE something out of that matter and energy.


The Law of Thermodynamics was established when? You can't explain mechanical flight until you have it. Science scoffed at it some time after man was in the sky.

Yup. God is now using what he created (completed) to make (incomplete) something.

It sounds to me like you are trying to incorporate the science of men into the word of God which would be fine if you were to establish they were compatible. There is a giant chasm in your attempt as far as I can tell.

Heavens and earth. Not "The Earth."

For clarification, earth is dirt. Soil. The Earth is the planet Earth.

Maybe I will have time to whittle this away gradually, I don't know. I will certainly look it over but I have other responses and a website to build.
 
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Skeeter

Well-known member
Banned
Genes to not prove your "story".

Because there is no proof that one type of creature can "evolve" into another.

Similarity is just that, similarity.

I believe that similarity is based on common design by the same Designer; you believe that similarity indicates common ancestry.

Neither one of us has "absolute proof". We both interpret the data based on our preferred paradigms.

I believe that my paradigm more naturally supports the data.
So, logically you must also believe, for example, a rape victim cannot use DNA from a family member of a rapist as evidence to support recovery from the estate of missing deceased rapist, because similarity is just similarity.
 

DLH

Member
Angels are CREATED BEINGS... are they not?
Have angels always existed... like God? (Hint: no.)

Angels are created beings. Actually, angel means messenger. There are more spirit beings than angels, but I digress. Angels have not always existed, obviously. They existed in the spiritual heavens prior to the creation of the physical heavens, which is obvious by the scripture I gave in which they applaud the creation of the physical heavens.

If you cannot understand something so basic as that... I will not try to help you further.

Well, that was easy. Fair enough, I suppose.
 

Right Divider

Body part
So, logically you must also believe, for example, a rape victim cannot use DNA from a family member of a rapist as evidence to support recovery from the estate of missing deceased rapist, because similarity is just similarity.
Again, we KNOW that BOTH the victim and the rapist are BOTH HUMANS.

Your point is pointless.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Angels are created beings. Actually, angel means messenger. There are more spirit beings than angels, but I digress. Angels have not always existed, obviously. They existed in the spiritual heavens prior to the creation of the physical heavens, which is obvious by the scripture I gave in which they applaud the creation of the physical heavens.
So the creation began before the creation?

The "heavens" where angels "live" is a created place... i.e., part of the creation referred to in Genesis 1:1
Well, that was easy. Fair enough, I suppose.
If you cannot tell why "morning and evening" refers to the rotation of the earth... there is no hope of me explaining it to you.
 

DLH

Member
So the creation began before the creation?


The "heavens" where angels "live" is a created place... i.e., part of the creation referred to in Genesis 1:1

Who was the master worker of Proverbs 8:22-31? (Colossians 1:15-16; Genesis 1:26; 3:21)

If you cannot tell why "morning and evening" refers to the rotation of the earth... there is no hope of me explaining it to you.

[Laughs] No, no, no! You want me to do all the work which I've already done. I've shown where the Hebrew word yohm is used, how the English word day is used in application of various times from a few hours to time indefinite, including how it is used as such in the Creation account. I've asked how long light takes to travel from a distant star to here. I've explained how I think that morning and evening are metaphoric and the Hebrew perfect state in Genesis 1:1 says the creation was complete in that point of the narrative and where the over 40 occurrences of the imperfect state indicate action in progress, confirming that with the different use of the Hebrew words for light in a general sense and the source of light.

Bara, asah, ohr and maohr.

You have the universe being created without light for grass to grow and light traveling from galaxy GN-z11 32.1 billion light years away taking about 6,000 years instead of 13.4 billion years to reach the Hubble Space telescope.

We currently divide the day into just two parts? Morning and evening? I don't think so. How many parts did the ancient Hebrews divide their days into?

When was the sabbath to be observed? From evening to evening. What was in between?

1. The morning twilight (morning darkness) before the daylight; 1 Samuel 30:17

2. The dawn; Job 3:9

3. The morning; Genesis 24:54

4. Noon or midday; Deuteronomy 28:29; 1 Kings 18:27

5. The sunset; Joshua 8:29

6. The evening twilight (evening darkness); 2 Kings 7:7

So, Morning twilight, dawn, morning, noon, sunset, and evening twilight.
 
