Re: Answered JustAChristian?
Re: Answered JustAChristian?
Re: Answered JustAChristian?
What do I deny?
Where Does The Bible Say...? (HOF thread)
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JustAChristian
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Does the context of Romans 9...
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Then it is obvious that an inspired apostle of Christ did not understand that repentance comes after salvation, when he preached on Pentecost for them to "Repent and be baptized for (in order to) the remission of sins", if repentance comes after or as a result of grace and salvation. You need to sustain your premise with a scriptural passage. I have mine here: "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death."-- 2 Cor. 7:10. Also, I do affirm that salvation is by grace through faith. However it is not by grace that we live in repentance. God does not cause us to remain in repentance but gives us free will to act as we so desire.
JustAChristian
Re: Re: Re: Re: Does the context of Romans 9...
Then it is obvious that an inspired apostle of Christ did not understand that repentance comes after salvation, when he preached on Pentecost for them to "Repent and be baptized for (in order to) the remission of sins", if repentance comes after or as a result of grace and salvation. You need to sustain your premise with a scriptural passage. I have mine here: "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death."-- 2 Cor. 7:10. Also, I do affirm that salvation is by grace through faith. However it is not by grace that we live in repentance. God does not cause us to remain in repentance but gives us free will to act as we so desire.
JustAChristian
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Aimiel
Well-known member
The Bible says that every good and perfect gift comes from above. I don't believe that anyone has anything that's worth keeping that didn't come from God. He gives the measure of faith to every man, and that would include their 'initial' beliefs. We wouldn't even come to Him, except He draw us. We wouldn't believe that He existed, except He gives us the faith to do so.
JustAChristian
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Re: Re: Answered JustAChristian?
Re: Re: Answered JustAChristian?
Here, you affirm that you have been baptized in the Holy Spirit. I deny that to be true. Jesus does not baptize anyone today with the Holy Spirit. The purpose of Holy Spirit baptism was to give power to the apostles to do their work...
"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." Acts 1:8
...and to show the Jews that Gentiles were accepted into the fellowship of Christians...
"And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them (the Gentile family of Cornelius, JAC), as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?" Acts 11:15-17
Further, you deny that water baptism has nothing to do with remission of sins. You fail to understand and accept Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; or 1 Peter 3:21 all of which teach remission of sins, cleansing of sins and salvation from sins through water baptism.
You are correct to say that Christ's blood cleansing and takes away sins, but at what point and where has God made the seperation? It is in baptism for the remission of sins.
JustAChristian :angel:
Re: Re: Answered JustAChristian?
Here, you affirm that you have been baptized in the Holy Spirit. I deny that to be true. Jesus does not baptize anyone today with the Holy Spirit. The purpose of Holy Spirit baptism was to give power to the apostles to do their work...
"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." Acts 1:8
...and to show the Jews that Gentiles were accepted into the fellowship of Christians...
"And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them (the Gentile family of Cornelius, JAC), as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?" Acts 11:15-17
Further, you deny that water baptism has nothing to do with remission of sins. You fail to understand and accept Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; or 1 Peter 3:21 all of which teach remission of sins, cleansing of sins and salvation from sins through water baptism.
You are correct to say that Christ's blood cleansing and takes away sins, but at what point and where has God made the seperation? It is in baptism for the remission of sins.
JustAChristian :angel:
Aimiel
Well-known member
Re: Re: Re: Answered JustAChristian?
Re: Re: Re: Answered JustAChristian?
Re: Re: Re: Answered JustAChristian?
Then why were others baptized, and not just the twelve?
Then why aren't the Jews of today seeing this and repenting. Did God simply respect first-century Jews more than those of today? Has He forgotten how to baptize people with The Holy Ghost? Did He take back The Gift that He gave? Is it because we're not good enough?
Well, what are you, JaC, that YOU withstand God? If He chooses to fill with His Holy Spirit someone who has been sprinkled, dunked or (Heaven forbid) not baptized at all, why should you resist The Hand of God? Do you enjoy the idea of possibly waking up one day and desiring to tear off your clothes and crawl around in your yard and eat grass? Don't you see the handwriting on the wall? You're 'holier-than-thou' attitude is hated by God, and you have become a stench in His Nose!!! :nono:
JustAChristian
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Answered JustAChristian?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Answered JustAChristian?
Aimiel
I am happy to answer your questions.
