Where Does The Bible Say...? (HOF thread)

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by JustAChristian

Sorry, you've failed the test! Jesus said that one must be born again of water and the spirit. You left out an essential part. Do you suppose that God will accept you in your sins? He wouldn't accept Paul (Read Acts 22:16). Do you suppose those who heard Peter and the apostles on the day of Pentecost, if they rejected their preaching (Peter and the other apostles) who said they must repent and be baptized for the remission of sins, failed to heed the command that God would accept them? I don't think so! To be baptism for the remission of sins is a command of Jesus Christ (Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16). It is the way one gets into Christ (Galatians 3:27). We are buried and raised with Christ in baptism (Romans 6:3-5). The Bible says that Baptism also now saves us (1 Peter 3:21). You read all this and reject the commandment? How then do you contact the cleansing blood of Christ?

JustAChristian

First of all, where in my post did you see me say that I was not baptized with water? I have been baptized in water. But that had nothing to do with my salvation. Was Paul saved on the road to Damascus, or was it not until he was baptized? What about the thief on the cross? There is only one baptism.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

I don't see that saying baptism saves you.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

See above.

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Ditto.

Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Again, no mention of salvation.

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

And yet again.

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Just like the rest.

 

[JustAChristian]

Responding to lighthouse...

Responding to lighthouse...

Originally posted by lighthouse

First of all, where in my post did you see me say that I was not baptized with water? I have been baptized in water. But that had nothing to do with my salvation. Was Paul saved on the road to Damascus, or was it not until he was baptized? What about the thief on the cross? There is only one baptism.


I don't see that saying baptism saves you.


See above.


Ditto.


Again, no mention of salvation.


And yet again.


Just like the rest.

First of all, where in my post did you see me say that I was not baptized with water? I have been baptized in water. But that had nothing to do with my salvation. Was Paul saved on the road to Damascus, or was it not until he was baptized? What about the thief on the cross? There is only one baptism.

I don't doubt your water baptism. I doubt your purpose in being baptized. If it was not to wash away sins (Acts 22:16) it was not for the right reason. If it was not to get into Christ (Galatians 3:27) it was not for the right reason. If it was not to receive the purchase by the blood of Christ (Acts 20:28) it was not for the right reason. If it was not in order to be saved (Mark 16:16) it was not for the right reason. Etc... Was Paul saved on the road to Damascus? If he was then he was saved while still retaining his sins (Acts 22:16). What about the thief on the cross? The thief on the cross was not amenable to the gospel of Christ, the New Covenant ratified at Jesus' death, (Hebrews 9:17) for he was subject to the Old Covenant, the Mosaic Law which did not specify baptism. There is indeed only one baptism. If you say that it is Holy Spirit baptism then why were you water baptized?

I don't see where baptism saves you.

You should go to 1 Peter 3:21 for that statement.

See above.

And I say "See above at 1 Peter 3:21."

Ditto.

Do I note a pattern here? Chect 1 Peter 3:21 and Mark 16:16

Again, no mention of salvation.

I hope you want continue to limited yourself so much that you will not be willing to search out the truth. I ask you to be more conscience of Mark 16:15-16, Acts 2:38, Acts 10: 47-48, Acts 19:1-6, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-5, and 1 Peter 3:21 as you choose to make your entries.

And yet again.

Does not this context show that Peter command the household of Cornelius to be baptized in water? Why? If they were cleansed of sins before water baptism were they still in their sins after they were baptized? Why do you suppose Peter commanded them to be baptized?

Just like the rest.

Check this verse out..."Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently" (1 Peter 1:22 AV) Isn't it showing that obedience to the truth, the gospel, is essential to purifing the soul. How did Peter tell those on Pentecost to react to the preaching of the gospel? Read Acts 2:38 for the enlightening answer. yes, baptism for the remission of sins is essential for salvation.

JustAChristian :angel:

 

[JustAChristian]

Do You Understand The ONE Baptism of Epehesians 4:5?

Do You Understand The ONE Baptism of Epehesians 4:5?

There is only ONE recognized baptism. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism," (Eph 4:5)
There is not a spiritual baptism and a water baptism. The baptism recognized is the one instituted by Christ himself, which He said was in order to "fulfill ALL righteousness" (Mt 3:15). Even though Jesus was not baptized for the remission of sins, His baptism is the pattern for the baptism that is now recognized by God; one in which God becomes well-pleased in the one being baptized(Mt 3:17), one in which the Holy Spirit is received(Mt 3:16), one in which in its very form depicts the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus(Mt 3:16: "come UP straight way out of the WATER)--our baptism is validated by the events surrounding Christ's baptism.

