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Why are Christians embracing Evolution?
- Thread starter Hobie
- Start date
DLH
Member
The Bible begins with the creation of the universe but the angels existed prior to that in heaven, and besides, man wasn't created until the end of the creation period. You can't logically make the assumption that earth and the universe is only as old as man, don't you think?
Indeed.
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If it does not say that happened between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 it didn’t happen and or God figured it was none of our business. It appears that many, not necessarily you, bow at the altar of science then claim to trust and believe God. I don’t believe based on scripture that anyone can do both and be true to either. We cannot call Jesus Lord and king then follow and believe anything that contradicts scripture and calls God a liar.
DLH
Member
As I pointed out in my earlier post the angels applauded the creation as it was taking place, and the term day can mean any given period of time within a narrative.
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but He rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy (Exodus 20:11). According to scripture the angels were created during the 6 days of creation and did not proceed the creation of the universe.
DLH
Member
No, it's only half. There is also afternoon and night. Besides, as my post pointed out, the term day is used in three different ways in the creation account, in just 2 verses. (Gen. 1:5; 2:4) As six days, as 1 day and as the daylight only. Just like we use the term day. I also gave several scriptures where the term day applies to greater or lesser periods of time depending upon the narrative. How long does Judgement Day last? In Moses' day. Harvest Day.
Derf
Well-known member
While I agree that the time was probably short—one rotation of the earth—it’s circular to define a day by 24 hours, since an hour is defined as 1/24th of a day.
DLH
Member
As you wish, but what about Genesis 2:4 which says creation was one day?
Not by using JUST the Bible, no.
But the Bible DOES give markers which we can use as reference points for determining the age of the earth. For example, off the top of my head, there's a VERY specific date given in Genesis 7 that tells us exactly when the Flood of Noah's day started:
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. - Genesis 7:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis7:11&version=NKJV
We can use that verse, and many others, to calibrate our theories.
Completed, in that God had finished creating something from nothing. No?
There was only God, and then God created, and then there was God and what He created, the universe and matter.
The First Law of Thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, but that energy can be converted to and from matter, and that the amount of energy and matter in the universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to the other.
This would have been established the moment God created the universe. All the laws established, now He can MAKE something out of that matter and energy.
Yup. God is now using what he created (completed) to make (incomplete) something.
Heavens and earth. Not "The Earth."
No.
NOT an "indeterminate time later."
A day later. On day two, God begins making the land on which the creatures he later creates will walk. As of the end of day one, all that exists is the universe and the ball that would become what we call "the Earth," which is covered in water.
An interesting analogy to use, but it doesn't quite work.
A better analogy would be the creation of a lump of clay which you now have in your hands (completed), and then form (incomplete) into a shape.
WRONG.
The Sun, Moon, and stars were created on DAY FOUR. NOT day one.
Again: The Sun, Moon, and stars were created on DAY FOUR. NOT day one.
God created LIGHT, not the Sun, Moon, and stars, on day one. And again, at the beginning of day 2, the earth was formless and void, with nothing but water on the surface of the earth.
Well you're not wrong that Job 38 has a bit to do with the creation, but your conclusion is so far fetched I'm not even sure how you got there, and it seems like you're trying to match scripture to your beliefs, rather than matching your beliefs to scripture.
Here is what the passage says:
Spoiler
I'm gonna say it straight out: Verse 9 does not say what you have suggested that it says.
In fact, it has nothing at all to do with creation, but rather, it has to do with what happened during the Flood.
“Or who shut in the sea with doors, When it burst forth and issued from the womb;When I made the clouds its garment, And thick darkness its swaddling band; - Job 38:8-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job38:8-9&version=NKJV
First off, a bit of background:
"The womb" and "lower parts of the earth" are often used interchangeably throughout scripture, sometimes the womb refers to the lower parts of the earth, and sometimes the opposite. This is one such case.
"Burst forth" is a callback to Genesis 7:11. While it's not the same word used, it's translated the same.
In Genesis 7:11:
| Strong's h1234 - Lexical: בָּקַע - Transliteration: baqa - Part of Speech: Verb - Phonetic Spelling: baw-kah' - Definition: to cleave, break open or through. - Origin: A primitive root; to cleave; generally, to rend, break, rip or open. - Usage: make a breach, break forth (into, out, in pieces, through, up), be ready to burst, cleave (asunder), cut out, divide, hatch, rend (asunder), rip up, tear, win. - Translated as (count): and he split (2), And was broken through (2), so broke through (2), You divided (2), and breaks up (1), and divide it (1), and hatch (1), and I will cause to break forth (1), and invaded it (1), and let us make a gap in its wall (1), and mauled (1), and shall be split (1), and tore (1), and torn (1), and were divided (1), are broken (1), breaks out (1), broke open (1), burst forth (1), Dividing (1), He cuts out (1), He divided (1), he ripped open (1), He split (1), he who splits (1), it is ready to burst (1), rip open (1), ripped open (1), shall break forth (1), shall burst forth (1), shall tear down (1), shall tear them (1), so split (1), so that split (1), so they split (1), split open (1), that has been breached (1), that split apart (1), they are torn (1), they hatch (1), they ripped open (1), to break through (1), to win them over (1), was penetrated (1), were broken up (1), were dashed in pieces (1), will split (1). |
In Job 38:8:
| Strong's h1518 - Lexical: גּיחַ - Transliteration: giach - Part of Speech: Verb - Phonetic Spelling: ghee'-akh - Definition: to burst forth. - Origin: Or (shortened) goach {go'-akh}; a primitive root; to gush forth (as water), generally to issue. - Usage: break forth, labor to bring forth, come forth, draw up, take out. - Translated as (count): and Bursting forth (1), and labor to bring forth (1), burst forth (1), gushes (1), He who took Me (1), when it burst forth (1). |
The latter being more appropriate for a womb...
Second: What does this sound like to you:
God shut in the sea with doors, but then it burst forth, and God made the clouds it's garment, and it was swaddled by darkness.
How about if I word it this way?
God created the crust of the earth in the midst of the waters, encasing the deep in a shell deep below the crust of the earth, and after several centuries, all the fountains of the great deep broke forth, launching the waters stored beneath the crust up through the atmosphere and into space.
Would you agree or disagree that that's a much better fit than "Likely there was a cosmic dust cloud of vapor and debris which prevented the light from the sun from being visible on the surface of the earth"?
Because what I described above is actually what happened.
More at https://creationscience.com/onlinebook
Yes, because God was making, not creating. He was forming what he had created.
Agreed, but there's no need for the quotation marks around days. Evening and morning, six times. Six days of creation. As Moses writes:
For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. - Exodus 20:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus20:11&version=NKJV
Saying it doesn't make it so, and scripture says otherwise.
God said let there be light. And then he divided the light from the darkness. He called the light day, and the darkness He called night. "And there was evening, and there was morning, the first day."
That's how the Bible describes the first day, and then uses the same phrase, "evening and morning" to indicate the passage of time for the next five days following.
There's no "diffused light which gradually grew in intensity." Light did not exist, and then God spoke it into existence, and then He divided it from the darkness.
Irrelevant.
No.
The way it's worded doesn't allow for this interpretation.
"God said, 'Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens...' and it was so."
God made the stars in the heavens at that point. Not before.
Yup, A FULL THREE DAYS BEFORE God made the lights in the heavens (stars and the Sun and Moon).
Let me simplify this for you, because you're providing an interpretation, then bringing up prooftexts to support that interpretation. That's called eisegesis, and it's a terrible way to study the Bible.
Exegesis is where you look at what the Bible says, and then form your beliefs based on what it says.
Here is Strong's Concordance for Yom:
Spoiler
Using this, we can see that while it has a variety of meanings and usages, if we were to go to each one of those instances, we would quickly realize that the context of each of those uses determines what it means, and that the meaning is very clearly identifiable. What the Bible shows is that the meaning of the Hebrew word yowm is ALWAYS determined by the context (just as it is in English).
In Genesis 1:5, therefore, based on the context of not only the surrounding verses, but including Exodus 20:11 and Mark 10:6, we can see that Moses clearly meant "day" as the end of one literal day and the beginning of the next literal day, emphasized by the fact that he called the "evening and morning" "the first day.," or more literally, "day, the first."
Saying it doesn't make it so.
A metaphor is a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else, especially something abstract.
So, if it's a metaphor, what does it represent? What is it symbolic of? That's a serious question.
Does your answer fit within the context of Genesis 1:5? Be honest. If it doesn't, then you're probably wrong.
I assert that "evening and morning" are NOT metaphorical, but are actually describing the rotation of the earth, as a viewer on the earth would experience it, a darkening of the sky as the viewer's position moves away from the light and into the dark side of the earth, and then back into the light 12 hours later.
So the Spirit of God hovering over the face of the waters in verse 2 isn't a Witness?
And so what? That doesn't mean there wasn't an evening and morning... You're making an argument from silence.
It honestly sounds like you're making this up as you go.
There is nothing in either Job 38:4 OR 7 that indicates what you said, and Proverbs 4:18 has nothing at all to do with anything to do with anything at all to do with the creation week.
In other words, to answer the question I ask you above, NO, the meaning you have come up with for the supposed metaphor you say exists in 1:5 DOES NOT fit the context of Genesis 1:5, nor the other five verses.
Supra.
So is the rotation of the earth. No? Especially for things that don't require multiple days to notice a change in.
Supra.
Begging the question is a logical fallacy, and the Bible doesn't support your premise to begin with, as I showed above.
In other words: NO, the "luminaries" were created on day four, not day one, as the Bible clearly states.
Supra.
:yawn:
Saying it doesn't make it so, and I have already shown otherwise.