As I have pointed out, the only other than the twelve that received the baptism with the Holy Spirit was the household of Cornelius (Acts 10) some ten years after Pentecost. You will find no evidence or implication that anyone else was baptized. The apostles did convey the Spirit with the laying on of their hands on many but that was not baptism with the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:14-17; 19:1-6). Can you see the Ethiopian eunuch of Acts 8 having received Holy Spirit baptism? Do you even see or understand if he even knew anything about Holy Spirit baptism? Find someone in the New Testament that received Holy Spirit baptism for the remission of sins or for salvation and I have no argument.
“Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.� (Isaiah 6:10 AV)
“In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. (2 Corinthians 4:4 AV)
These two verses show plainly that the Jews as a whole would not hear the gospel of Christ. They had hardened their hearts to the gospel. Why? For many reasons. Jesus was not their image of Messiah was the primary reason, I believe. However, a remnant did accept Christ in the first century and continued to accept throughout history and today.
It is not my intent to present a "holier-than-thou" attitude. I didn't think that was what I may have conveyed. I appreciate your question, but may I ask you, Who in the NT or OT has God filled with the Holy Spirit that was not first of all His spiritual child? Do you not imply that God puts the Spirit in those that He chooses in order that He may save them. Is that not right? If that is your understanding then what is the purpose of preaching the gospel? (Read Romans 1:16; Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16). Again, I request that you or anyone to show one convert to Christ that was baptized with the Holy Spirit in order to be saved. Show us one and I have no argument.
InChrist,
JustAChristian
Re: Re: Re: Re: Answered JustAChristian?
Aimiel
I am happy to answer your questions.
As I have pointed out, the only other than the twelve that received the baptism with the Holy Spirit was the household of Cornelius (Acts 10) some ten years after Pentecost. You will find no evidence or implication that anyone else was baptized. The apostles did convey the Spirit with the laying on of their hands on many but that was not baptism with the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:14-17; 19:1-6). Can you see the Ethiopian eunuch of Acts 8 having received Holy Spirit baptism? Do you even see or understand if he even knew anything about Holy Spirit baptism? Find someone in the New Testament that received Holy Spirit baptism for the remission of sins or for salvation and I have no argument.
“Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.� (Isaiah 6:10 AV)
“In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. (2 Corinthians 4:4 AV)
These two verses show plainly that the Jews as a whole would not hear the gospel of Christ. They had hardened their hearts to the gospel. Why? For many reasons. Jesus was not their image of Messiah was the primary reason, I believe. However, a remnant did accept Christ in the first century and continued to accept throughout history and today.
It is not my intent to present a "holier-than-thou" attitude. I didn't think that was what I may have conveyed. I appreciate your question, but may I ask you, Who in the NT or OT has God filled with the Holy Spirit that was not first of all His spiritual child? Do you not imply that God puts the Spirit in those that He chooses in order that He may save them. Is that not right? If that is your understanding then what is the purpose of preaching the gospel? (Read Romans 1:16; Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16). Again, I request that you or anyone to show one convert to Christ that was baptized with the Holy Spirit in order to be saved. Show us one and I have no argument.
InChrist,
JustAChristian
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Aimiel
Well-known member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Answered JustAChristian?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Answered JustAChristian?
The baptism in The Holy Ghost is not for salvation, it is for sanctification. He gives much more personal guidance and direction to those who are open to this baptism, and will fill them, if they only believe Him for it. I have seen many who have never even heard of Holy Spirit Baptism become filled, without even being water baptized. God is not a legalist, since all things are legal to believers. We are under the perfect law of liberty. The Spirit of The Lord is still The One that spreads the only Perfect Liberty.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Answered JustAChristian?
I find plenty of implication in Acts 1--2 that at least 120 were baptized when The Holy Ghost was first poured out. I also find evidence of Him in His Word, as well as in my life, being Spirit-filled, myself. Jesus said that our Heavenly Father knows how to give Good Gifts to them that ask Him, and I asked Him.
Yes, it was.
I believe he might have, but we aren't told whether or not that ever happened to him.
I've never said that is His Purpose, or that anyone did any such nonsense. Where did you get that?
No one I've ever read (or heard) about.
I believe that it is His Purpose to draw us to Himself, and those that respond to that drawing are different. Some allow Him to work them on His Wheel (He's The Master Potter) and mature them, more than others allow. This results from the amount of hunger that He gives to us. Those redeemed from much will love much.