JustAChristian

 

[Nineveh]

JAC,
Would you say Salvation could be withheld from a person who has repented if a "clergy" refused to baptise them with water?

 

[Lighthouse]

My water baptism was a way to say that I had chosen to partake in the death and resurrection of Christ. It was not a decleration to God, it was a declaration to mankind. I made my declaration to God with my mouth, when I confessed. You're going to make me throw up. You spew venom like the viper you are.

"Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission for sin."
-Hebrews 9:22

And none of those verses say that baptism is necessary for salvation. All they say is that when one is baptised with the intent of a declaration of faith in Christ, then they are saved. But they never say that baptism has to be a part of that declaration.

"For if you tell others with your own mouth that Jesus Christ is your Lord, and believe in your own heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
-Roman 10:9

Searching...searching...searching...nope! Nothing about baptism being necessary for salvation.

 

[JustAChristian]

Is Salvation Contingent On Obedience?

Is Salvation Contingent On Obedience?

Baptism is the point at which a person is IN CHRIST. We are joined to the Lord at this time. "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have PUT ON Christ." (Gal 3:27)

The apostle Peter ordered for converts in Cornelius' household to be baptized. "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." (Acts 10:47-48)
The apostle Paul commended the believers at Rome for their baptism "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that FORM of doctrine which was delivered you."(Rom 6:17)

At Pentecost, in the midst of Peter's sermon, the adherents to his message were pricked in their hearts and asked Peter, "What shall we do?"--moved to repentance. "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

Baptism is not a "good work", meaning that in baptism I am trying to earn my salvation. Baptism is the response of faith. Faith ALWAYS obeys--the "obedience OF FAITH" (Rom 16:26). In Mt 28:18ff, Jesus called for the baptism of all believers, and every TRUE believer seeks to do what pleases Jesus. Baptism is the working of faith in submissive response to the command of Jesus.

Some may say, if baptism saves us, then what about the theif on the cross? This is a special acception. Believe me, if that thief could have come down from that cross to be baptized, he would have done so! Doctrines that shape our consideration of baptism can not be shaped around this single incident. If this was a pattern for sound theology than we might as well start teaching that every person who lies will die instantly, as Ananias and Sapphira did.

In Christ,
JustAChristian :angel:

 

[Nineveh]

Was my question too long?

 

[JustAChristian]

Answering Nineveh on Baptism...

Answering Nineveh on Baptism...

Originally posted by Nineveh

JAC,
Would you say Salvation could be withheld from a person who has repented if a "clergy" refused to baptise them with water?

Sorry for the oversight. I just missed this. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

I wonder why someone would withhold baptism from a requestee. If one has repented of sins and confessed Christ as the Son of God, I am sure that there is some one out there that will baptize him for the remission of sins. Every minister or elder in the Church of Christ would gladly assist that person in obeying the gospel. If you would like more direct information on who to contact please send me an e-mail. You asked if salvation would be withheld if a "clergy" refused to baptize the candidate? God is a God of mercy and grace and I believe that whatever He did would be the right thing to do but as for my understanding, yes, I do believe salvation would be withheld and for this reason. It is essential to complete all the counsel of God in obedience of faith. Cornelius was told to contect Peter in Joppa in order that he could learn what is essential to be saved. It was essential then that he obey the command to be saved in Acts 10. The Ethopian nobleman was show the essentially of being baptized immediatey or at least this is strongly suggested in Acts 8. Baptism was shown to have been done immediately after it was understood by Lydia and the Philippian jailor in Acts 16. I don't find any case where baptism was suggested to be a option or was ever delayed when it was understood by the candidate its intended purpose. I hope I have answered you question satisfactory. Have a great rest of the day.

In Christ,
JustAChristian :angel:

 

[Nineveh]

Re: Answering Nineveh on Baptism...

Re: Answering Nineveh on Baptism...

Originally posted by JustAChristian

Sorry for the oversight. I just missed this. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Thank you for replying

You asked if salvation would be withheld if a "clergy" refused to baptize the candidate? yes, I do believe salvation would be withheld and for this reason.

So men have control over who is and is not admitted into the Body?

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: Re: Answering Nineveh on Baptism...

Re: Re: Answering Nineveh on Baptism...

Originally posted by Nineveh

Thank you for replying



So men have control over who is and is not admitted into the Body?

Come let us reason together. Does man have control over who is and is not admitted into the body? Not actively for the Lord adds to the church (Acts 2:47), but the Bible does say one must obey the gospel (Romans 1:16; Hebrews 5:8-9; Romans 10:16). Entrance into the body of Christ the church is through obeying the commandment of baptism (Galatians 3:27; Col. 1:18; Acts 2:38). The same thing that saves also puts one into the body (1 Peter 3:21; Romans 6:3-5; Acts 2:41-47; Romans 6:17). If one knows what is essential to be saved and added to the body of Christ the church, and does not do that then to him or her it is a sin (James 4:17). No one with sin shall inherit the kingdom of God in heaven(Revelation 21:27). Jesus set the paramaters of salvation. Man carries them out to the in obedience of faith (Romans 1:5). Disobedience is the only barrier for condemnation (2 Thess. 1:7-10).