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Right Divider

Body part
Who was the master worker of Proverbs 8:22-31? (Colossians 1:15-16; Genesis 1:26; 3:21)
Proverbs 8 refers to God's wisdom and understanding (i.e., knowledge).
[Laughs] No, no, no! You want me to do all the work which I've already done. I've shown where the Hebrew word yohm is used, how the English word day is used in application of various times from a few hours to time indefinite, including how it is used as such in the Creation account. I've asked how long light takes to travel from a distant star to here. I've explained how I think that morning and evening are metaphoric and the Hebrew perfect state in Genesis 1:1 says the creation was complete in that point of the narrative and where the over 40 occurrences of the imperfect state indicate action in progress, confirming that with the different use of the Hebrew words for light in a general sense and the source of light.
Referring to "morning and evening" clearly shows that it's talking about an ordinary day and not some metaphorical use of the word.
You have the universe being created without light for grass to grow and light traveling from galaxy GN-z11 32.1 billion light years away taking about 6,000 years instead of 13.4 billion years to reach the Hubble Space telescope.
You make so many assumptions that you cannot prove in any way. You have decided what the text "should mean" instead of just allowing it to mean what it says.
We currently divide the day into just two parts? Morning and evening? I don't think so. How many parts did the ancient Hebrews divide their days into?
"morning and evening" refer to two parts of the day (related to its rotation). That does not exclude there being other parts of the day. That is completely irrelevant. "Morning and evening" are enough to show that it is talking about an ordinary day.
When was the sabbath to be observed? From evening to evening. What was in between?

1. The morning twilight (morning darkness) before the daylight; 1 Samuel 30:17

2. The dawn; Job 3:9

3. The morning; Genesis 24:54

4. Noon or midday; Deuteronomy 28:29; 1 Kings 18:27

5. The sunset; Joshua 8:29

6. The evening twilight (evening darkness); 2 Kings 7:7

So, Morning twilight, dawn, morning, noon, sunset, and evening twilight.
Irrelevant.

I can see why you believe like a JW.
 

DLH

Member
Proverbs 8 refers to God's wisdom and understanding (i.e., knowledge).

....and?

Referring to "morning and evening" clearly shows that it's talking about an ordinary day and not some metaphorical use of the word.

So if I work for you and I tell you that I worked from morning until evening you will pay me for a 24 hour shift?

You make so many assumptions that you cannot prove in any way. You have decided what the text "should mean" instead of just allowing it to mean what it says.

No, you're not thinking about what you are saying without using the Bible because the traditions of men obstruct your view.
 

Leatherneck

Well-known member
Temp Banned
....and?



So if I work for you and I tell you that I worked from morning until evening you will pay me for a 24 hour shift?



No, you're not thinking about what you are saying without using the Bible because the traditions of men obstruct your view.
Why not just let scripture say what it means instead of imposing your notions into scripture ?
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Gen 1:5 - And God called the lightDay, and the darkness he called Night.And the evening and the morning were the first day.
 

JudgeRightly

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I referenced morning and evening as a literal day. Where was that wrong?

It refers to the END of the day, not the whole day.

I am on an iPhone and can’t use the quote feature.

Long pressing and highlighting text doesn't bring up an option to quote?

Then you referenced For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. - Exodus 20:11. Is not morning and evening being the first day -2nd etc. Literal days ?

As above, "evening and morning" is saying that the day is ending, and then after a new day begins.

“Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge? Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.

“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone - while the morning stars sang together and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?" - Job 38:2-7

Heavens came before earth, according to Genesis 1:1. Is it so inconceivable that between God creating the heavens and creating the earth, that he created the angels to exist in the heavens, and then they watched him lay the foundations of the earth?

Why? Explain, please.

Grab a flashlight and a soccer or basketball. Put a small piece of tape on the equator of the ball, point a flashlight at the ball, and rotate the ball.

Follow the tape, from its "daytime" to the evening, to the morning, to the daytime.

"And there was evening, and there was morning, the first day."

I would like to see you try. According to the most accurate Bible chronology I can find Adam was created in 4026 BCE

There's no such thing as "BCE."

It's BC (Before Christ) and AD (anno domini, "In the Year of our Lord")

"BCE" is a made up term made up by atheists to try to avoid referencing Christ.

and the flood began in 2370.

Both wrong.

The date of the beginning of the Flood, to within ±100 years:
The scientific answer:
The Biblical answer:

Go! What you have to do is take the chronology from Adam's creation back to the creation of the earth.

What chronology? Adam is the first man. Just go back by five days.

The Jehovah's Witnesses tried that by assigning specific times to each creative day and then making the assumption that the seventh day, God's day of rest, would be - I think it was 1975? They don't do that anymore.

I have no idea what you're talking about here... But here you go:

Many people don't realize how the timeline of events in the Bible can be, not only calculated but also accurately compared to secular history - as potentially erroneous as that can be, but also through comparisons with extremely reliable astronomical charts of the past. Just from Genesis 5:1-29; 7:6 we can see a period of 1, 656 years, from the creation of Adam to the flood, by adding the ages and births of the people mentioned in those verses.

For example - From Adam's creation to the birth of Seth was 130 years; from then to the birth of Enosh was 105 years; from then to the birth of Kenan was 90 years; from then to the birth of Mahalalel was 70 years: from then to the birth of Jared was 65 years; from then to the birth of Enoch was 162 years; from then to the birth of Methuselah was 65 years; from then to the birth of Lamech was 187 years; from then to the birth of Noah was 182 years; and from then to the Flood was 600 years. A total of 1,656 years.

The Bible's meticulous references to secular historical dates, such as Luke's writings, allows a student of the Bible to pick a date agreed upon by secular history, such as 29 C.E. or 539 B.C.E.

Again, there's no such thing as the "common era."

and count from Adam to the present day.

Or, just use the references I provided above.

BUT

You have no chronology prior to Adam, you have no astronomical charts - you don't even have the notoriously inaccurate secular history to compare it with. All you have is scientific conjecture, speculation and theory.

Incorrect.

We base the date of the flood ±100 years on clocklike comets, to achieve a date of 3290 B.C. ±100 years.
Then from there, based on other things in the Bible and History mentioned in the above link, we arrive at a date for 5532 B.C. ±100 years, with an age of the earth at 7500 ±100 years.

Don't know. Scripture?

Genesis 1.

Michael, the angels and the spiritual heavens were created prior to the physical heavens.

Saying it doesn't make it so, and the most the Bible says about their creation is that they were made before God laid the foundation of the earth. Anything beyond that is speculation, @DLH and @Right Divider.

They aren't the same.

Because you say so?

Satan was physical when he tempted Eve.

What were they made of?

The Bible doesn't say.

Genesis 1:1 is talking about the physical heavens and earth.

On what basis do you assert that spiritual beings cannot exist in a physical universe?

The Law of Thermodynamics was established when? You can't explain mechanical flight until you have it. Science scoffed at it some time after man was in the sky.

I'm not talking about when the law was discovered, DLH. I'm talking about when the law was established. It was established at creation, at the latest.

It sounds to me like you are trying to incorporate the science of men into the word of God which would be fine if you were to establish they were compatible.

And now you're calling into question the first law of thermodynamics.

Is that where you would like to take this?

There is a giant chasm in your attempt as far as I can tell.

Explain.

For clarification, earth is dirt. Soil. The Earth is the planet Earth.

And?

1:1 God created "the heavens and the earth."

1:6-8 God made a firmament in the midst of the waters, and called the firmament "Heaven." The firmament called Heaven is the granite crust of the earth.

1:9-10 God gathered the waters into one place and caused dry land to appear. He called the dry land "Earth."

Maybe I will have time to whittle this away gradually, I don't know. I will certainly look it over but I have other responses and a website to build.

No rush.

[Angels] existed in the spiritual heavens prior to the creation of the physical heavens,

You have not established this.

which is obvious by the scripture I gave in which they applaud the creation of the physical heavens.

No such scripture.

Rather, what it says is that they were there when God laid the foundations of the earth, determined its measurements, stretched the measuring line upon it, laid its cornerstone.

This is not talking about the physical heavens, no matter how you much you insist, because He literally says: "foundations of the earth."

The earth is not the heavens.

Well, that was easy. Fair enough, I suppose.

Indeed.

Who was the master worker of Proverbs 8:22-31? (Colossians 1:15-16; Genesis 1:26; 3:21)



[Laughs] No, no, no! You want me to do all the work which I've already done. I've shown where the Hebrew word yohm are used, how the English word day is used in application of various times from a few hours to time indefinite, including how it is used as such in the Creation account. I've asked how long light takes to travel from a star to here. I've explained how I think that morning and evening are metaphoric and the Hebrew perfect state in Genesis 1:1 says the creation was complete in that point of the narrative and where the over 40 occurrences of the imperfect state indicate action in progress, confirming that with the different use of the Hebrew words for light in a general sense and the source of light.

All of which I addressed in my main post directed to you.

Bara, asah, ohr and maohr.