The baptism in The Holy Ghost is not for salvation, it is for sanctification. He gives much more personal guidance and direction to those who are open to this baptism, and will fill them, if they only believe Him for it. I have seen many who have never even heard of Holy Spirit Baptism become filled, without even being water baptized. God is not a legalist, since all things are legal to believers. We are under the perfect law of liberty. The Spirit of The Lord is still The One that spreads the only Perfect Liberty.
JustAChristian
New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Answered JustAChristian?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Answered JustAChristian?
It is alleged by some that the 120 also received Holy Ghost baptism in Acts 1--2, and they argue for a wide basis of baptism in the Holy Ghost. But the persons assembled together in Acts 2 that were filled with the Holy Spirit were not, as some have supposed, the one hundred and twenty disciples mentioned in a parenthesis in the previous chapter (Acts 1:15), but the twelve apostles. This is made certain by the grammatical connection between the first verse of chapter two and the last of the preceding. Taken together they read as follows: "And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place." This is also seen in Acts 2:14, "But Peter, standing up with the eleven..."
Peter remembered saying, “Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.� Unless you can prove that Jesus conveyed the power to baptize with the Holy Spirit to the apostles and that laying on of hands was the same then you are only assuming which is not proof. No where does Jesus tell the apostles that they too will baptize with the Holy Spirit.
It is your premise that he was, isn’t it? But, now you want everyone to be sidetracked with assumption. Either prove your premise or drop it.
You had earlier said, “Then why aren't the Jews of today seeing this and repenting. Did God simply respect first-century Jews more than those of today? Has He forgotten how to baptize people with The Holy Ghost? Did He take back The Gift that He gave? Is it because we're not good enough?� This clearly infers that you believed that Holy Spirit baptism has affect towards remission of sins. Do you believe or not believe Holy Spirit baptism was for the remission of sins? If not, then what baptism was Peter speaking of in Acts 2:38?
You said earlier, “...If He chooses to fill with His Holy Spirit someone who has been sprinkled, dunked or (Heaven forbid) not baptized at all, why should you resist The Hand of God?� You clearly say that God has potential to instill anyone with the Holy Spirit even the unsaved. However, the gift of the Holy Spirit (not the baptism) was given to the saved (Acts 2:38- 47).
You said, “The baptism in The Holy Ghost is not for salvation, it is for sanctification.� However, the text of John’s gospel has Jesus saying,�Santify them through thy truth thy word is truth.� So, by Jesus’ own words we see that God’s truth or word is the sanctifying agent and not the Holy Spirit. It is the fact though that the Holy Spirit was the guide into truth for the apostles (John 16:13). Further you say, “He gives much more personal guidance and direction to those who are open to this baptism, and will fill them, if they only believe Him for it.� To this I say, Pure assertion without scriptural basis. Still further you say, “I have seen many who have never even heard of Holy Spirit Baptism become filled, without even being water baptized.� All to which I say, Show one person from the scriptures that was “filled� with the Holy Spirit that was not first a child of God and I have no argument. The Holy Spirit does not work in that way.
JustAChristian :angel:
"...In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." (2 Timothy 2:25-26 AV)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Answered JustAChristian?
It is alleged by some that the 120 also received Holy Ghost baptism in Acts 1--2, and they argue for a wide basis of baptism in the Holy Ghost. But the persons assembled together in Acts 2 that were filled with the Holy Spirit were not, as some have supposed, the one hundred and twenty disciples mentioned in a parenthesis in the previous chapter (Acts 1:15), but the twelve apostles. This is made certain by the grammatical connection between the first verse of chapter two and the last of the preceding. Taken together they read as follows: "And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place." This is also seen in Acts 2:14, "But Peter, standing up with the eleven..."
Peter remembered saying, “Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.� Unless you can prove that Jesus conveyed the power to baptize with the Holy Spirit to the apostles and that laying on of hands was the same then you are only assuming which is not proof. No where does Jesus tell the apostles that they too will baptize with the Holy Spirit.
It is your premise that he was, isn’t it? But, now you want everyone to be sidetracked with assumption. Either prove your premise or drop it.
You had earlier said, “Then why aren't the Jews of today seeing this and repenting. Did God simply respect first-century Jews more than those of today? Has He forgotten how to baptize people with The Holy Ghost? Did He take back The Gift that He gave? Is it because we're not good enough?� This clearly infers that you believed that Holy Spirit baptism has affect towards remission of sins. Do you believe or not believe Holy Spirit baptism was for the remission of sins? If not, then what baptism was Peter speaking of in Acts 2:38?