In Christ,
JustAChristian :angel:

 

[Nineveh]

Men do not know the heart of other men. Let's suppose a really bad character has really repented, went through that heart changing moment of his life where he accepts Christ. He then goes to be baptised with water and the "clergy" are not compelled. Does this "cergy" control this man's admittance into the Body or not?

 

[billwald]

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. "

Then GW Bush is the personal president for every military person who was sworn in this year? And the USofA is the personal country of everyone who says the Pledge of A?

 

[Lighthouse]

JustAChristian-
John the baptist said, "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he [Jesus] who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry; he [Jesus] will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." [Mt. 3:11] You will also find him quoted in Mark 1:7-8 and Luke 3:16. And John 1:33 also has John the Baptist stating that God told him Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit.

And Paul wrote: "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all." [Eph. 4:4-6]

And to answer why I was baptized: It was when I was younger. When I did not know Ephesians 4:4-6. But I never thought baptism saved me. I was saved before I got baptised. By at least a couple of years, if not more.

 

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by Nineveh

Men do not know the heart of other men. Let's suppose a really bad character has really repented, went through that heart changing moment of his life where he accepts Christ. He then goes to be baptised with water and the "clergy" are not compelled. Does this "cergy" control this man's admittance into the Body or not?

In the heart of man lies many evil devices. I am sure there are "clergy" that would not perform a immersional rite, but one is not compelled to use only one "clergy." I told you earlier of those who would do that which is essential. Baptism is essential and will be done if the intendee seeks the person out that will perform it. The only person that controls entrance into the the church is Jesus (John 10:7). He says that salvation is in the church (John 10:9; Acts 2:47). Please don't limit yourself by believing a black robe and white collar defines who will be saved. God is older than black robes and white collars.

In Christ,
JustAChristian

 

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by lighthouse

JustAChristian-
John the baptist said, "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he [Jesus] who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry; he [Jesus] will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." [Mt. 3:11] You will also find him quoted in Mark 1:7-8 and Luke 3:16. And John 1:33 also has John the Baptist stating that God told him Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit.

And Paul wrote: "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all." [Eph. 4:4-6]

And to answer why I was baptized: It was when I was younger. When I did not know Ephesians 4:4-6. But I never thought baptism saved me. I was saved before I got baptised. By at least a couple of years, if not more.

John the baptist said, "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he [Jesus] who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry; he [Jesus] will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." [Mt. 3:11] You will also find him quoted in Mark 1:7-8 and Luke 3:16. And John 1:33 also has John the Baptist stating that God told him Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit.

I gather that you are one that believes everyone will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Will they also be baptized with fire? How will this be? When will the baptism with fire be? Were first century Christians baptized with fire? If you do not believe all Christians will be baptized with fire, then perhaps all will not be baptized with the Holy Spirit. I believe only the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit to receive power to perform as promised (Acts 1:8), and the household of Cornelius in Acts 10 to convenience the Jews that salvation was being offered to the Gentiles (Acts 11:15-17). Context of Peter's discourse with the Jews seems strongly to indicate that no manifestations of the baptism with the Holy Spirit until the time of Cornelius' experience was ever seen. Wouldn't you agree? Thus, want you agree that all Christians were not baptized with the Holy Spirit?

And Paul wrote: "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all." [Eph. 4:4-6]

This is my understanding also. There is ONE baptism for today. This could not be HOLY SPIRIT baptism for the reason that all Christians are not shown to be baptized. Likewise, the baptism with the Holy Spirit was never to save but to instill power (Acts 1:8) and give evidence to the will of God (Acts 11L15-17).

And to answer why I was baptized: It was when I was younger. When I did not know Ephesians 4:4-6. But I never thought baptism saved me. I was saved before I got baptised. By at least a couple of years, if not more.

If you were saved before you were baptized for the remission of sins then you were saved before you put on Christ (Galatians 3:27).

If you were saved before you were baptized for the remission of sins then you were saved without receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; Romans 8:9).

If you were saved before you were baptized for the remission of sins then you were saved before you were united with Christ (Romans 6:3-5).

If you were saved before you were baptized for the remission of sins then you were saved before you obeyed from the heart the form of doctrine which is baptism (Romans 6:17).

If you were saved before you were baptized for the remission of sins then you were saved while still in your sins (Acts 22:16; Romans 6:18).

Do you believe this is the case for you? Do you really believe you have been saved based on the above arguments?

JustAChristian :angel:

 

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by JustAChristian
Baptism is essential and will be done if the intendee seeks the person out that will perform it.

Either a "clergy" ( or whatever word you need to use ) has control to open and close the gates of heaven or they do not. Which is it?

The only person that controls entrance into the the church is Jesus

I think so... yet you feel the need to include a "right men perform" + Jesus.

He says that salvation is in the church

I understand Church = the Body of Christ.

Do you really believe water has the power to change a man's heart, make him repentant, and make him accept Christ?

 

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by Nineveh

Either a "clergy" ( or whatever word you need to use ) has control to open and close the gates of heaven or they do not. Which is it?



I think so... yet you feel the need to include a "right men perform" + Jesus.



I understand Church = the Body of Christ.

Do you really believe water has the power to change a man's heart, make him repentant, and make him accept Christ?

Either a "clergy" ( or whatever word you need to use ) has control to open and close the gates of heaven or they do not. Which is it?

Let me suggest you review the commission of Matthew 28:18-20. You will see that Jesus sent his apostles into all the world to make disciples by baptizing and teaching them. The person is only performing the will of God. They have no authority beyond that commissioned by Christ. No individual other than Christ opens or closes any door into the kingdom of God as you seem to want to argue.

Do you really believe water has the power to change a man's heart, make him repentant, and make him accept Christ?

Water only acts as the medium through which the will of God is performed. It has no cleansing power of itself. It is the "burial source" in obedience. Jesus shed his blood in his death. One is united to Christ in his death through baptism. When one obeys from the heart the form of the doctrine (the fact being actual dying) then he or she is obedient to the command of Christ to be baptized (Acts 10:47-49; Acts 2:38; Acts 19:1-6). It is the act of baptism in water to contact the spiritual application of the cleansing blood that saves (Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21) and not the water. I hope you come to see this

By the way, do you check the scriptural references I give you or am I wasting my time?

In Christ,
JustAChristian :angel:

 

[Nineveh]

JAC,
"the medium through which the will of God is performed"

The Holy Spirit that Baptised me did not come through a "medium". I was alone, repentant, and humbled before a Mighty God.

"When one obeys from the heart the form of the doctrine ..."

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

"It is the act of baptism in water to contact the spiritual application of the cleansing blood that saves."

This sound like outright paganism, do you realize that?

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by JustAChristian

I gather that you are one that believes everyone will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Will they also be baptized with fire? How will this be? When will the baptism with fire be? Were first century Christians baptized with fire? If you do not believe all Christians will be baptized with fire, then perhaps all will not be baptized with the Holy Spirit. I believe only the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit to receive power to perform as promised (Acts 1:8), and the household of Cornelius in Acts 10 to convenience the Jews that salvation was being offered to the Gentiles (Acts 11:15-17). Context of Peter's discourse with the Jews seems strongly to indicate that no manifestations of the baptism with the Holy Spirit until the time of Cornelius' experience was ever seen. Wouldn't you agree? Thus, want you agree that all Christians were not baptized with the Holy Spirit?

John the baptist was not talking to the disciples, he was talking to everyone present. And the fire he was speaking of is the fire of God. Not a physical fire. All christians are baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire.

This is my understanding also. There is ONE baptism for today. This could not be HOLY SPIRIT baptism for the reason that all Christians are not shown to be baptized. Likewise, the baptism with the Holy Spirit was never to save but to instill power (Acts 1:8) and give evidence to the will of God (Acts 11L15-17).

Not all Christians are shown to be baptized with what? The Holy Spirit, or water?

If you were saved before you were baptized for the remission of sins then you were saved before you put on Christ (Galatians 3:27).

If you were saved before you were baptized for the remission of sins then you were saved without receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; Romans 8:9).

If you were saved before you were baptized for the remission of sins then you were saved before you were united with Christ (Romans 6:3-5).

If you were saved before you were baptized for the remission of sins then you were saved before you obeyed from the heart the form of doctrine which is baptism (Romans 6:17).

If you were saved before you were baptized for the remission of sins then you were saved while still in your sins (Acts 22:16; Romans 6:18).

Do you believe this is the case for you? Do you really believe you have been saved based on the above arguments?

JustAChristian :angel:

Yes. I was asaved before being baptized. And, in my salvation, I put on Christ...and received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

is there a reason you don't want to address Romans 10:9?

 

[OMEGA]

People do NOT accept Jesus .

Jesus accepts and chooses them.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;

and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father

which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Acts 24:3 We accept it always, and in all places,

most noble Felix, with all thankfulness.