You have the universe being created without light for grass to grow and light traveling from galaxy GN-z11 32.1 billion light years away taking about 6,000 years instead of 13.4 billion years to reach the Hubble Space telescope.

Addressed in my post.

We currently divide the day into just two parts? Morning and evening?

No one (apart from maybe Leatherneck) has said this.

I don't think so. How many parts did the ancient Hebrews divide their days into?

When was the sabbath to be observed? From evening to evening. What was in between?

1. The morning twilight (morning darkness) before the daylight; 1 Samuel 30:17

2. The dawn; Job 3:9

3. The morning; Genesis 24:54

4. Noon or midday; Deuteronomy 28:29; 1 Kings 18:27

5. The sunset; Joshua 8:29

6. The evening twilight (evening darkness); 2 Kings 7:7

So, Morning twilight, dawn, morning, noon, sunset, and evening twilight.

Irrelevant.
 
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JudgeRightly

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So if I work for you and I tell you that I worked from morning until evening you will pay me for a 24 hour shift?

Still missing the point. Yes, you would not get paid for 24 hours worth of work. But the fact that you worked from morning to evening shows a rotation of the earth. Just like "and there was evening, and there was morning, the first day."

No, you're not thinking about what you are saying without using the Bible because the traditions of men obstruct your view.

This coming from someone who seems to have made up much of his theology...
 

Clete

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There are several problems there. First, the ancient Hebrew verb had two states; the perfect indicating completed action and the imperfect which indicated continuous or incomplete action. At Genesis 1:1 the word bara, translated as created, is in the perfect state, which means that at this point the creation of the heavens and the Earth were completed. Later, as in verse 16 the Hebrew word asah, translated as made, is used, which is in the imperfect state, indicating continuous action. The heavens and Earth were created in verse 1 and an indeterminate time later they were being prepared for habitation, much the same as a bed is manufactured (complete) and made (continuous) afterwards.

The sun and moon as part of the heavens were complete, at this point light had not penetrated to the surface of the Earth. Job 38:4, 9 refers to a "swaddling band" around the Earth in the early stages of creation. Likely there was a cosmic dust cloud of vapor and debris which prevented the light from the sun from being visible on the surface of the earth.

At Genesis 1:3 the Hebrew verb waiyomer (proceeded to say) is in the imperfect state indicating progressive action. This first chapter of Genesis has more than 40 cases of the imperfect state. The creative "days" were a gradual process of making Earth habitable. The light was a diffused light which gradually grew in intensity. Some translations more clearly indicate the progressive action.

The Hebrew word for light, ohr, is used. This distinguishes the light from the source of the light. Later, on the fourth "day" the Hebrew word maohr is used, signifying that the source of the light only becomes visible then through the swaddling band.

At Genesis 1:4 light and darkness is divided between the eastern and western hemispheres as the Earth rotates on its axis.

At Genesis 1:5 the Hebrew word yohm - translated day - indicates the daylight hours, but the term will be applied in the following verses to indicate various lengths of time, including all six days as one day. We use the term "day" in the same way, like this: In those days I worked the day shift 5 days a week. The Hebrew word is used to describe any period of time from a few hours to thousands of years. (Zechariah 14:8; Proverbs 25:13; Psalm 90:4; Isaiah 49:8; Matthew 10:15) Judgement day isn't a literal 24 hours. My grandfather's day doesn't mean he only lived for 24 hours. God's day of rest, the seventh day, was mentioned by David as continuing thousands of years later, and thousands of years after that Paul said the same. The seventh day continues to this day. (Genesis 2:1-3; Isaiah 40:28; John 5:17; Psalm 95:11; Hebrews 4:1-10)

The terms evening and morning are metaphoric. At this point there are no witnesses on Earth to a literal night and day, but there are witnesses in heaven. (Job 38:4, 7) The evening symbolizes the period of time in which the events unfolding were indiscernible to the angels in heaven. The morning symbolizes the period in which the angels could distinguish what had been accomplished. (Proverbs 4:18)

The light at Genesis 1:14 is different from that in verse 3. In verse 3 the Hebrew word ohr is used, meaning the light from the source. Light in a general sense, whereas the light in verse 14 the Hebrew word maohr is used, signifying the source of the light is now visible. See Genesis 1:3

The sun, moon and stars are set as a sign of the seasons, days and years. A most accurate timepiece. The use of the term “sign” is often mistaken as a reference to astrology, which is incorrect.