You said earlier, “...If He chooses to fill with His Holy Spirit someone who has been sprinkled, dunked or (Heaven forbid) not baptized at all, why should you resist The Hand of God?� You clearly say that God has potential to instill anyone with the Holy Spirit even the unsaved. However, the gift of the Holy Spirit (not the baptism) was given to the saved (Acts 2:38- 47).
You said, “The baptism in The Holy Ghost is not for salvation, it is for sanctification.� However, the text of John’s gospel has Jesus saying,�Santify them through thy truth thy word is truth.� So, by Jesus’ own words we see that God’s truth or word is the sanctifying agent and not the Holy Spirit. It is the fact though that the Holy Spirit was the guide into truth for the apostles (John 16:13). Further you say, “He gives much more personal guidance and direction to those who are open to this baptism, and will fill them, if they only believe Him for it.� To this I say, Pure assertion without scriptural basis. Still further you say, “I have seen many who have never even heard of Holy Spirit Baptism become filled, without even being water baptized.� All to which I say, Show one person from the scriptures that was “filled� with the Holy Spirit that was not first a child of God and I have no argument. The Holy Spirit does not work in that way.
JustAChristian :angel:
"...In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." (2 Timothy 2:25-26 AV)
Aimiel
Well-known member
JustaSpiritFilledBeliever Replies...
JustaSpiritFilledBeliever Replies...
1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
1 Peter 1:2
...who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
After reading those, carefully, do you still wish to say that sanctification ONLY comes from The Word of God? Why are you so quick to jump on a simple printed page, which men have learned to twist to their own use, by careful manipulation of demons over centuries of plotting and much spiritual warfare and bloodshed? Why not believe that God's Spirit is still alive and that He is Omniscient and is perfectly capable of filling and indwelling believers, as He wills? He is, by the way, whether you believe that He is or not.
Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
JustaSpiritFilledBeliever Replies...
I don't think that the other 108 would have any desire, inclination or nearly enough knowledge to wish to stand up in front of strangers and speak about something which is so new and easily mis-understood by the most experienced of believers. I know when I was filled, I didn't have the first clue of what was happening, other than the fact that I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that it was God, because I had asked Him for this baptism, only a few moments before, and I was totally alone in my living room, at about 1:30 AM. I wasn't expecting anything like what happened, and didn't (for some time) know what to think or how this might effect my life or ministry.
I don't believe that anyone 'baptizes' with The Holy Spirit, except God. We minister, by the laying on of hands, which is obedience to Him, praying and believing God. He always responds to faith.
I do not, I have never said or meant to imply that I do. His duty and purpose (IMHO) is to convict, and then (in Spirit-filled believers) to lead, guide and direct us in all Truth. If you look at my signature, you'll see that God leads us by His Eye. The Holy Spirit 'brooded' upon the face of the deep before creation. He is The Eye.
Water. The Gift is His Presence, inside. Jesus said (to believers) that He was already 'with' them, but would (soon) be 'in' them. He meant that, after Pentecost, they would be 'filled' or baptized in His Presence.
No, I clearly didn't say or mean to imply and don't believe that anyone who is an un-believer can be filled with God's Presence. He has (to my knowledge) never filled anyone with The Holy Ghost who was not first a believer. I have seen them get saved, and speak in tongues instantly. The Power of God is awesome, and many who are convicted often repent and become filled right away.
Amen and amen. He is The Earnest of our inheritance.
Yes, that is one part of what God can use to bring some sanctification to men, but I believe that you're limiting God. Maybe you should read just a few more Scriptures:
1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
1 Peter 1:2
...who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
After reading those, carefully, do you still wish to say that sanctification ONLY comes from The Word of God? Why are you so quick to jump on a simple printed page, which men have learned to twist to their own use, by careful manipulation of demons over centuries of plotting and much spiritual warfare and bloodshed? Why not believe that God's Spirit is still alive and that He is Omniscient and is perfectly capable of filling and indwelling believers, as He wills? He is, by the way, whether you believe that He is or not.
Really? No Scriptural basis? Assertion? Do you believe that He gives The Holy Spirit to those who are saved but don't want to be filled? He doesn't work like that. That would be forcing Himself upon us, and He is A Perfect Gentleman. He is Good, and there is not even a shadow of turning in Him. Here is a Scripture, which provides a base for believing that you have to ask to receive:
Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Apparently you are a 'legalist' and don't believe that someone is saved until they are baptized in water. I don't believe that God places us back under the law, after liberating us from it with His Own Blood. We're saved by grace, through faith, not by works or any other formula that you or anyone else might hold to because of your dogma.
