ECT Who is saved?

[Right Divider]

I was hoping you would explain why it has nothing to do with Israel.

I'm not trying to make it anything. I just want to understand what it says and this is what it says.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
Who are the two made one? I believe it's Jew and Gentile.

Both are made one apart from Israel. Neither Jew NOR Greek, remember? Galatians 3:28

19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
They are no longer aliens, who were they alienated from? Verse 12 says Israel.

No longer without God.

Did you miss that Israel had fallen? Why would anyone what to be joined to that?

Rom 11:11 (AKJV/PCE)​

(11:11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. ​

Don't skip all of those verses in between like they don't exist.

Eph 2:13-18 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.(2:14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us]; (2:15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace; (2:16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (2:17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (2:18) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
​

Made nigh by the BLOOD..... not a covenant or a nation.... reconciled both unto God in one body BY THE CROSS.

It's one NEW man and not Gentiles joining something old.

2Cor 5:16-17 (AKJV/PCE)​

(5:16) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. (5:17) Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he][ is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
​

We are "now henceforth" to know no man, including Christ, "after the flesh". In the flesh, Jesus was a minister of the circumcision (Rom 15:8).

Who are they fellow citizens with?

All believers, "fellowcitizens with the saints".

 

[turbosixx]

Both are made one apart from Israel. Neither Jew NOR Greek, remember? Galatians 3:28

Galatians 3 is once they are in. Before they are in, what two groups are they?

 

[Right Divider]

Galatians 3 is once they are in. Before they are in, what two groups are they?

That's all you have after that lengthy explanation?

 

[turbosixx]

Don't skip all of those verses in between like they don't exist.

Eph 2:13-18 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.(2:14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us]; (2:15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace; (2:16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (2:17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (2:18) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
​

I know they exist.
What did the law of commandments separate? The two groups.

Made nigh by the BLOOD..... not a covenant or a nation.... reconciled both unto God in one body BY THE CROSS.

His death, blood, establish the new covenant that he is mediator of.
Heb. 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

It's one NEW man and not Gentiles joining something old.

2Cor 5:16-17 (AKJV/PCE)​

(5:16) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. (5:17) Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he][ is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
​

We are "now henceforth" to know no man, including Christ, "after the flesh". In the flesh, Jesus was a minister of the circumcision (Rom 15:8).


All believers, "fellowcitizens with the saints".

I agree we are to know no one according to the flesh anymore, there is Christian and everyone else.

 

[turbosixx]

That's all you have after that lengthy explanation?

If you won't say who you see as the two groups, no amount of discussion will matter.

 

[Right Divider]

I know they exist.
What did the law of commandments separate? The two groups.

Those under the law (Jews and Gentiles) and those without the law (far away Gentiles).

His death, blood, establish the new covenant that he is mediator of.
Heb. 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

The new covenant is between God and Israel. See Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8.

The body of Christ gets the blood without any covenant.

I agree we are to know no one according to the flesh anymore, there is Christian and everyone else.

For now... when the body is removed (caught away).... things will be different.

 

[turbosixx]

Those under the law (Jews and Gentiles) and those without the law (far away Gentiles).

So if I understand you correctly. You will divide up the NT based on who it's addressed to but when God established a covenant with Israel and set them apart the only reason all the Gentiles weren't part of it was because they were far away?

Ex. 19:1 On the third new moon after the people of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that day they came into the wilderness of Sinai. 2 They set out from Rephidim and came into the wilderness of Sinai, and they encamped in the wilderness. There Israel encamped before the mountain, 3 while Moses went up to God. The Lord called to him out of the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the people of Israel: 4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; 6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel.”

It's starting to make sense why we can't agree.

 

[turbosixx]

The body of Christ gets the blood without any covenant.

That would be a first.

Are you saying there are no commandments for the body?

 

[Right Divider]

So if I understand you correctly. You will divide up the NT based on who it's addressed to but when God established a covenant with Israel and set them apart the only reason all the Gentiles weren't part of it was because they were far away?

Ex. 19:1 On the third new moon after the people of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that day they came into the wilderness of Sinai. 2 They set out from Rephidim and came into the wilderness of Sinai, and they encamped in the wilderness. There Israel encamped before the mountain, 3 while Moses went up to God. The Lord called to him out of the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the people of Israel: 4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; 6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel.”

It's starting to make sense why we can't agree.

Firstly, I didn't says ALL the Gentiles, you made that up.

Far away doesn't refer to physical distance. It's a term used in the Bible to refer to heathen Gentiles.

The NT and the NC are not synonymous BTW.

I divide the Bible between prophecy (God's dealings on the earth through Israel) and mystery (something revealed to us through God's revelations to Paul about a body with a heavenly calling).

 

[Right Divider]

That would be a first.

So?

Are you saying there are no commandments for the body?

I depends on what you mean by that.

Paul says that we are not under the law. But Israel certainly was.

 

[turbosixx]

Firstly, I didn't says ALL the Gentiles, you made that up.