Genesis 1:16 - The Hebrew waiyaas (proceeded to make), from asah, in verse 16 is different than bara (create) in verses 1, 21 and 27. Asah is the imperfect state indicating progressive action. The luminaries as part of the heavens had already been completed in verse 1, but now they were visible on Earth and prepared for their intended use. Asah can mean make, or appoint (Deuteronomy 15:1), establish (2 Samuel 7:11), form (Jeremiah 18:4), or prepare (Genesis 21:8). Also see Genesis 1:1

The creative days, each of which may have lasted thousands or even millions of years, and had taken place an indeterminate period of time after the creation was complete in verse one, are not indicative of any speculation regarding the age of the Earth and universe. The Bible simply doesn’t say.

Period 1 - Light; a division between night and day (Genesis 1:3-5)

Period 2 - The Expanse; a division between waters above and beneath. (Genesis 1:6-8)

Period 3 - Dry land and vegetation. (Genesis 1:9-13)

Period 4 - Heavenly luminaries become visible from Earth. (Genesis 1:14-19)

Period 5 - Aquatic and flying creatures. (Genesis 1:20-23)

Period 6 - Land animals and man. (Genesis 1:24-31)
It is entirely clear that the bible teaches that the heavens, the earth and everything else was created in six days. It says so EXPLICITLY...

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them....

Exodus 31:17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth....
 

DLH

Member
It is entirely clear that the bible teaches that the heavens, the earth and everything else was created in six days. It says so EXPLICITLY...

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them....

Exodus 31:17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth....

That's an understandable mistake. The Bible sometimes says things that are not true, for example, snakes do not talk. The snake didn't talk. The text does say the snake talked. Because Eve thought it talked. Because Satan tricked her into thinking it talked. It was Satan talking, using the snake as a sort of puppet. The same with Balaam's ass. It appears that Samuel's "spirit" is summoned by the witch of En-dor; the cowardly scouts sent out came back and said the Nephilim were in the land. Both untrue. Sometimes the Bible even gives details of earlier events using references that didn't exist at that time. For example, at Genesis 3:24 the cherubs use a flaming blade of a sword to prevent Adam and Eve from returning. No such thing (sword) existed. At Genesis 2:10-14 the geographical details of Eden are given with reference to one river "to the East of Assyria" when Assyria certainly didn't exist then. But it was familiar to the reader who was reading it much later.

This is why you have to know the entire Bible before you start hacking at it like a blind woodsman.

The Bible seems to say that the heavens and earth were created in 6 days, but it doesn't. It says that the heavens and earth were created and then there were six periods of time where it was being prepared for habitation. That's the complicated argument I've presented which hasn't been successfully refuted. But since no one is going to seriously tackle that what someone needs to do is address what exactly a day is. Does the Bible present the Hebrew word yohm as strictly applying to a literal 24 hours and does the English term day do the same. The answer I've demonstrated is no.

Repeating that it does isn't an argument. Supporting it with scripture isn't even an argument until you establish that they only apply to a literal 24 hours. You can't. Because they don't.
 
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DLH

Member
Still missing the point. Yes, you would not get paid for 24 hours worth of work. But the fact that you worked from morning to evening shows a rotation of the earth. Just like "and there was evening, and there was morning, the first day."

The rotation of the earth isn't in question. The earth doesn't stop rotating. The question is, does it rotate 360° once in 23 hours and 56 minutes or does it rotate once in the average 8 hour workday, which is from morning to evening. Your reasoning is clouded by traditional and faulty doctrine.

This coming from someone who seems to have made up much of his theology...

It doesn't matter if I made it up or Patrick from Sponge Bob Square Pants made it up. The question is, is it accurate? Which can be tested. So test it.
 

Stripe

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That's an understandable mistake. The Bible sometimes says things that are not true, for example, snakes do not talk. The snake didn't talk. The text does say the snake talked. Because Eve thought it talked. Because Satan tricked her into thinking it talked. It was Satan talking, using the snake as a sort of puppet. The same with Balaam's ass. It appears that Samuel's "spirit" is summoned by the witch of En-dor; the cowardly scouts sent out came back and said the Nephilim were in the land. Both untrue. Sometimes the Bible even gives details of earlier events using references that didn't exist at that time. For example, at Genesis 3:24 the cherubs use a flaming blade of a sword to prevent Adam and Eve from returning. No such thing (sword) existed. At Genesis 2:10-14 the geographical details of Eden are given with reference to one river "to the East of Assyria" when Assyria certainly didn't exist then. But it was familiar to the reader who was reading it much later.