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
Daniel50
New member
Re: Where Does The Bible Say...?
Re: Where Does The Bible Say...?
Jn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name:
Galatians
3:26For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus. 3:27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 3:29If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to promise.
Re: Where Does The Bible Say...?
Jn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name:
Galatians
3:26For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus. 3:27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 3:29If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to promise.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Does the context of Romans 9...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Does the context of Romans 9...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Does the context of Romans 9...
there is initial repentance that appears to be before salvation, but you can't really call it repentance, until you have actually not done the sins you used to do... And salvation is given to those who have made the decision to repent. Before they actually live in that repentance. And once you are in Christ, you live in repentance. Living in repentance is a reaction to God's grace and love. And that love effects us in a way that we return it. God's love causes us to love Him back, and by that love we obey/live in repentance.
Initial belief is not from God, or it would not be free will. And faith [trust and love], which is different than belief, is affected by God's grace and love. He draws all men, but not all men believe.
Re: Re: Re: Answered JustAChristian?
Re: Re: Re: Answered JustAChristian?
Also...what Aimiel said.
Re: Re: Re: Answered JustAChristian?
:vomit:
Only for these things?
I have been drowned in the blood of Christ. My sins have been nailed to the cross. I have been cleansed from all unrighteousness.
:vomit:
Also...what Aimiel said.
Don't you mean, "JustAHeretic"?
JustAChristian
New member
Re: JustaSpiritFilledBeliever Replies...
Re: JustaSpiritFilledBeliever Replies...
Aimiel,
You are confused with the word of God. Sanctification is clearly taught to be through the word. The Holy Spirit is the worker (agent) that presented the word that sanctifies. The Holy Spirit does not produce the sanctification but it does come through a knowledge and use of truth.
I am going to post an article that I believe will assist you in better understanding of salvation through obedience of God's word.
HOW DOES GOD AFFECT SALVATION IN THE SINNER?
There are but two passages of Scripture that we can recall, that tells us how one gets into Christ. In Rom. 6:3 Paul wrote, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" Again he wrote, "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Gal. 3:27). How does one get into Christ? Paul's answer -- one is "baptized into Christ." There is no other way into Christ! We get into Christ in precisely the same way that we get into the one body (1 Cor. 12:13), therefore, being in Christ is the same thing as being in his body, the church.
Symbolism needs to be understood in order to give proper biblical interpretation. Water is symbolized as a grave in Romans 6. We are buried in the grave of water. A grave consist of a hole, dirt and covering up. When we understand this we can understand the implications of the burial. Not only did Paul say that we are baptized into Jesus Christ (Rom. 6:3), but he goes on to say that we are "baptized into his death." It was in Christ's death that he shed his blood, and his blood is that which remits sin. However, we must come into contact with his blood before our sins can be remitted. Where do we contact the blood of Christ? Paul tells us that it is in baptism. If he shed his blood in his death (and he did), and we are baptized into his death (and we are), then it is in baptism that we come into contact with the blood of Christ, which is able to remit sin. If not, why not?
In the latter part of Gal. 3:27, Paul states that in baptism we "put on Christ." Again we come to symbolism. This can not be accomplished in Holy Spirit, for the Spirit would be put on us. We would not be putting on Christ. Let me use a very simple illustration which all should be able to understand. Until a person puts on his coat, he is out of the coat. Once he has put the coat on, he is in the coat. Just so it is in our relation to Christ. We are out of Christ until we put Christ on, and Paul plainly states that we put Christ on in baptism. Therefore, until one is baptized "into Christ" he is out of Christ, because he has not put Christ on! I can hardly see how anyone can possibly misunderstand such plain, simple language, and yet there are thousands who seemingly cannot understand this, because they shout long and loud that baptism is not essential to salvation.
The apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit and those who believed Peter's preaching were baptized in water in the name of Christ on the same day. Cornelius was baptized with the Holy Spirit and the same day, likely within the same hour, was baptized in water in the name of Christ.
Jesus told Nicodemus that without being "born of water and of the Spirit" one can not enter this spiritual family, the church (John 3:1-8). "Born of water and of the Spirit" refers to the one new birth, accomplished when one is baptized in water according to (or, as directed by) the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-5). Holy Spirit baptism was never meant for all people. Many examples are shown in Acts of people who were not Holy Spirit baptized but rejoiced in their relationship to Christ.