Sorry if I read that in there but the way it was worded, both Jew and Gentile were under law.

Paul says the Gentiles who do not have the law.

Really the law is not what set the people apart it was being a descendant of Abraham and the covenant of circumcision. The law was added because of transgressions but it was to the people Israel whom God had set apart from everyone else.

The NT and the NC are not synonymous BTW.

I would like to hear a brief explanation.

I believe they are because it's about Christ who shed his blood for the new covenant.

I divide the Bible between prophecy (God's dealings on the earth through Israel) and mystery (something revealed to us through God's revelations to Paul about a body with a heavenly calling).

I divide it here.
Heb. 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

 

[turbosixx]

I depends on what you mean by that.

Paul says that we are not under the law. But Israel certainly was.

Yes, Israel was and that's the law Paul says we're not under. Paul says he is not outside of the law of God but under the law of Christ.

1 Cor. 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

Paul gives us commandments from Christ.
1 Thessalonians 4:1 Finally, then, brothers, we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, just as you are doing, that you do so more and more. 2 For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus.

Do we have an option to follow his instructions if we are not under law?

 

[DAN P]

That would be a first.

Are you saying there are no commandments for the body?

Hi and read Rom 13:8-10 !!

So why does Paul not mention the first 3 commandments , is because we , believers have God dwelling in out bodies !!

dan p

 

[Right Divider]

Sorry if I read that in there but the way it was worded, both Jew and Gentile were under law.

Paul says the Gentiles who do not have the law.

In both cases, there are Jews and Gentiles.

Under the laws that was given to Israel, Gentiles could join with Israel if the would follow the law.

Then Gentiles that did not have the law were the "far away" Gentiles that were "on their own" and without God.

Really the law is not what set the people apart it was being a descendant of Abraham and the covenant of circumcision. The law was added because of transgressions but it was to the people Israel whom God had set apart from everyone else.

Okay...

I would like to hear a brief explanation.

I believe they are because it's about Christ who shed his blood for the new covenant.

Once again, you're completely ignoring what Jeremiah 31 says and what Hebrew 8 repeats.

The new covenant in the Bible contains TWO crystal clear parties: God and Israel (two houses that will be joined when Christ returns).

I divide it here.
Heb. 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

And that's why you're so confused. You've completely missed the mystery given to Paul and instead mashed it together with that which must be understood separately.

Why can't God do something on the earth and also something in heaven?

Even these TWO will eventually be JOINED IN HIM.

Eph 1:10 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: ​

 

[Right Divider]

Yes, Israel was and that's the law Paul says we're not under. Paul says he is not outside of the law of God but under the law of Christ.

1 Cor. 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

Paul gives us commandments from Christ.
1 Thessalonians 4:1 Finally, then, brothers, we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, just as you are doing, that you do so more and more. 2 For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus.

Do we have an option to follow his instructions if we are not under law?

I'm still now sure where you're trying to go with this.

Law or no law, people should always do what's right. Was it wrong when Cain murdered Able even though the law was not given yet?

 

[turbosixx]

is because we , believers have God dwelling in out bodies !!

dan p

I agree.

 

[turbosixx]

In both cases, there are Jews and Gentiles.

Under the laws that was given to Israel, Gentiles could join with Israel if the would follow the law.

Then Gentiles that did not have the law were the "far away" Gentiles that were "on their own" and without God.


Okay...


Once again, you're completely ignoring what Jeremiah 31 says and what Hebrew 8 repeats.

The new covenant in the Bible contains TWO crystal clear parties: God and Israel (two houses that will be joined when Christ returns).


And that's why you're so confused. You've completely missed the mystery given to Paul and instead mashed it together with that which must be understood separately.

Why can't God do something on the earth and also something in heaven?

Even these TWO will eventually be JOINED IN HIM.

Eph 1:10 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: ​

Again, I think we're going to have to acknowledge we see things differently.

I'm curious what you think about the muslims having a mosque on the temple mount now for over 1,300 years and not having a temple for almost 2,000?

 

[Right Divider]

Again, I think we're going to have to acknowledge we see things differently.

What part do you disagree with?

I'm curious what you think about the muslims having a mosque on the temple mount now for over 1,300 years and not having a temple for almost 2,000?

What about it?

Israel has fallen. So until God catches away the body of Christ and begins with His restoration of Israel.... I don't think that a temple matters.

Rom 11:11-12 (AKJV/PCE)​

(11:11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. (11:12) Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

​

That is talking about the restoration of Israel and so is this:

Rom 11:25 (AKJV/PCE)​

(11:25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. ​

 

[God's Truth]

What part do you disagree with?


What about it?

Israel has fallen. So until God catches away the body of Christ and begins with His restoration of Israel.... I don't think that a temple matters.

Rom 11:11-12 (AKJV/PCE)​

(11:11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. (11:12) Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

​

What is talking about the restoration of Israel and so is this:

Rom 11:25 (AKJV/PCE)​

(11:25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. ​

That scripture is about what has already happened.

 

[steko]

That scripture is about what has already happened.

:nono: