ECT Who is saved?

[Faither]

1. Because Paul said to believe on Christ is how one is saved today, and also

2. Paul said that salvation is not of works.

Ergo, believing is not, and cannot be, a work.

Really simple when you set aside your agenda and just believe what it says.

So "believing" isn't a work , even though its done with an expectation of something in return (thus being paid for your work). But surrendering our lives to Him "is' a work even though if done correctly leaves no life available to recieve any expectation of payment .

And i won't even get into the millions of people before the 1500's that could never be exposed to "Gods Word to believe in".

What saves us with Gods Word should have been able to save without Gods Word too.

Believing isn't it surrendering is.

 

[Faither]

1. Because Paul said to believe on Christ is how one is saved today, and also

2. Paul said that salvation is not of works.

Ergo, believing is not, and cannot be, a work.

Really simple when you set aside your agenda and just believe what it says.

As for "my" agenda you could be right. Maybe it's just me that wants to persuade you , not God Himself.

But i do it anyway , for you.

 

[musterion]

So "believing" isn't a work

Are you stupid?

Paul said salvation is by faith and absolutely not of works.

Belief is thereby excluded as a work.

Do you not understand this?

 

[oatmeal]

Yes, the gospel was for the Jew first then the Gentile.



I would suggest that is not he case. Look at what the BIBLE calls baptism with the Holy Spirit that John mentions. You will see it only happened twice and in each case it was a special situation.






Those on Pentecost, where they saved by the law or the gospel or something else?

Jesus' ministry was to lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The baptism in pneuma hagion was the one time event on the day of Pentecost to the twelve. After that the giving of pneuma hagion is referred to as baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

They were saved by grace. The revelation of what they now had from God would be revealed gradually. Eventually God would give Paul the revelation to write it all down

 

[oatmeal]

We must distinguish between the believing that Jesus Christ did to earn our redemption and salvation from the believing we did, not to earn our salvation, but to simply receive the gift that was earned for us

 

[musterion]

Faith in no way 'earns' salvation. That would indeed turn faith/belief into a work...a labor that deserves a just wage or reward. But that's not how grace works.

 

[Tambora]

But just for fun , explain to me how "believing" escapes the "works" category.

I'll set scripture tell ya.

Romans 5 KJV
(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


HINT: That one ain't you.
By the righteousness and obedience of one, Christ.
Not by the righteousness and obedience of two, you + Christ.

It's not the law that we are to put our faith in, it is the lawgiver.

 

[God's Truth]

Faith in no way 'earns' salvation. That would indeed turn faith/belief into a work...a labor that deserves a just wage or reward. But that's not how grace works.

Faith is obeying what Jesus says to do. Which proves your faith and no works is doubly erred.

 

[Faither]

Are you stupid?

Paul said salvation is by faith and absolutely not of works.

Belief is thereby excluded as a work.

Do you not understand this?

Salvation isn't by faith the noun "pistis", in the Greek. Salvation is by the application of Faith ,'pisteuo" in the Greek.
Vines :"A personal surrender to Him , and a life inspired by such surrender ".

Believing in gods word doesn't cut it.

Every time Paul is quoted as using believe, believe , and believing in the NT , he is using the Greek word pisteuo.

You should replace your name calling with truth , it feels really good.

 

[Tambora]

Believing" is something you do with an expectation of something in return , correct?

No.
Believing that 2+2=4 won't even get ya a cup of coffee.

 

[God's Truth]

We must distinguish between the believing that Jesus Christ did to earn our redemption and salvation from the believing we did, not to earn our salvation, but to simply receive the gift that was earned for us

The gift is to children of God, it is the REWARD of an inheritance of eternal life.

Jesus and Paul say the same thing.

Colossians 3:23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism.


You all are afraid to obey Jesus and blame it on Paul is beyond pathetic.

Paul was a Pharisee and taught people to obey the ceremonial works as the Jews did for over 1,600 years and it was called the works of the law. Those works justified people and those are the works that Paul was saying that no longer save.