Holy Spirit baptism was never given as a command. How could it be? It was administered by deity, not men. And it was administered at a time and under circumstances chosen by deity, not by men. Water baptism, on the other hand, was given by command (Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47,48; Acts 22:16). This is a baptism administered by men, and when performed scripturally is approved of God. And it is a baptism men submit to of their own free will. At a time of their choosing, in obedience to the Lord's command.
The one baptism of Eph. 4 is Christian era baptism. It is the baptism that is commanded. And it was designed to remain in effect until the end of the earth (Matthew 28:18-20). It is not the baptism of John. It is not the baptism of fire. And it is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Christian era baptism consists of immersion in water (Acts 8:38). Its prerequisites are faith, repentance, and confession (Mark 16:15,16; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:37). It, therefore, is not for infants. It is administered in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19,20). And, it is for the remission of sins and for union with Christ (Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Galatians 3 :26-27; Romans 6:3-5).
Summarizing, let me say that baptism is the door to forgiveness of sins. Why?, because it is at this point of obedience that one comes in contact with the death of Christ. It is only in the death of Christ that we may find salvation. And it is only in baptism that we may contact the death of Christ (Rom. 6:1-6). Paul affirms that we are baptized into his death, that is the death of Christ, and that is very important. Some contend that baptism only symbolizes a dying to sin on our part, in turning from our sins; that the only death connected with baptism is the spiritual dying to sin that occurs within us. But this simply is not true. It is true that a dying to sin occurs within us in conversion. But it is not true that this dying to sin is all that baptism represents. Paul's teaching is that we are baptized into the death of Jesus. So remember, now, we are baptized into the one body (1 Cor. 12:13); Christ is the savior of the body (Eph. 5:23); we are baptized into Christ (Rom. 6:3; Gal. 3:27); into his death (Rom. 6:3) where his blood was shed; and in baptism we put on Christ (Gal. 3:27). In view of such plain passages, how can you honestly feel that water baptism is unimportant and has no validity? How can you say that we can be cleansed and saved any other way?
JustAChristian
Re: JustaSpiritFilledBeliever Replies...
Aimiel,
You are confused with the word of God. Sanctification is clearly taught to be through the word. The Holy Spirit is the worker (agent) that presented the word that sanctifies. The Holy Spirit does not produce the sanctification but it does come through a knowledge and use of truth.
I am going to post an article that I believe will assist you in better understanding of salvation through obedience of God's word.
HOW DOES GOD AFFECT SALVATION IN THE SINNER?
There are but two passages of Scripture that we can recall, that tells us how one gets into Christ. In Rom. 6:3 Paul wrote, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" Again he wrote, "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Gal. 3:27). How does one get into Christ? Paul's answer -- one is "baptized into Christ." There is no other way into Christ! We get into Christ in precisely the same way that we get into the one body (1 Cor. 12:13), therefore, being in Christ is the same thing as being in his body, the church.
Symbolism needs to be understood in order to give proper biblical interpretation. Water is symbolized as a grave in Romans 6. We are buried in the grave of water. A grave consist of a hole, dirt and covering up. When we understand this we can understand the implications of the burial. Not only did Paul say that we are baptized into Jesus Christ (Rom. 6:3), but he goes on to say that we are "baptized into his death." It was in Christ's death that he shed his blood, and his blood is that which remits sin. However, we must come into contact with his blood before our sins can be remitted. Where do we contact the blood of Christ? Paul tells us that it is in baptism. If he shed his blood in his death (and he did), and we are baptized into his death (and we are), then it is in baptism that we come into contact with the blood of Christ, which is able to remit sin. If not, why not?
In the latter part of Gal. 3:27, Paul states that in baptism we "put on Christ." Again we come to symbolism. This can not be accomplished in Holy Spirit, for the Spirit would be put on us. We would not be putting on Christ. Let me use a very simple illustration which all should be able to understand. Until a person puts on his coat, he is out of the coat. Once he has put the coat on, he is in the coat. Just so it is in our relation to Christ. We are out of Christ until we put Christ on, and Paul plainly states that we put Christ on in baptism. Therefore, until one is baptized "into Christ" he is out of Christ, because he has not put Christ on! I can hardly see how anyone can possibly misunderstand such plain, simple language, and yet there are thousands who seemingly cannot understand this, because they shout long and loud that baptism is not essential to salvation.
The apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit and those who believed Peter's preaching were baptized in water in the name of Christ on the same day. Cornelius was baptized with the Holy Spirit and the same day, likely within the same hour, was baptized in water in the name of Christ.