This is why you have to know the entire Bible before you start hacking at it like a blind woodsman.

The Bible seems to say that the heavens and earth were created in 6 days, but it doesn't. It says that the heavens and earth were created and then there were six periods of time where it was being prepared for habitation. That's the complicated argument I've presented which hasn't been successfully refuted. But since no one is going to seriously tackle that what someone needs to do is address what exactly a day is. Does the Bible present the Hebrew word yohm as strictly applying to a literal 24 hours and does the English term day do the same. The answer I've demonstrated is no.

Repeating that it does isn't an argument. Supporting it with scripture isn't even an argument until you establish that they only apply to a literal 24 hours. You can't. Because they don't.
If you want to claim that the Bible cannot mean what it plainly says, you have to give good reason.

We claim that the Bible means more than it says when talking about the serpent in the garden. For example, we point to Paul's teaching to show that it was actually the devil talking to Eve, portrayed for whatever reason as a snake.

So we have good reason for a not strictly literal reading in that case.

What is a good reason that "six days" does not mean what it plainly says? Or means more than it plainly says.

Declaring that yohm might not mean a 24 hour period isn't a good reason.
1. It can mean a 24-hour period.
2. Genesis 1 teaches "evening and morning."
 

DLH

Member
It refers to the END of the day, not the whole day

As above, "evening and morning" is saying that the day is ending, and then after a new day begins.

That's actually a very good point. I've never heard that before, and that doesn't happen often, but it still does nothing to make the point. The point being made, I believe, is that the morning and the evening allegedly constitute a literal day. They don't. What you seem to be saying is closer to the morning and evening being metaphorical applications as I mentioned above. Somewhere.

Heavens came before earth, according to Genesis 1:1.

Not necessarily. They are listed that way probably because that is the order they were created, which certainly makes more sense. But there are a spiritual heavens and a physical heavens.

Is it so inconceivable that between God creating the heavens and creating the earth, that he created the angels to exist in the heavens, and then they watched him lay the foundations of the earth?

Not at all. But the Bible distinguishes between a spiritual heavens and a physical heavens. Both were created through the master worker (Michael/Jesus). In the beginning is only the beginning of the creation from the topical perspective of mankind. The physical heavens.

There's no such thing as "BCE."

It's BC (Before Christ) and AD (anno domini, "In the Year of our Lord")

"BCE" is a made up term made up by atheists to try to avoid referencing Christ.

When was Jesus born? When did he become the official messiah? BC and AD come from the Easter table. In the alluvial plains near the ancient city Ur, about the time of Abraham, the worshippers of Astarte, the fertility goddess, dressed select children in their finest and set fire to them. Sacrificing them to fire for the goddess. Then they colored eggs, made bread in the shape of a cross, a phallic symbol of fertility of Astarte that originated with the god Tammuz mentioned in the 8th chapter of Ezekiel. Tammuz was the Sumerian King Dumuzi. Nimrod. His symbol was the filthy idol, as the Bible calls it. We know it as the cross. The cross, hot cross buns, rabbit and eggs. Found painted on ancient earns with the charred remains of children inside. Easter. I'm not impressed.

Why do I prefer BCE and CE? Because Jesus was probably born in October of 2 CE and not baptized until 29 CE. The terms BC and AD have more to do with the shoot of Tammuz than Christ.

The date of the beginning of the Flood, to within ±100 years:
The scientific answer:
The Biblical answer:

We base the date of the flood ±100 years on clocklike comets, to achieve a date of 3290 B.C. ±100 years.
Then from there, based on other things in the Bible and History mentioned in the above link, we arrive at a date for 5532 B.C. ±100 years, with an age of the earth at 7500 ±100 years.

I wish I had time to comb through all of those links. Your own explanation is insufficient to say the least. From my understanding you are suggesting that Adam was created 7,600 years and six days ago? C'mon.

Satan was physical when he tempted Eve.

Explain the logic underlying that conclusion, please?

On what basis do you assert that spiritual beings cannot exist in a physical universe?

I didn't.

And now you're calling into question the first law of thermodynamics.

Is that where you would like to take this?

Actually, I would leave it out because it isn't applicable, you can't take it beyond the point in which the law of thermodynamics could have been established. You can say energy can't be created, like a power plant would, but you can't say that a.) Jehovah, the creator of the universe, didn't create energy in the first place, and b.) it can be stated with any degree of certainty that the Bible was dependent or not upon such a law in the first place. The point is moot.
 
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