It is the most bizarre thing ever to hear Christians say they did not obey Jesus but just believed to get saved. It is where the false Calvin doctrine comes from because they preach the ultimate do nothing to get saved, not even believe.

 

[musterion]

Believing in gods word doesn't cut it.

Oh.

 

[Right Divider]

I've thought about this overnight. Are you implying souls added to the church were not saved?

I'm implying that the language used it definitely future tense.

 

[Right Divider]

This isn't adding up for me. The gospel that can save was preached by the prophets? Please clarify.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

You're confusing the various "salvation's" in the Bible.

Luke 1:66-73 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:66) And all they that heard [them] laid [them] up in their hearts, saying, What manner of child shall this be! And the hand of the Lord was with him. (1:67) And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, (1:68) Blessed [be] the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, (1:69) And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; (1:70) As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: (1:71) That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; (1:72) To perform the mercy [promised] to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; (1:73) The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, ​

 

[Danoh]

So "believing" isn't a work , even though its done with an expectation of something in return (thus being paid for your work). But surrendering our lives to Him "is' a work even though if done correctly leaves no life available to recieve any expectation of payment .

And i won't even get into the millions of people before the 1500's that could never be exposed to "Gods Word to believe in".

What saves us with Gods Word should have been able to save without Gods Word too.

Believing isn't it surrendering is.

You completely ignored what Musti said - which is clearly asserted (exactly as he simply laid it out) in Romans 4.

Your argument, then is not actually with those who view this as Musti so simply laid it out; your argument is actually with, and against, Romans 4.

Romans 5:8.

 

[Danoh]

I'm implying that the language used it definitely future tense.

And you are definitely, off-base.

Romans 5:8.

 

[Danoh]

No.
Believing that 2+2=4 won't even get ya a cup of coffee.

Not if that that 2+2 makes $4.

That'll buy you a medium cup of coffee and two donuts at Dunk'n Donuts :chuckle:

(Great coffee; lousy donuts, though)

 

[turbosixx]

Jesus' ministry was to lost sheep of the house of Israel.

While he was on earth, yes. The Jews were the ones looking for the Messiah and had the scriptures to confirm who he was. The gospel is to the Jew first.

Before he left earth, he sent the apostles out to all nations.
Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

The baptism in pneuma hagion was the one time event on the day of Pentecost to the twelve. After that the giving of pneuma hagion is referred to as baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

You're making a claim here without scripture backing. Could you please show me the scriptures that lead you to this conclusion.

Here's my claim. It wasn't a one time event, it happened one other time. Cornelius received the Holy Spirit just as the apostles did.
Acts 11:15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning.

I suggest the way people received gifts of the Holy Spirit other than these two unique situations is by the laying of the apostles hands.
Acts 8: 18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,
2 Tim. 1:6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands,



If you mean we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit being forgiveness of sins, seal of being in Christ at baptism, I agree with that.

They were saved by grace. The revelation of what they now had from God would be revealed gradually. Eventually God would give Paul the revelation to write it all down

I agree. I know of no other way man can be saved other than by the grace of God.

 

[turbosixx]

I'm implying that the language used it definitely future tense.

I agree. Paul uses the same Greek word and then tells them IF making it conditional. It's present and future as long as they hold fast the word.

1 Cor. 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you — unless you believed in vain.

 

[oatmeal]

One has to obey and confess and repent of those sins. You can't get out of it. You have to obey to be saved. Obeying isn't evil as you have twisted it to be.

Where did I refer to obedience as evil?

No wonder you are so far off concerning so many scriptural truths, you read into what you read whatever suits you, not what is actually written

In order to receive salvation, you have to obey Romans 10:9

1. confess with your mouth the lord Jesus

2. believe in your heart God raised him from the dead.


Where does it say you have to confess your sins to be saved?

Can you remember all of your sins? You cannot, it is impossible.

You confess the savior from sin, the lord Jesus.

I John 1:9 speaks of being cleansed from sin by the blood of Jesus Christ, but I John is for the education of those who are already saved and have eternal life. I John 5:13

No one can have fellowship with the saints and with the Father and with His son until they are sons of God by receiving salvation.