Jesus told Nicodemus that without being "born of water and of the Spirit" one can not enter this spiritual family, the church (John 3:1-8). "Born of water and of the Spirit" refers to the one new birth, accomplished when one is baptized in water according to (or, as directed by) the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-5). Holy Spirit baptism was never meant for all people. Many examples are shown in Acts of people who were not Holy Spirit baptized but rejoiced in their relationship to Christ.
Holy Spirit baptism was never given as a command. How could it be? It was administered by deity, not men. And it was administered at a time and under circumstances chosen by deity, not by men. Water baptism, on the other hand, was given by command (Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47,48; Acts 22:16). This is a baptism administered by men, and when performed scripturally is approved of God. And it is a baptism men submit to of their own free will. At a time of their choosing, in obedience to the Lord's command.
The one baptism of Eph. 4 is Christian era baptism. It is the baptism that is commanded. And it was designed to remain in effect until the end of the earth (Matthew 28:18-20). It is not the baptism of John. It is not the baptism of fire. And it is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Christian era baptism consists of immersion in water (Acts 8:38). Its prerequisites are faith, repentance, and confession (Mark 16:15,16; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:37). It, therefore, is not for infants. It is administered in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19,20). And, it is for the remission of sins and for union with Christ (Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Galatians 3 :26-27; Romans 6:3-5).
Summarizing, let me say that baptism is the door to forgiveness of sins. Why?, because it is at this point of obedience that one comes in contact with the death of Christ. It is only in the death of Christ that we may find salvation. And it is only in baptism that we may contact the death of Christ (Rom. 6:1-6). Paul affirms that we are baptized into his death, that is the death of Christ, and that is very important. Some contend that baptism only symbolizes a dying to sin on our part, in turning from our sins; that the only death connected with baptism is the spiritual dying to sin that occurs within us. But this simply is not true. It is true that a dying to sin occurs within us in conversion. But it is not true that this dying to sin is all that baptism represents. Paul's teaching is that we are baptized into the death of Jesus. So remember, now, we are baptized into the one body (1 Cor. 12:13); Christ is the savior of the body (Eph. 5:23); we are baptized into Christ (Rom. 6:3; Gal. 3:27); into his death (Rom. 6:3) where his blood was shed; and in baptism we put on Christ (Gal. 3:27). In view of such plain passages, how can you honestly feel that water baptism is unimportant and has no validity? How can you say that we can be cleansed and saved any other way?
JustAChristian
Aimiel
Well-known member
Belief, whether 'initial' or your 'faith' which you have religiously labeled as trust and love, is like any other good and perfect gift, and it comes from above. He is The Giver of all good gifts, and our very lives are from Him. No one can claim that they have or are anything, except they received it from The Source of all that there is: God. :think:
Aimiel
Well-known member
Do you believe that someone who hears The Word of God, and repents, asks Him into their heart, to forgive their sin, and then is shot, dead, will go to hell, since they haven't been baptized in water? I, personally, don't believe that someone that is not filled with the spirit doesn't belong to God, as the Scripture says: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." I believe that The Holy Spirit is 'with' everyone who is saved, even before they get saved. He is The One that convicts them, before their salvation. He, also, is The One Who will come inside of them, if they invite Him. If they deny Him entrance, He cannot, because that is His Nature. He doesn't occupy anything that isn't surrendered to Him.
JustAChristian
New member
We don't make the rules!
We don't make the rules!
You see, Aimiel, you come up with all kinds of hypothetical ideas trying to gain sympathy from the audience, but you've got to understand that you and I or anyone elso does not make the rules. God has set the parameters through Jesus Christ You use the expression "ask him into your heart" when such an action is not found in the scriptures. Cornelius was told to send to Joppa to one Simon called Peter who "...will tell thee what thou aughtist to do." Why didn't the angel of God just tell Cornelius to let Jesus come into your heart? It was because God had set the parameter that by the knowledge and obedience to the gospel one would be saved (Matthew 28:18-20; Romans 1:16; 2 Thess. 1 :7-8). Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). When one hears the commands of the gospel and is obedient to them then comes cleansing and salvation (Mark 16:15-16). You believe that the Spirit of God can dwell in a person, but tell us, how does it get there? Does it materialize there seperate and apart from knowing and obeying the word of God? If so, give some proof from the scriptures. To save you time, let's let Paul answer. "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Gal. 3:2). Paul strongly asserts that receiving the Spirit comes by hearing of faith. One receives the Spirit when he does what the Spirit says through the word. He can not come into a heart unless that heart will hear the gospel, the power of God unto salvation. The gospel says that we must believe in Jesus as God's Son, repent of sins in our lives, confess Christ before man, be immersed into Christ for the cleansing and remission of our sins and endure in righteousness until Christ returns. Will you hear the gospel call or will you stubbornly continue in you unrighteous state?