Jesus said:
But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.” - Mark 10:6-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark10:6-9&version=NKJV
"From the beginning of the creation." DLH. Not, "millions of years after the beginning of the creation."
I have no issues with "periods" 3, 5, and 6.
The BIBLE however, has a problem with your "periods" 1, 2, and 4.
Here's a better summary, which more closely matches what the Bible says:
Day 1: God creates the heavens, the earth, darkness was over the face of the deep, the Spirit of God hovers over the face of the waters, then God created light.
Day 2-3: God made a firmament to divide the waters above from the waters below (the deep), called the firmament (crust) "Heaven." [end of day 2, beginning of day 3] He made dry land appear, and the water he called Seas, and the dry land He called Earth. He made grasses, herbs that yield seed, and fruit trees that yield fruit.
Day 4: God created the Sun, Moon, and stars, and set them to be for signs, seasons, and for days and years. He set them in the sky (firmament of the heavens).to give light on the earth and rule over the day and over the night and divide the light from the darkness.
Day 5: God made aquatic animals and birds
Day 6: God made land animals and man.
Day 7: God ceased creating.
The Bible gives reference points which we can use to determine when something in the Bible occurred. Then it's a matter of analyzing history and the evidence we have to determine the rest.
What we don't (automatically) buy into is the opinions of those who reject that God created the universe and everything in it.
By the evidence, and not by what atheists claim the evidence suggests.
"Science" is just a tool for us to use to learn about God's creation. What atheists do with it is besides the point.
In other words, there's nothing wrong with "science." There's plenty wrong with what atheists CLAIM to be science, but actually is not.
Because it is.
See https://kgov.com/starlight for an in depth answer. Unfortunately, I don't know how to summarize it in a small enough nutshell to post here.
However old humanity is, the universe is only five days older, six at most.
See my quote of Jesus above for proof.
:thumb:
It won't be destroyed by God? (See Revelation)
That was before the Fall of Man. God WILL create a new heaven and a new earth for man to live in. He said so Himself.
And you would be wrong, for the reasons I stated above.
Agreed.
All we know about when the angels were created was that they were created before God laid the foundations of the earth, which is, surprisingly enough, mentioned in Job 38:4-7.
In other words, while we don't know when exactly God made them, we know that they existed by the end of Day One.
In other words, saying that "the angels existed prior to [the creation of the universe] in heaven" is going beyond what scripture says. Could they have been? Sure. But the Bible doesn't indicate any specific point when the angels were created, so it's best to not get more specific than "before God laid the foundations of the earth."
Which Jesus said was at the beginning of the creation. And yes, "creation" there is a noun, not a verb, referring to the entirety of what was created. Day Six is from the beginning of the creation (noun). What Jesus said is true. Therefore, there is no room for anything other than 6 literal days in Genesis 1.
It's not an assumption. It's what the Bible, and more importantly, what Jesus says.
You're forgetting that the ancient Hebrew culture kept time a bit differently than we do today. Today, we have our days starting and ending at midnight, the darkest part of the night, with the sun on the opposite side of the earth. However, Hebrew culture starts the day in the morning, around 6 am. Thus, "evening and morning" is not describing a full rotation of the earth, but rather, the ending of the previous day. This also applies to when the year starts: we start it in the dead of winter, while the Hebrew calendar (one of them, at least) starts in spring. (Side note: This is probably what God intended from the beginning, as "Spring, summer, autumn, winter" describes the cycle of life, that being New birth, life, aging life, and death, followed by the start of the next cycle being rebirth, while "second half of winter, spring, summer, first half of winter" doesn't really convey that at all.)
In other words, you're both wrong, though, Leatherneck is less so.
And as THIS post points out, to say, "because there are multiple meanings for the word "day" in scripture therefore "day" in genesis 1:5 and other verses cannot mean a literal 24 hour day" is not only special pleading, but also a non-sequitur. Yom does in fact have the meaning of a literal day, and that the context determines which meaning is used, and that the context of Genesis 1:5 and other verses in Genesis 1, determines that the word used, in Genesis 1:5 and others similar to that verse, means a literal day.
It doesn't call it "one day." It uses day FIGURATIVELY to refer to the six LITERAL days of the creation week in the previous chapter. Just like we have the phrase "back in the day", which is a figure of speech, so too is "in the day that the Lord God made the heavens and the earth."
(Note: "made" NOT "created")
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I referenced morning and evening as a literal day. Where was that wrong ? I am on an iPhone and can’t use the quote feature. Then you referenced For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. - Exodus 20:11. Is not morning and evening being the first day -2nd etc. Literal days ?
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No, it does NOT.
Similarities do NOT, ipso facto, imply a descendant relationship.
Saying that it does is simply confirmation bias.
False. But thanks for playing.
You can believe that nonsense but you also have to live with the consequences of calling God a liar, sadly.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
In what way does mapping the human genome and comparing it with other animals corroborate evolution?
You are an amazing gymnast, but for all our sakes, I hope you forego the tights.