In Christ,
JustAChristian
“...Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.� (1 Peter 1:21-23 AV)
We don't make the rules!
You see, Aimiel, you come up with all kinds of hypothetical ideas trying to gain sympathy from the audience, but you've got to understand that you and I or anyone elso does not make the rules. God has set the parameters through Jesus Christ You use the expression "ask him into your heart" when such an action is not found in the scriptures. Cornelius was told to send to Joppa to one Simon called Peter who "...will tell thee what thou aughtist to do." Why didn't the angel of God just tell Cornelius to let Jesus come into your heart? It was because God had set the parameter that by the knowledge and obedience to the gospel one would be saved (Matthew 28:18-20; Romans 1:16; 2 Thess. 1 :7-8). Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). When one hears the commands of the gospel and is obedient to them then comes cleansing and salvation (Mark 16:15-16). You believe that the Spirit of God can dwell in a person, but tell us, how does it get there? Does it materialize there seperate and apart from knowing and obeying the word of God? If so, give some proof from the scriptures. To save you time, let's let Paul answer. "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Gal. 3:2). Paul strongly asserts that receiving the Spirit comes by hearing of faith. One receives the Spirit when he does what the Spirit says through the word. He can not come into a heart unless that heart will hear the gospel, the power of God unto salvation. The gospel says that we must believe in Jesus as God's Son, repent of sins in our lives, confess Christ before man, be immersed into Christ for the cleansing and remission of our sins and endure in righteousness until Christ returns. Will you hear the gospel call or will you stubbornly continue in you unrighteous state?
In Christ,
JustAChristian
“...Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.� (1 Peter 1:21-23 AV)
Aimiel
Well-known member
Re: We don't make the rules!
Re: We don't make the rules!
Re: We don't make the rules!
Now The Lord is That Spirit, and where The Spirit of The Lord is, there is liberty. He is NOT an 'it' and prefers to be called Him, He, The Lord or The Spirit of The Lord. He enters them only when and if invited. Before that, He can be 'with' them, but will not violate their freewill, by entering their flesh, without permission. He is A Perfect Gentleman.
I think somebody put me on ignore. :think:
Aimiel-
I agree with you, to a point. But I think it would be Predestination/election if believing God is real were given from him.
Aimiel-
I agree with you, to a point. But I think it would be Predestination/election if believing God is real were given from him.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Re: We don't make the rules!
Re: We don't make the rules!
P.S. I'm not writing to an audience of more than two. I write before The Lord, and care more deeply about not placing anything on a post that I want, but what should point someone to the truth than you can imagine. I wouldn't be on TOL if I didn't. That was one of the things that The Lord directed me to do, before allowing me to come back here.
Re: We don't make the rules!
I believe that it was to demonstrate that believers are to share The Gospel. The angels are used to declare current events, and to intervene on The Lord's Behalf, but not to preach The Everlasting Gospel. At least for now. We have our appointed time. When that time is fulfilled, angels will be released with The Gospel, as The Word says. If you don't like the sinners' prayer, I don't mind, but why should I, since God isn't religious? He doesn't hold us to the law, or to any denominational boundaries or prevent us from believing Him. We do that on our own. When we choose to take Him at His Word is when we advance in His Kingdom. The advance occurs by finding out what He wants you to step into next, and then taking that step. If you don't, you're either stagnating or slipping off of His Holy Mountain. We need to learn to help one another ascend this thing, and then once we meet together with Him, at the top, sit down for a good pow-wow, get His Plans and Strategies for our lives, and for those He sends us to, we can begin to move this mountain to the place He intends for us to take it; namely: the gates of hell. We aren't going to tear them down with people that are stuck arguing over dunked, sprinkled or frickaseed; it is going to be His Spirit guiding us over the roughest terrain imaginable, with the heaviest burden anyone has ever carried.
P.S. I'm not writing to an audience of more than two. I write before The Lord, and care more deeply about not placing anything on a post that I want, but what should point someone to the truth than you can imagine. I wouldn't be on TOL if I didn't. That was one of the things that The Lord directed me to do, before allowing me to come back here.